Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Eldarsif wrote:
40k suffers from a problem that it is basically 30k at this point. GW wants to make 40k the next 30k and we will all reap the benefits/loss depending on what we play. The future is very much marine and if you are not interested in a 30k match then 40k will most likely not be your game.

GW has spent, through its ancillaries, a lot of time and money in creating the Space Marine mythos and it reflects very much in the game now. No other faction has such a wide range of lore and fluff to sell itself and that will always be why Xenos factions will be the NPCs in this game. GW most likely realizes this problem but because they like money they will not move away from this path. However, you do see them trying to diversify in AoS and the lore and books reflect a much more richer universe with different factions. There is even more intrigue and darker stories being told in AoS now than I get from 40k due to the heroification of Marines as of late.

Which is why - and I have said this before - AoS is a much healthier game than 40k at the moment, warts and all.

You're not separating marketing from actual production. Stormcast are very much the face of AoS. They also got a ton of releases early that people complained about, because they were a gimped army. Now that period is past and GW is free to explore other armies. And while GW has many more "Stormcast" avenues to pull from they'll be forced to do large releases for other armies.

Most armies have had no small number of releases. If I were a betting man I would say AM will be a big splash this year.

 Daedalus81 wrote:


If that's the yardstick then no one really needs any models. As much as people don't agree Primaris are a separate army that FB were allowed to join into. They're the primary driver of the narrative and the most recognizable face for the hobby. Do you think a Hive Tyrant would draw in more people? It makes nothing but sense for GW to renew the scale of the armies and do so with Marines at the fore.

Well, we can treat them separately, okay. Why do we need Primaris as a separate army then? The driver of the narrative is putting the cart before the horse, they drive the narrative because they're new Space Marines. They're the recognizable face because they're new Space Marines. And yeah, if GW put their minds to it and came up with good fluff to back it, there totally could have been some massive narrative between the Ubermind (some gestalt representation of the Hive) and those stoic defenders of humanity, the firstborn space marines. This is all just circular logic to justify Primaris and the obsession from GW with giving them new stuff.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Slipspace wrote:


What do SM need? They already have by far the largest range of models of any GW army. I'd argue SM don't need any new models for the duration of 9th edition. The fact GW comes up with a whole host of new models for the new Codex doesn't mean SM needed them but apparently it's enough to make people think they did. Would we really have been complaining if GW hadn't decided that SM needed Heavy Intercessors as a whole new Troops choice? Or a Techmarine-crewed turret? Or yet another Captain variant?

If the needs of the army are your yardstick I don't think you've got a leg to stand on when it comes to SM.

If that's the yardstick then no one really needs any models. As much as people don't agree Primaris are a separate army that FB were allowed to join into. They're the primary driver of the narrative and the most recognizable face for the hobby. Do you think a Hive Tyrant would draw in more people? It makes nothing but sense for GW to renew the scale of the armies and do so with Marines at the fore.

Seeing as "At the fore" is not surrounded by 24 quotation marks here, I'm going to assume that either you're willfully lying or are naive enough to actually think GW is planning some kind of 'roll out' of the increased scale to all factions.

Despite recent releases like Necrons being completely identical in size to their previous incarnations.

This is why I'm having a hard time taking your ever-increasing levels of head in the sand apologia seriously. You're really now presenting Primaris as "step one" in some kind of game wide roll out of scale increase, and not the product of a marketing committee meeting where they tried to figure out how to shift their whale consumer bracket from a collection hobby to a FOMO-driven planned obsolescence model while taking the opportunity to consolidate their main IP's brand image to be more legally defensible?

 Daedalus81 wrote:


You're not separating marketing from actual production. Stormcast are very much the face of AoS. They also got a ton of releases early that people complained about, because they were a gimped army. Now that period is past and GW is free to explore other armies. And while GW has many more "Stormcast" avenues to pull from they'll be forced to do large releases for other armies.

Most armies have had no small number of releases. If I were a betting man I would say AM will be a big splash this year.

Come on, there's no comparing SM to SCE. The SCE push was 100% artificial, that was GW propping that whole initiative up. I'm not a huge SM fan but I will at least acknowledge that their popularity is mostly organic (though still probably overly driven by GW's marketing practices) and they have decidedly "caught on".

And I don't really get the second point; seems like GW does some large-ish release for non-Space Marines once or twice a year. There are a lot of armies to get through if you're only doing something substantial once a year like that.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
My apologies - you are "technically correct, the best kind of correct" *adjusts pocket protector, pushes up thick poindexter glasses* You get 100 dakkabux redeemable at any BCB Franchise Location.

TECHNICALLY we have gotten since the launch of 9th merely ONE marine codex, three marine codex SUPPLEMENTS that are unlike codexes because...well they take up a book release slot...and they've got just as many datasheets in them as many of the other full codexes....more rules, usually....just as much lore...just as many plastic kits supported that are unique to them...but they have the word SUPPLEMENT after the word CODEX so you are right.

...Burn the internet to the fething ground please god.

Says the man who used the term 'avalanche of space marine garbage' in a thread where a new player asked about the current state of 40k. You're surely unbiased and in no way contribute to the problems you see within this community... Give your head a shake.

The avalanche of loyalist marine garbage is by very far the biggest downside in the state of the game currently. I'm obviously biased, every person is biased, but if you gave any other faction the same amount of exclusive attention marines have gotten since the start of 8th I'd start seeing their releases as an avalanche of garbage as well.

The release schedule is an aspect of peoples' enjoyment of the game just as much as the rules state is, and right now AOS is skipping through a glorious golden age of a million visually incredible new armies while 40k continues to slog through a hideously long drawn out rehash of the entire gigantic marine range while also bending over backwards to try and keep the firstborn range relevant and everyone's special snowflake units as well.

Actually the_scotsman I think technically you will find that Canadian 5th is the only unbiased person on the internet.

I hope they don't upscale all the minis! That would be awful.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Spoiler:

Darsath wrote:
I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?

No, I don't think I can agree to that. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have a legal space marine army if that was the case. But you tell me:

[spoiler]

I know it wouldn't be able to play 2000pt games without post-7th edition models.

I really like Primaris space marines. They took my interest from zero with loyalist space marines to that collection in the spoiler above and beyond. I don't even think an enbiggening of the Firstborn sculpts to 'true scale' would have me bother. Primaris are the part I like about those models. You may believe that Primaris are superfluous and a waste of GW resources that could have been used to better promote other factions. I am not likely to change your mind. However, just for a moment, consider that maybe it could be possible part of the reason GW kicked their release schedule into overdrive is in part due in part to the success of Primaris space marines. They are obviously popular enough that GW keeps cranking them out at a break-neck speed to the point that even me as a fan of them has to wonder maybe they have over saturated their inventory with them. [/spoiler]Maybe some other faction refresh coulda, woulda, shoulda done the same thing. That's always going to be an unknown.

I can agree to the idea that maybe GW could spread the wealth a little more toward older factions that have languished instead of creating the next big thing. Be it a new faction, a new tent-pole game, a bunch re-freshed and new specialist games, and yes, even a radical addition more akin to a new faction than a refresh of the company's most popular model line. I don't think anyone can here can say with certainty that Primaris releases are actively blocking other faction releases. At best, they are maybe slowing some progress due to the GW having the idea that a customer will buy both new Intercessors and new Eldar Guardians, just not in the same fiscal quarter.

I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.

I can appreciate this position. Exalted.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
there totally could have been some massive narrative between the Ubermind (some gestalt representation of the Hive) and those stoic defenders of humanity, the firstborn space marines. This is all just circular logic to justify Primaris and the obsession from GW with giving them new stuff.

This is not a marketing strategy. When someone comes in, because they see Primaris and...oh...no tanks? I have to use these older ones? That stinks.

People don't generally identify with an ork or a demon or a lovecraftian alien. A marine creates broad appeal and then people find their niche.

I don't identify with Marines at all, if anything it's Imperial Guard. Marines are really weird. In an interesting way, I think they are cool, but they are not easy to identify with.

All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

the_scotsman wrote:

Seeing as "At the fore" is not surrounded by 24 quotation marks here, I'm going to assume that either you're willfully lying or are naive enough to actually think GW is planning some kind of 'roll out' of the increased scale to all factions.

Despite recent releases like Necrons being completely identical in size to their previous incarnations.

This is why I'm having a hard time taking your ever-increasing levels of head in the sand apologia seriously. You're really now presenting Primaris as "step one" in some kind of game wide roll out of scale increase, and not the product of a marketing committee meeting where they tried to figure out how to shift their whale consumer bracket from a collection hobby to a FOMO-driven planned obsolescence model while taking the opportunity to consolidate their main IP's brand image to be more legally defensible?

I think you're putting more to my words than there are. They're taking the opportunity to level set the scale where appropriate - not that they will be doing it to everything. CSM, DG and TS got bigger. The renegades from BSF are scaled differently than IS. Marines were - I guess this is opinion - in need of the scale redo. They could have just made them replacement style like CSM, but they they'd miss the opportunity to drive the narrative ( something that also doesn't sit well with some people ).

 Xenomancers wrote:
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

Thank you for carrying that weight on your shoulders, the burden must be enormous. If only your efforts were appreciated by the masses that despise you. You truly are the hero the fandom needs, but not the one it deserves.

 Xenomancers wrote:
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?

 Da Boss wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

Thank you for carrying that weight on your shoulders, the burden must be enormous. If only your efforts were appreciated by the masses that despise you. You truly are the hero the fandom needs, but not the one it deserves.

The weight of the world is on my shoulders.

The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.

You know, as someone who plays Daemons, I have more support for my faction in 30k than in 40k (and rules that match the lore better to boot).

Sometimes I wish FW would release a xenos sourcebook for 30k just to see what happens.

 Da Boss wrote:
Actually the_scotsman I think technically you will find that Canadian 5th is the only unbiased person on the internet.

I hope they don't upscale all the minis! That would be awful.

I walk down the street and good people - big people - they come up to me and they're crying, and they're saying I'm unbiased. Like nobody's ever seen, they say nobody has less bias than me, it's amazing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
You know, as someone who plays Daemons, I have more support for my faction in 30k than in 40k (and rules that match the lore better to boot).

Sometimes I wish FW would release a xenos sourcebook for 30k just to see what happens.

And in AOS. hoo doggy are my tzeentch daemons incredibly fun in AOS.

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
All you need to prove the anti marine bias form - is to look at the tactics section.

Space marines by far the most popular faction in the game by at least a factor of 2. have 13 pages of 9th eddition codex discussion.

Necrons by comparison are not popular and have 33. Nearly 3x as much discussion.

Eldar 9th ed are at like 55 pages.

Marine players have literally left this forum because of it I am sure.

Maybe it is just the case that no one likes marines but marine players. I just question why these people keep playing...I guess because the game has literally been a marine turkey shoot until Gman came along. Now its getting rough though cause marines have teeth...

LOL no telling. Id just suggest not biting the hand the feeds you - without marines this game would be dead.

Couldn't it be that marines are so easy to play and overpowered that a thread in which players discuss about tactics is actually pointless?

That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.

Also possible - just a theory.

 Xenomancers wrote:


That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.

Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.

It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
The marine book is mostly a known quantity. I'd bet if you went back far enough you'd see lengthy marine discussions. Necrons have a lot of changes to digest.

It's also a more "fiddly" book than I think a lot of people realize. The marine book really is pretty straight forward, but the Necron book, generally speaking, has a higher skill floor, with more to consider and, quite frankly, a lot of trap options. I think it will be a while before we really see it's absolute power level (covid and other codex releases not withstanding of course).

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.

Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.

It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.

people that are willing to engage in tactica for their armies already represent a very small minority of the playerbase. basing the popularity of a faction on the size of its tactica is pretty daft.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:


That is possible except...they also have more options than all other armies and can be played in many different ways so...It's impossible that marines players just don't find their way here. I think it's clear there aren't a lot of marine players on this fourm. I'm convinced the reason for that is anti marine bias.

Pretty much everyone has a marine army, including dakka posters.

It's clear there are marines players who aren't interested in discussing about tactics. I for example never look at the SW tactics thread as I feel like I don't need it and there's nothing interesting to discuss there, while I'm very active on the Orks thread. I also follow tactics threads about my former armies, Drukhari and Adepta Sororitas.

people that are willing to engage in tactica for their armies already represent a very small minority of the playerbase. basing the popularity of a faction on the size of its tactica is pretty daft.

But false analogy proves marines arn't the poular and suppor the view the marine players have been victimised so badly they left Dakka.

Its spin doctoring 101 never let facts get in the way of a good spin opportunity.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

Darsath wrote:
I think we can all agree that Space Marines didn't need any new models from the end of 7th edition. Yes?

No, I don't think I can agree to that. I am pretty sure I wouldn't have a legal space marine army if that was the case. But you tell me:

Spoiler:

I know it wouldn't be able to play 2000pt games without post-7th edition models.

I really like Primaris space marines. They took my interest from zero with loyalist space marines to that collection in the spoiler above and beyond. I don't even think an enbiggening of the Firstborn sculpts to 'true scale' would have me bother. Primaris are the part I like about those models. You may believe that Primaris are superfluous and a waste of GW resources that could have been used to better promote other factions. I am not likely to change your mind. However, just for a moment, consider that maybe it could be possible part of the reason GW kicked their release schedule into overdrive is in part due in part to the success of Primaris space marines. They are obviously popular enough that GW keeps cranking them out at a break-neck speed to the point that even me as a fan of them has to wonder maybe they have over saturated their inventory with them. Maybe some other faction refresh coulda, woulda, shoulda done the same thing. That's always going to be an unknown.

I can agree to the idea that maybe GW could spread the wealth a little more toward older factions that have languished instead of creating the next big thing. Be it a new faction, a new tent-pole game, a bunch re-freshed and new specialist games, and yes, even a radical addition more akin to a new faction than a refresh of the company's most popular model line. I don't think anyone can here can say with certainty that Primaris releases are actively blocking other faction releases. At best, they are maybe slowing some progress due to the GW having the idea that a customer will buy both new Intercessors and new Eldar Guardians, just not in the same fiscal quarter.

I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.

Primaris are particularly unique in that they come with the threat that they are replacing a current faction.

I could live with Primaris a lot easier if I knew they weren't intended as a replacement to the army I already have and love. Unfortunately, it's easy to interpret their existence as being intended to replace the former SM line. Furthermore, it appears that the lore is suggesting the same.

So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

So I normally stay off of these types of posts, but I have free time so let's give it a go.

For context, CSM Night Lords are by far my main army (and army I've been building and collecting since CSM 3.5), with Chaos Knights and mixed daemons after that. Also, I actually really like the sculpts of a lot of the Primaris space marines, things like Bladeguard Vets and Bike Chappy are quite well done.

However, try and look at the current situation from a CSM standpoint. Whereas Space Marines have gained a lot of new units, we have lost quite a bit of ours. My Doomrider model that I converted into a Bike Lord. Gone. But see that badass Chaplain on bike with amazing rules and great combat profile. Same thing with my converted Skullcrusher of Khorne. Gone. On top of that, things like our Warp Talons and Mutilators, which have been borderline garbage since there release at the start of 6th edition, are mere shadows compared to the loyalist counterparts like BladeGuard (a brand new kit) and Sanguinary Guard. Heck, look at the Redemptor Dreadnought, for almost the same amount of points as a Forgefiend or a Maulerfiend, it shots and fights almost better than both of them combined.

But ok, what about rules. Well lets see, I get -1 to leadership. Within 6in. To a max of -3. Yay? As opposed to, Combat Doctrines, generally two really good chapter abilities, and sometimes absurdly powerful Super Doctrines. Not only that, but when something does get improved, like Hateful Assault or Astartes Chainswords, its only because because they decided Space Marines need a buff, and we get thrown some scraps as an afterthought. Example, did you know a 285 point Land Raider gets removed from play if we put a combi-plasma gun on it and it rolls a one. Yep.

And the above problems, are really nothing new. It was like this a majority of 8th edition, 9th's mission structure and subsequent releases have only exacerbated the problems. And yes, I know we will get a new codex this year. And yes, I know that even in a Community article they even specifically called out how bad the Night Lords trait is. But do I think we will get more that maybe 1-2 new models, much less get back all the ones we've lost recently. No.

But sure, convince me that my dislike of Space Marines is solely because they are popular. At the very least I'm glad they FAQ'ed us to be two wounds until our codex does arrive. Oh, Right

 Vanican wrote:
So I normally stay off of these types of posts, but I have free time so let's give it a go.

For context, CSM Night Lords are by far my main army, with Chaos Knights and mixed daemons after that. Also, I actually really like the sculpts of a lot of the Primaris space marines, things like Bladeguard Vets and Bike Chappy are quite well done.

However, try and look at the current situation from a CSM standpoint. Whereas Space Marines have gained a lot of new units, we have lost quite a bit of ours. My Doomrider model that I converted into a Bike Lord. Gone. But see that badass Chaplain on bike with amazing rules and great combat profile. Same thing with my converted Skullcrusher of Khorne. Gone. On top of that, things like our Warp Talons and Mutilators, which have been borderline garbage since there release at the start of 6th edition, are mere shadows compared to the loyalist counterparts like BladeGuard (a brand new kit) and Sanguinary Guard. Heck, look at the Redemptor Dreadnought, for almost the same amount of points as a Forgefiend or a Maulerfiend, it shots and fights almost better than both of the combined.

But ok, what about rules. Well lets see, I get -1 to leadership. Within 6in. To a max of -3. Yay? As opposed to, Combat Doctrines, generally two really good chapter abilities, and sometimes absurdly powerful Super Doctrines. Not only that, but when something does get improved, like Hateful Assault or Astartes Chainswords, its only because because they decided Space Marines need a buff, and we get thrown some scraps as an afterthought. Example, did you know a 285 point Land Raider gets removed from play if we but a plasma gun on it and it rolls a one. Yep.

And the above problems, are really nothing new. It was like this a majority of 8th edition, 9th's mission structure and subsequent releases have only exacerbated the problems. And yes, I know we will get a new codex this year. And yes, I know that even in a Community article they even specifically called out how bad the Night Lords trait is. But do I think we will get more that maybe 1-2 new models, much less get back all the ones we've lost recently. No.

But sure, convince me that my dislike of Space Marines is solely because they are popular. At the very least I'm glad they FAQ'ed us to be two wounds until our codex does arrive. Oh, Right

According to Xenomancer, you just need to understand that loyalist Astartes are the cash cow, and not criticize the situation, because that's biting the hand that feeds.

I don't think you can separate Marine's popularity from the fact they have been in every starter set going back to at least 1993.

I do think GW supports this in the fluff far more than they did with Stormcast (I mean...) but it also helps that GW have had to release so many new armies in AoS to stand as competition.

I mean the big Necron Wave is great. But when it is all finally out you know Necrons won't be getting much this side of 2030.

 Insectum7 wrote:
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.

All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.

That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
So like Primaris all you want, but realize that they may be writing out MY faction for them.

I don't like the idea of Primaris being the only loyalist space marines. I want Firstborn to be around for a good long while (read: never go away) despite the datasheet bloat having both create. At my most selfish, Firstborn provide me with alternate CSM rules should I want them as my CSM army leans away from the Chaos exclusive stuff and toward the more loyalist marine-like stuff. I kinda like having that fallback if the C:CSM ever becomes garbage, or the rules ends up all FUBARed like it is now all over the place since I didn't bother with the revised codex in 8th.

All I can say is that there isn't any indication that Firstborn are being sunsetted 9th edition yet. That should give them at least another 3 years. But I can't say there isn't a Sword of over them. I don't like it any more than you do.

That's also not going to stop me liking Primaris marines either.

I DO like that sword over them and it can't drop soon enough.

Look, this isn't about what any individual likes. In game design some times you spend a lot of time and effort on this really neat element of the game. This really cool mechanic or unit or army that does this thing that you just really love. It has a special place in your heart. And then you look at what impact it has on the game as a whole and you realize... it's a problem. It doesn't make the game better even though you love it on it's own. Worse it drags things down. It layers on consequence after consequence and no mater how you spin the puzzle piece it just doesn't really fit. So you kill your darling for the sake of the project. It happens in movies too. This scene is great but... it's dragging down the movie as a whole. So it goes into the dvd extras and the cutting room floor.

Old marines are that. They are bloated all on their own before primaris ever show up. Their wargear is extensive to an extreme. their units step on each others toes. Do you want jump pack marines or BETTER jump pack marines!? Primaris are the clean slate SM need to get back on track. To fit into the rest of the puzzle. And the longer oldmarines are around the more their design influences the design of the primaris. By influence I mean corrupts it. Primaris should be standing on their own so they can be designed and built to be an army on their own because they ARE an army on their own. And first born just don't fit anymore as a design element. And they definitely don't fit any more now that they are sharing all this space with Primaris. It's time to kill your darling.

@Lance845

I can understand that stance too. There is a loyalist space marine datasheet bloat issue that is probably going to have to be resolved eventually. The known Primaris units are extremely unlikely to be the last. Which with each new unit pushing at the seams of the Codex: Space Marines further to the breaking point.

Again, I can say is I don't appreciate someone saying that one of my armies shouldn't exist any more than I think they would like it if they were told the same.

I don't want to see Firstborn marine players have their armies put into Legends, have to find workarounds like using Primaris datasheets, using Codex: Chaos Space Marines or something else. Any more than I want to hear the same old argument to why Primaris space marines are the worst thing to happen to 40k.

Chances are something is going to have to give. That's probably at least three years away. I hope for more, but I can see why someone would hope for less. As someone that has an almost exclusively Primaris army, I think Primaris do stand on their own now. I don't really mind the ways they have been squeezed in the rules nooks and crannies to do the same thing as Firstborn but also not. It really is a nice element, for me, that separates my Primaris army from my Chaos Space Marine army, and it makes Primaris very slightly less than brain-dead easy to play. I also recognize that I am a casual player not particularly concerned with balance so long as the game works in that nebulous area where a group of players don't push too hard on optimization. That of which probably allows for the issue to remain longer than someone more concerned about rules parity. Which Dakka is far more geared toward on average.

I don't think there is any good answers to these issues.

I'm hoping for some great reckoning in the lore. Like a Primarch returning and calling Roboute and Cawl out for their nonsense.

The Firstborn range is too extensive and recent to just drop/Legend. Write them into their own faction. Modern GW has had some pretty funny meta humour of late (Gotrek returning to AoS with the outlook of an embittered WHFB player)

Split them off and have whichever Primarch you choose be the old Astartes grognard in universe.