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Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 kodos wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Because if there's a non-GW set of Contrast-type paints I'd love to buy some.

Army Painter Quickshade, Vallejo Game Ink, Liquitex Acrylic Ink, Tamiya Acrylic Color Clear, GreenStuffWorld Intensity Ink etc.

or mix Acrylic Medium (like Liquitex Matte Medium) 1:1 with Airbrush Flow Improver and add any fine high pigment colour you want to create your own Contrast paint
(eg Creatix Airbrush Color works already like Contrast if diluted 1:1 with water)

from comparison, GW did a good job with their Yellow and Orange, White to some point and the Flesh, but those are 4 colours out of a whole range that added something new


Not true. Back Templar is excellent as is Skeleton Horde. Some of the reds and blues are also very good, while I have mostly found the purple disappointing.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/04 10:36:32


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Mr.Giggles wrote:

Then GW released a statement saying that anyone who didn't think like them politically wouldn't be missed if they left the hobby. Now I go elsewhere for my models.

Short answer? Make me feel welcome and don't preach at me about your political views or any other non wargaming related views.
.


Except, they are wargaming related, since this is a social hobby and so much is built on the back of 'community'.

"Warhammer is for Everyone. One of the great powers of our hobby is its ability to bring people together in common cause, to build bonds and friendships that cross divides. We believe in and support a community united by shared values of mutual kindness and respect.
Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be.
We will never accept nor condone any form of prejudice, hatred or abuse in our company or in the Warhammer hobby.
We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to.
And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we’re glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed.”

Nothing political about believing in, or promoting 'mutual kindness and respect' or not condoning predjudice, hatred or abuse, especially in a social hobby. This just seems like common courtesy to me, and being a decent person, not politics.


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

Deadnight wrote:
Mr.Giggles wrote:

Then GW released a statement saying that anyone who didn't think like them politically wouldn't be missed if they left the hobby. Now I go elsewhere for my models.

Short answer? Make me feel welcome and don't preach at me about your political views or any other non wargaming related views.
.


Except, they are wargaming related, since this is a social hobby and so much is built on the back of 'community'.

"Warhammer is for Everyone. One of the great powers of our hobby is its ability to bring people together in common cause, to build bonds and friendships that cross divides. We believe in and support a community united by shared values of mutual kindness and respect.
Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be.
We will never accept nor condone any form of prejudice, hatred or abuse in our company or in the Warhammer hobby.
We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray through miniatures, art and storytelling so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to.
And if you feel the same way, wherever and whoever you are, we’re glad you are part of the Warhammer community. If not, you will not be missed.”

Nothing political about believing in, or promoting 'mutual kindness and respect' or not condoning predjudice, hatred or abuse, especially in a social hobby. This just seems like common courtesy to me, and being a decent person, not politics.



Exactly. If that offends somebody's bitter, hateful worldview, then good riddance to them.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

 harlokin wrote:

Not true. Back Templar is excellent as is Skeleton Horde. Some of the reds and blues are also very good, while I have mostly found the purple disappointing.


I have not noticed any difference in the result of Skeleton Horde and Seraphim Sepia, the Contrast and the GW Shade already turns out the same (so even if you ignore the other brands no reason to go with the more expensive Contrast colour here)

I don't use Black very often but prefer the Army Painter one here

the Blues are depending on the tone you want, Contrast offers some different ones to other brands but no real difference in how they work so it ends up with wich colour you need if you don't want to mix it

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 kodos wrote:
 harlokin wrote:

Not true. Back Templar is excellent as is Skeleton Horde. Some of the reds and blues are also very good, while I have mostly found the purple disappointing.


I have not noticed any difference in the result of Skeleton Horde and Seraphim Sepia, the Contrast and the GW Shade already turns out the same (so even if you ignore the other brands no reason to go with the more expensive Contrast colour here)

I don't use Black very often but prefer the Army Painter one here

the Blues are depending on the tone you want, Contrast offers some different ones to other brands but no real difference in how they work so it ends up with wich colour you need if you don't want to mix it


To be fair, I don't think there is a vast difference. Skeleton Horde is a bit more reliable in effect, for me, and has a more yellow tinge.


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

I'll add that I wouldn't want another company to rival GW. GW is a public company with a responsibility to make a profit for their shareholders. Their loyalty is, rightly and ethically, with their shareholders and not with our hobby. That's what you get when a company gets big enough to go corporate like that.

Smaller, private, companies can be loyal to us, the customers and hobby. They are not obliged to use their IP and game to leverage as much profit as they can (the root of why GW treat their games so badly IMO).

You can have Mantic's "your hobby, your way" (for example). Sure, they have to be realistic and consider what is feasible, but they can put the game and hobby before profit to an extent.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 12:58:51


Nightstalkers
Dwarfs  
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

difference would also be that the people from those smaller companies play their own games

no way the CEO of GW played the early version of 9th 40k during the playtesting phase to see how it progressed, or painted his own army

 harlokin wrote:

To be fair, I don't think there is a vast difference. Skeleton Horde is a bit more reliable in effect, for me, and has a more yellow tinge.

yeah, slightly different tone and easier to use if you are a messy painter (GW Shades turn out terrible if you are using too much and are not careful)

but not that brand new technique that was impossible before

it is still just "Wash over White Primer" with some colours being new or improved versions of previous ones
and it is not even the first time for GW, GW Inks that were around 3rd Edi 40k were advertised similar (still missing the good old Chestnut Ink) as were their previous version of the GW Washes

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 kodos wrote:

but not that brand new technique that was impossible before

it is still just "Wash over White Primer" with some colours being new or improved versions of previous ones
and it is not even the first time for GW, GW Inks that were around 3rd Edi 40k were advertised similar (still missing the good old Chestnut Ink) as were their previous version of the GW Washes


Just my experience, but Contrast paints enabled me to paint Kabalites, which I wasn't able to do previously. Traditional edge highlighting on such small models is beyond my fine control, while the high detail/few flat surfaces nature of the sculpts really play to Contrast paint's strengths.

Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

Guy in the Club painted his whole Eldar army with GW Blue Ink over White Primer (kept some parts white for a White/Blue theme) and nothing else in 3rd Edition
was fast and looked impressive

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/04 13:46:25


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gb
[DCM]
Ambitious Archon





Port Carmine

 kodos wrote:
Guy in the Club painted his whole Eldar army with GW Blue Ink over White Primer (kept some parts white for a White/Blue theme) and nothing else in 3rd Edition
was fast and looked impressive


Cool, I haven't seen it, so can't comment.

That said, Contrast (when it works) provides a base colour, highlight, and shade in one coat. Ink does not.

GW could bring out self-painting minis, and some people would still complain that they take too long to dry.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/07 13:50:08


Kabal of the Mon-keigh's Paw
Coven of the Screaming Statues

"Death is only a concern if you're both weak enough to be killed and dumb enough not to arrange your own resurrection." PM713
 
   
Made in ro
Rough Rider with Boomstick





 Grimtuff wrote:
 Arbitrator wrote:

It's arguably why historical wargames don't really have too much overlap with sci-fi/fantasy wargames, because the two audiences can and absolutely do overlap, but at the end of the day you're either into more real-world, grounded rulesets and models or you're not. A Flames of War player probably isn't going to stop playing Flames of War if GW suddenly produce the most balanced, fun, amazing ruleset ever - even though they might also play 40k, they won't drop FoW in the same way a Warmahordes or Infinity player might, but they might drop FoW for another WW2 ruleset.


I agree there. We had this discussion at our FLGS at one point, as to why exactly some of us don't play Bolt Action. Certainly for myself (I'm 36) and a guy in his late 40's we don't play it as it is no longer pretend. For all the atrocities there are in 40k etc., it is still a work of fiction, what Bolt Action represents is not. We had parents or grandparents that really fought what we are "playing" and it leaves a bad taste in your mouth for people of a certain age.

So, no matter how good a ruleset could be; I know for fact there are people that simply won't drift into IRL stuff, but there are others (curiously, many of them serving in the RAF in the case of our FLGS) that will hop between each no problem.

That's an interesting contrast, because the domain of historical wargaming I've known has appeared to be almost exclusively people 30+ with the odd 'youngster' in their late twenties and the average being about 40-50. The more gamey wargames (Bolt Action especially) tends to pull in the younger end, but still what would be considered older compared to something like 40k or AoS where they can range 12 and up.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/10/05 10:23:36


 
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




 kodos wrote:
Guy in the Club painted his whole Eldar army with GW Blue Ink over White Primer (kept some parts white for a White/Blue theme) and nothing else in 3rd Edition
was fast and looked impressive

I've never had results as consistent and decent looking with shades/washes (certainly not with inks, which I've never managed to befriend as a painting tool) as I have with the contrast. Is it absolutely revolutionary? Probably not. Is it a simple and easily available tool for novice or middling painters (or just ones with no patience) that yields quick and decent results? Yes. If you apply a wash even a little too thick, they will leave a nasty white film, esp. the sepia, I'm yet to see that with contrast.
   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






The other strength of GW?

They have all the resources necessary to follow market trends.

And we’ve seen them do this of late with the Specialist Games range (no, not boxed games GW, give them their proper name!).

This is a solid advantage in terms of protecting their market share.

Compare GW’s current breadth of offerings to the offerings of any other company, and their sheer variety simply dwarfs the competition.

From Underworlds to Necromunda to Adeptus Titanicus and everything in between, GW likely has something to tickle your fancy. And I think we can reasonably predict there’s more to come. Certainly I can’t see Battlefleet Gothic remaining a distant memory forever.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




UK

Most of the other firms I've seen try to play the "chase the latest craze" pattern tend to fall apart. Like Spartan Games if you want to run lots of different lines and support them you have to have more than a small team and operation. Otherwise the newest line dominates and the old once popular lines get left behind and lost.

Gamers are a fickle bunch and when they see companies abandoning games they are more apt to walk away. GW has had that with "specialist" games over the years; but they've always kept their 40K and Old World/AoS core going strong.

   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Cronch wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Guy in the Club painted his whole Eldar army with GW Blue Ink over White Primer (kept some parts white for a White/Blue theme) and nothing else in 3rd Edition
was fast and looked impressive

I've never had results as consistent and decent looking with shades/washes (certainly not with inks, which I've never managed to befriend as a painting tool) as I have with the contrast. Is it absolutely revolutionary? Probably not. Is it a simple and easily available tool for novice or middling painters (or just ones with no patience) that yields quick and decent results? Yes. If you apply a wash even a little too thick, they will leave a nasty white film, esp. the sepia, I'm yet to see that with contrast.


What washes leave weird white films? I’ve never seen that happen, and I drown some of my minis in wash.

   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Yeah, that sounds like an issue with the undercoat, rather than the wash - maybe not letting it dry fully before applying the wash?

 
   
Made in us
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Right behind you.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

What washes leave weird white films? I’ve never seen that happen, and I drown some of my minis in wash.

Nuln Oil and Agrax Earthshade, off the top of my head, can sometimes leave white 'tide marks' if diluted with water rather than medium and just slopped on. It's 100% fixable just by applying another light coat.
   
Made in pl
Dakka Veteran




 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Cronch wrote:
 kodos wrote:
Guy in the Club painted his whole Eldar army with GW Blue Ink over White Primer (kept some parts white for a White/Blue theme) and nothing else in 3rd Edition
was fast and looked impressive

I've never had results as consistent and decent looking with shades/washes (certainly not with inks, which I've never managed to befriend as a painting tool) as I have with the contrast. Is it absolutely revolutionary? Probably not. Is it a simple and easily available tool for novice or middling painters (or just ones with no patience) that yields quick and decent results? Yes. If you apply a wash even a little too thick, they will leave a nasty white film, esp. the sepia, I'm yet to see that with contrast.


What washes leave weird white films? I’ve never seen that happen, and I drown some of my minis in wash.

Nuln Oil, Seraphim Sepia, Drakenhof Blue (i think that's the name), which is the only ones I needed to use so I can't say for the others. If you goop too much (especially sepia), it leaves almost grainy white spots once dry. And no, it's not the paint under it not being dry enough. I guess it could be air humidity issue, but again, even if it is, i've never had that problem with contrasts, whereas I had it with GW washes and Vallejo washes (black, blue and sepia/brown respectively)
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

 Overread wrote:
Most of the other firms I've seen try to play the "chase the latest craze" pattern tend to fall apart. Like Spartan Games if you want to run lots of different lines and support them you have to have more than a small team and operation. Otherwise the newest line dominates and the old once popular lines get left behind and lost.

Gamers are a fickle bunch and when they see companies abandoning games they are more apt to walk away. GW has had that with "specialist" games over the years; but they've always kept their 40K and Old World/AoS core going strong.

It's an interesting way the product is structured. GW continuously rolls out products for Warhammer, and if one doesn't appeal, or appeals to a different segment, they have another one in the funnel. I think this generates continual interest, and revenue, and acts as a kind of engine for sustaining the business. It's kind of interesting to see how these products can either go up, selling more stuff to the same fans, or expand, selling the same stuff to new fans. GW's product also appeals to a broader market than gamers, as there is a very robust hobby of people painting miniatures (often GW miniatures) for the fun of it, so they're not relying on the 'keeping up with the joneses/meta-chasing' that they would if it was a more game-y product like X-Wing. They're more than a gaming company or a miniatures company, and so they're not as exposed to the wavering interests of gamers.

   
Made in gb
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






They also have a wider design ethos.

For instance, I have no real appreciation for steampunk. So Warmachine is an easy pass for me, regardless of how I might find it’s rules.

Someone not interested in Star Wars (the weirdo) isn’t going to pick up FFG’s gubbins as a result.

GW? Well, if you’re not into anime stylings, you probs won’t like Tau. But, it’s possible you might find Necrons, Guard etc to your taste.


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Da Head Honcho Boss Grot




New Jersey, State of Perfection

 Overread wrote:
Most of the other firms I've seen try to play the "chase the latest craze" pattern tend to fall apart. Like Spartan Games if you want to run lots of different lines and support them you have to have more than a small team and operation. Otherwise the newest line dominates and the old once popular lines get left behind and lost.

Gamers are a fickle bunch and when they see companies abandoning games they are more apt to walk away. GW has had that with "specialist" games over the years; but they've always kept their 40K and Old World/AoS core going strong.


Im not sure Spartan was ever chasing a trend, I think Spartan was chasing their own interests without regard for their ability to support them. They grew up too fast/bit off more than they could chew. A lot of the games never even really played into any identifiable trend. Their core games were all naval wargames (which I'm pretty sure hasn't been "trendy" since the 1960s or 70s at the latest) their other games were all over the place in terms of subject matter, but in many cases seemed to be vaguely duplicative of one another. And then there was that weird odd scale (40mm?) Dystopian Legions game - sculpts would have sold like hotcakes if they could have been used as 40k guard standins, but they just had to be different.

If anything, I'd say Spartans problem was it cannibalized its own sales. Uncharted Seas suffered because everyone who bought Uncharted Seas stopped buying it to play Firestorm Armada, and then Firestorm Armada suffered because a lot of people jumped ship to Dystopian Wars.

And then there was Halo... they released a naval fleet combat game for an IP that isn't really associated with space battles, and then released a 15mm scale ground combat game for it when it *really* should have been a 28-32mm scale game instead.

This ain't no pansy GW Armor, son - Digital Sculpting Plog, Now with Heavy Weapon Platforms!
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Ma55ter_fett wrote:It reads like the ramblings of a Nigerian lobotomized Shakespeare typed into a cellphone with a very aggressive autocomplete function.
 
   
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Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

There are plenty of space battles in Halo... If you read the books, kinda like with 40k. Then again BFG is also dead.

I guess naval battles aren't popular outside of Star Wars.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Tyran wrote:
There are plenty of space battles in Halo... If you read the books, kinda like with 40k. Then again BFG is also dead.

I guess naval battles aren't popular outside of Star Wars.


Yes, and how many people read the Halo books compared to those that played the game? Halo as an IP is associated with ground combat by everyone what knows anything about it. Spartan grabbing the Halo space battles IP is just the kind of thing that many of these games companies do that holds them back. It was a pretty stupid business decision, exacerbated by the fact they already had a pretty decent space combat game.
   
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Right behind you.

Slipspace wrote:
 Tyran wrote:
There are plenty of space battles in Halo... If you read the books, kinda like with 40k. Then again BFG is also dead.

I guess naval battles aren't popular outside of Star Wars.


Yes, and how many people read the Halo books compared to those that played the game? Halo as an IP is associated with ground combat by everyone what knows anything about it. Spartan grabbing the Halo space battles IP is just the kind of thing that many of these games companies do that holds them back. It was a pretty stupid business decision, exacerbated by the fact they already had a pretty decent space combat game.

I'd assume the books are fairly well read, given that Halo isn't exactly a 'new' franchise. The first novel, "Fall of Reach", even goes heavily into space battles in it.

Heck, the first game even opens on a boarding action. Second game does too.
   
Made in mx
Tunneling Trygon




Mexico

Honestly I would be surprised if 1 in a 100 people that have played the Halo games has read even 1 book.

And the same goes for 40k with all its books, or Star Wars.

In general the EU material is read by a very tiny fraction of the consumers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/10/08 15:52:22


 
   
Made in no
Longtime Dakkanaut






After thinking about it for a bit, i dont think anyone can do it.
GW has become too large and too diversive, and when they eventualy get around to having re-released epic, BFG and old wars, they will be unstoppable.

And it is not just the gameing part, no one can deny that they make very nice looking models regardless of the range in order to appeal to the non-gaming collectors and painters.


For one company to trying to compete in one single category, they would have to make better looking models, better rules set and have as big distribution power, whitout beeing more expensive then GW.

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MN

Now that GW is not afraid to go outside the core two-three games they are essentially making an eco-system where no one ever has to leave GW to get a different gaming experience.

That was why their move away from Specialist Games was so stupid and short sighted in the first place.

Now, they are unstoppable again.

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Longtime Dakkanaut






 Easy E wrote:

That was why their move away from Specialist Games was so stupid and short sighted in the first place.



I feel that was a change that was impossible for them to avoid.
Their goal was to end metal casting, and what, 80% of the entire specialist cataloge was metal?

I think it would have been mutch worse if they finecast the specialist range. It was nessessary to end it to begin from new.

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Austria

GW ended the Specialist Games line because it was a big loss for them

They got the demand wrong outside the UK leading too much boxes that were sitting on shelfs in countries you could not sell anywhere else because of the language

and the core boxes sold were all plastic
but the printed cardboard costs more than the plastic inside and you cannot call them back and sell German Boxes in the UK without re-doing the most expensive part (also a reason why GW stopped doing dedicated boxes and uses now one for all countries and does not translate SG rules any more)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
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United States

"What would it take for another table top game company to rival GW"

If the new company provided the same or higher value for roughly the same number of customers GW has.

That could take decades to achieve since most of the value GW provides is their vast IP, lore, history, etc, within their model line and other avenues which use their IP.

Ayn Rand "We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality" 
   
 
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