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Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Apple fox wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey


"Mighty Whitey" isn't racist ? lol OK


It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.


except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.

First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.

And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.


I think that trope linked is specifically about that.

It’s also a case of Tone within the setting coming at odds to the tone outside.
Within the setting it makes sense, and even can push the ideas of what the primarchs are.
Outside looking in, and this is where GW is probably focused on in modernisation, that it’s a tired story trope that a lot of people have seen before.
And with other culture issues, It doesn’t really hold anything unique or interesting on its own. Considering it’s a visual medium, models first, art and then the written books coming at the end. It is of concern to GW when so much of it was written first in a time where a lot of people show little concern to the issues it may present.
It may have even better to try and tackle it head on in the setting to make people know that GW is trying to do it right and well.


I love how art is supposed to be subjective, but you're following a guidebook on tropes which is politically bent and tells you how to think and feel about fiction under its own lens

Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Karol wrote:
Iracundus 799882 11182609 wrote:

That's just plain incorrect and wrong. There are plenty of shadow wars that happen within a single organization. We have plenty of historical dynastic intrigues, all happening within the same government. In more modern times there are still such conflicts within authoritarian parties such as for example within the Chinese Communist Party or within North Korea. The public only sees the final effects when all the pieces fall into place and one side finally loses, when major members of the losing side or clique are taken to trial and then executed, placed under house arrest, or have to flee to exile. All the while they present a seemingly united polite front for outside observers, because it would not look good for the organization to be seen at war with itself.

A dynasty is not an organisation. And even in case of those the end result of everyone conflict in those is a purge. The last kim dies, his son takes over, one of the first thing he does is order the execution of his uncle and imprisoment of his aunt. Communists parties are well known for their purges, and there was nothing shadow or hidden about it. In my own country we had one in 1949, then another one in 1956, then another one in 1968, then another one in 1971, then we actually did have a covert operation made by the military to place agents in Wien'a and secure private companies after communism fall. But all of that shadown stuff culminated in war state being declared in 1981. And we had it easy comparing to other places in the soviet block. All shadow wars in places like Hungary, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia would always end in either local purges or soviet or soviet block intervention.


Karol there are lots of shadow wars inside orginizations. just because they don't ALWAYS happen doesn't mean they don't happen.


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey


"Mighty Whitey" isn't racist ? lol OK


It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.


except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.

First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.

And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.


And all those supermen just happen to have Caucasian/European facial features. Sorry not buying that. As unconvincing as the person that claims "I'm not racist. It's just a coincidence I happen to only hire white Europeans all the time." At the very least it shows unconscious bias even if not active conscious racism.

Seriously this is warped. People arguing that portraying an Asian for Space Mongols is racist and instead have to go for showing a white Caucasian featured person as stand-in for Space Temujin. This is really the epitome of whitewashing logic right there: "Caucasians can be in other cultures' stories and tales in lead character roles but the opposite isn't allowed." I can already imagine what the reaction would be if say Guilliman hypothetically were shown as African or Asian in appearance.

This is arguing up is down, left is right. Go look at pale skinned Mongolians (go ahead and google for some, they are there) and they are still clearly Asian/Eurasian in facial features no matter the paleness of their skin. By "white" I am not referring to skin color as that FW sketch is also just in black and white. The facial features of that FW sketch are anything but Central Asian. Go look at Central Asian faces. Not all look classic East Asian. Some clearly incorporate other elements but they are still noticeably distinct from the kind of face seen in that FW sketch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Iracundus 799882 11182609 wrote:

That's just plain incorrect and wrong. There are plenty of shadow wars that happen within a single organization. We have plenty of historical dynastic intrigues, all happening within the same government. In more modern times there are still such conflicts within authoritarian parties such as for example within the Chinese Communist Party or within North Korea. The public only sees the final effects when all the pieces fall into place and one side finally loses, when major members of the losing side or clique are taken to trial and then executed, placed under house arrest, or have to flee to exile. All the while they present a seemingly united polite front for outside observers, because it would not look good for the organization to be seen at war with itself.


A dynasty is not an organisation. And even in case of those the end result of everyone conflict in those is a purge. The last kim dies, his son takes over, one of the first thing he does is order the execution of his uncle and imprisoment of his aunt. Communists parties are well known for their purges, and there was nothing shadow or hidden about it. In my own country we had one in 1949, then another one in 1956, then another one in 1968, then another one in 1971, then we actually did have a covert operation made by the military to place agents in Wien'a and secure private companies after communism fall. But all of that shadown stuff culminated in war state being declared in 1981. And we had it easy comparing to other places in the soviet block. All shadow wars in places like Hungary, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia would always end in either local purges or soviet or soviet block intervention.


Again so wrong. Clearly you know very little about dynasties, especially Imperial Chinese dynasties, where the Imperial family often also occupied part of the civil service structure. Intrigues could and did involve cliques of civil service officials and bureaucratic organs of government. Purges were only the final end result. When such conflicts and wars are ongoing with outcome undecided, the major players haven't yet been purged. Only losers get purged. The purge is the outcome after the war is over.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 10:09:43


 
   
Made in au
Regular Dakkanaut




Tallarook, Victoria, Australia

Iracundus wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
 GoldenHorde wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
When you take one of the defining tales of a cultural group, one of their greatest figures, essentially do a retell or expy of them and then whitewash their leader, sorry but that is racist. https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MightyWhitey


"Mighty Whitey" isn't racist ? lol OK


It is not. Calling out the racist trope of the white savior saving the natives or being better than the natives at their own culture is not racist.


except that the Khan's skin colour is beside the point.

First of all, ALL of the Primarchs are "Strangers from outside who are better then the natives are at their own culture" every single fuckine one of them.

And they're not better because they're white. Skin colour is completely irrelevant here, and everyone knows it. they're better because they're geneticly engineered supermen.


And all those supermen just happen to have Caucasian/European facial features. Sorry not buying that. As unconvincing as the person that claims "I'm not racist. It's just a coincidence I happen to only hire white Europeans all the time."

Seriously this is warped. People arguing that portraying an Asian for Space Mongols is racist and instead have to go for showing a white Caucasian featured person as stand-in for Space Temujin. This is really the epitome of whitewashing logic right there: "Caucasians can be in other cultures' stories and tales in lead character roles but the opposite isn't allowed." I can already imagine what the reaction would be if say Guilliman hypothetically were shown as African or Asian in appearance.

This is arguing up is down, left is right. Go look at pale skinned Mongolians (go ahead and google for some, they are there) and they are still clearly Asian/Eurasian in facial features no matter the paleness of their skin. By "white" I am not referring to skin color as that FW sketch is also just in black and white. The facial features of that FW sketch are anything but Central Asian. Go look at Central Asian faces. Not all look classic East Asian. Some clearly incorporate other elements but they are still noticeably distinct from the kind of face seen in that FW sketch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Karol wrote:
Iracundus 799882 11182609 wrote:

That's just plain incorrect and wrong. There are plenty of shadow wars that happen within a single organization. We have plenty of historical dynastic intrigues, all happening within the same government. In more modern times there are still such conflicts within authoritarian parties such as for example within the Chinese Communist Party or within North Korea. The public only sees the final effects when all the pieces fall into place and one side finally loses, when major members of the losing side or clique are taken to trial and then executed, placed under house arrest, or have to flee to exile. All the while they present a seemingly united polite front for outside observers, because it would not look good for the organization to be seen at war with itself.


A dynasty is not an organisation. And even in case of those the end result of everyone conflict in those is a purge. The last kim dies, his son takes over, one of the first thing he does is order the execution of his uncle and imprisoment of his aunt. Communists parties are well known for their purges, and there was nothing shadow or hidden about it. In my own country we had one in 1949, then another one in 1956, then another one in 1968, then another one in 1971, then we actually did have a covert operation made by the military to place agents in Wien'a and secure private companies after communism fall. But all of that shadown stuff culminated in war state being declared in 1981. And we had it easy comparing to other places in the soviet block. All shadow wars in places like Hungary, Jugoslavia, Czechoslovakia would always end in either local purges or soviet or soviet block intervention.


Again so wrong. Clearly you know very little about dynasties, especially Imperial Chinese dynasties, where the Imperial family often also occupied part of the civil service structure. Intrigues could and did involve cliques of civil service officials and bureaucratic organs of government. Purges as only the final end result. When such conflicts and wars are ongoing, the major players haven't yet been purged.


Jaghatai has rounded facial features in the art. on the novel he looks Turkic. You're just making stuff up

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 10:09:30


Living in a world of make believe
I can hide behind what's real 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Oh perhaps. Rogue Trader and 2nd edition were more akin to RPGs, weren't they? I started in the tail end of 3rd edition and SI army leaders were not a thing in my area. I do vaguely recall seeing some custom army fluff though. I do certainly remember seeing conversions, but I don't think they had much to do with their owner's inner nature.

It might have just been the fact my group ran a lot of narrative campaigns and people were encouraged to make up characters. TBH I always saw the leader of an army as my avatar of Warhammer. They might not have had my name but they all had my poor grasp of strategy and love for hitting things with big sticks.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

TBH I've never seen someone make a self-insert character for 40k.

I'm mildly surprised how we managed to get from "how grimdark should 40k be" to "white scars are racist". What a time to be alive.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 10:21:19


 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




When a self build character is better then a special one, why would anyone not build him or her, and vice versa.

I don't think many people run GK GMs when Voldus and Draigo exist, at the point costs level they have right now or had in the past.

On the other hand taking a special character chaplain, instead of a regular or primaris one mounted on a bike or armed with a jet pack seems foolish. Unless he has a pack or bike option too.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I have to say that Jagathai Sketch from FW is pretty bad. But most sketches of those line are extremely... not how those characters should look.

They are more like someone took famous people pictures and drawn over them. But other official art of Jagathai I have seen, he looks much more asian.

At least modern art of Horus puts him in more of a iranian looking guy than the Lex Luthor of old:

Spoiler:


What is sad, is that back in Dawn of War 2, when we had the first representation of an official black marine in the Blood Ravens Librarian character, most people tought it was something cool. But then a year ago when that Ultramarines novel cover was revealed with an black ultramarine, many people complained about pandering, or how that was impossible. At least for me that shows clearly that most of the online "noise" about Warhammer is from people that doesnt even engage in the hobby in a big way, and more from "fans" of the "fluff" where their "fluff" comes from Text to Speech Device and 1d4chan and the memes.

And , in the present tangent, anybody that says that GW did a good job of having good female representation in their universes (Or heck, female models that didnt looked like crap) until... 4-5 years ago, is deluding themselves. But is clear that GW has changed that trend in a stellar way, so why bother talking more about it? GW is doing more, kickass, badass female characters and miniatures, and still they are producing a horde of he-man proportionated male models so the fears of many people didn't come to pass. Win-win for everyone here.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 10:30:14


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
I have to say that Jagathai Sketch from FW is pretty bad. But most sketches of those line are extremely... not how those characters should look.

They are more like someone took famous people pictures and drawn over them. But other official art of Jagathai I have seen, he looks much more asian.

At least modern art of Horus puts him in more of a iranian looking guy than the Lex Luthor of old:


How do you see that as more Iranian looking? I am genuinely curious as to me he still looks like big bald guy. Maybe not as thin in the face as a Lex Luthor but I am not seeing the Iranian bit.


What is sad, is that back in Dawn of War 2, when we had the first representation of an official black marine in the Blood Ravens Librarian character, most people tought it was something cool. But then a year ago when that Ultramarines novel cover was revealed with an black ultramarine, many people complained about pandering, or how that was impossible. At least for me that shows clearly that most of the online "noise" about Warhammer is from people that doesnt even engage in the hobby in a big way, and more from "fans" of the "fluff" where their "fluff" comes from Text to Speech Device and 1d4chan and the memes.


Do you mean the cover of the Avenging Son? Much earlier in this thread I made a post mentioning it and other more recent novel covers, as a possible example of tokenism. While certainly better than having no diversity whatsoever, it seems almost like a quota system for cover art of 1 (and only 1) woman major character, 1 (and only 1) non-white non-Caucasian major character, with Rites of Passage seemingly combining both into a dark skinned female major character. However, despite a description of their appearance or their gender and I think Rites mentioned one was either gay or trans, these details had no relevance to the plot and were not mentioned again. They were throwaway mentions. If those parts were cut out, the story would not change at all. From a writing point of view, if the author is making a point of mentioning these details, they should do something with them.
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I mean, I disagree with that. The notion that the colour of a skin of a character must be made relevant runs contrary to what I believe is normalization. I prefer the "This is a character with all the depth of a character that just happens to be X" specially in a context were his skin or gender or whatever has no relevance.

If we are writting a story about a black character in 1950's america yeah, of course it should be relevant but in 40k?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 10:56:11


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
I mean, I disagree with that. The notion that the colour of a skin of a character must be made relevant runs contrary to what I believe is normalization. I prefer the "This is a character with all the depth of a character that just happens to be X" specially in a context were his skin or gender or whatever has no relevance.

If we are writting a story about a black character in 1950's america yeah, of course it should be relevant but in 40k?


It's more the principle of not having extraneous detail or things unless it serves a purpose of some form to the story or narrative, especially if the author is making a special point of drawing the reader's attention to it. It's the Chekhov's gun principle:

"Chekhov’s gun is a dramatic principle that suggests that details within a story or play will contribute to the overall narrative. This encourages writers to not make false promises in their narrative by including extemporaneous details that will not ultimately pay off by the last act, chapter, or conclusion."

The GW authors made a special point of devoting text to describing the character's skin color, their facial features, or their sexuality. Ok, then they just leave it to dangle. Does it really help flesh out the character? Only at a superficial level such as that SM character has dark skin (despite coming from a hive city! That was one question I would have liked at least mentioned or addressed, given that 40K is so far in the future that whole populations have mutated from baseline human norm to be Ogryns or Halflings. I see most hive city dwellers as the pasty or translucent unnatural white of Delaques, like the phenomena seen in cave fish). These details are never elaborated upon to further expand understanding of the character and never come back to be of relevance to the main plot.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:20:22


 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

I don't think thats applicable to just physical characteristics of a character. And specially because Chekhov's gun principle is not a narrative law.

You can point out a character lacks and eye and have him not tell why or where it happened. Is just a descriptor of his physical appareance.

If the fact a character is white doesn't imply anything, why it should imply some kind of narrative conclusion that other is black, asian, female, or whatever.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:05:34


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Wasn't the problem with the Avenging Son cover not who was on it, but the fact that for some reason the marine that was biggest on the cover somehow ended up a rather minor character in the book? Same way characters in other movies like Star Wars or Justice League were big on the posters and trailers, but had side minor role in the actual movies.

Ultramar is a regular planet with people spread on all parts of it, it would make no sense for its population to have the same skin colour anyway.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Lit By the Flames of Prospero






No, it was purely because the Marine was black. Chuds tried to argue Space Marines can't be black with all sorts of nonsense, including "but gene-seed turns a SM into their Primarch" which was never true to begin with let alone in any context regarding race or ethnicity.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:17:55


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

The argument for the Space Marine was that since he was a space marine, his geneseed should have mutated him to resemble the primarch more, thus taking his skin colour with it.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:18:44


 
   
Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Galas wrote:
I don't think thats applicable to just physical characteristics of a character. And specially because Chekhov's gun principle is not a narrative law.

You can point out a character lacks and eye and have him not tell why or where it happened. Is just a descriptor of his physical appareance.

If the fact a character is white doesn't imply anything, why it should imply some kind of narrative conclusion that other is black, asian, female, or whatever.


I would point to a detail of the opposite, where the authors did adhere to Chekhov's Law for a SM Primaris character taken by Cawl shortly after the Heresy. The author made a point of exploring his memories and in particular his guilt associated with an action figure/doll which he snatched from his younger brother and never got a chance to return or apologize for. Now his brother is 10,000 years dead and gone. That little detail served a purpose.

Making a special point of pointing out their skin color or their features or their sexuality comes off as tokenism or quota filling especially when nothing is ever done with it, for any of the characters. Why make a big deal of it then? Normalize it and don't have to draw special attention to it.

Karol wrote:
Wasn't the problem with the Avenging Son cover not who was on it, but the fact that for some reason the marine that was biggest on the cover somehow ended up a rather minor character in the book? Same way characters in other movies like Star Wars or Justice League were big on the posters and trailers, but had side minor role in the actual movies.


If you mean the stormtrooper defector Finn, then I think his actor complained of that treatment of his character over the course of the series. I personally reserve judgment on the particular SM character, Areios, as I don't know whether he was just a throwaway or will appear again in the future. The Dawn of Fire novels seem to be more planned out (for GW anyway) as the later books make references to the earlier book events. So it could be there are recurring characters.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:24:25


 
   
Made in fr
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on the forum. Obviously

 kirotheavenger wrote:
The argument for the Space Marine was that since he was a space marine, his geneseed should have mutated him to resemble the primarch more, thus taking his skin colour with it.

Which doesn't make sense either, because a Marine's skin colour is determined by ambient radiation, not by the Primarch.
Speaking of which, would a Marine have green skin if the ambient radiation is the right sort? You'd think that a living weapon would have a complete range of skin pigmentation in order to deal with all possible threats.

What I have
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~1660

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Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Iracundus 799882 11182630 wrote:

Again so wrong. Clearly you know very little about dynasties, especially Imperial Chinese dynasties, where the Imperial family often also occupied part of the civil service structure. Intrigues could and did involve cliques of civil service officials and bureaucratic organs of government. Purges were only the final end result. When such conflicts and wars are ongoing with outcome undecided, the major players haven't yet been purged. Only losers get purged. The purge is the outcome after the war is over.


All fights, especially around the time of transition of power would end up in a civil war. I don't know maybe we have a different definition of what a shadow war is here. In china all transition of power seems to run along the line. Dude rises to power through a coup d'état or eunuchs plot. Starts a dynasty, and as soon as he dies, often even before that, his son start regular wars, often this ends up with someone not from the family on the throne. The partition of the country happens and China or Japan or Korea or India gets another few decades of civil war.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

Books describe the characters within all the damned time, eye colour, hair colour, gender, etc. There's nothing weird about describing the appearance in a book.

What would be weird is derailing the entire book to go on some tangent about being black. Which be entirely contrary to the stated objective of improving balance.
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Which doesn't make sense either, because a Marine's skin colour is determined by ambient radiation, not by the Primarch.
Speaking of which, would a Marine have green skin if the ambient radiation is the right sort? You'd think that a living weapon would have a complete range of skin pigmentation in order to deal with all possible threats.


yes. although I think the chance of something more close to shades of purple would be more probable. To get green you would need to get a very specific atmosphere, to filter out specific radiation waves. Technically any colour of the rainbow should be possible.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Iracundus wrote:
 Galas wrote:
I don't think thats applicable to just physical characteristics of a character. And specially because Chekhov's gun principle is not a narrative law.

You can point out a character lacks and eye and have him not tell why or where it happened. Is just a descriptor of his physical appareance.

If the fact a character is white doesn't imply anything, why it should imply some kind of narrative conclusion that other is black, asian, female, or whatever.


I would point to a detail of the opposite, where the authors did adhere to Chekhov's Law for a SM Primaris character taken by Cawl shortly after the Heresy. The author made a point of exploring his memories and in particular his guilt associated with an action figure/doll which he snatched from his younger brother and never got a chance to return or apologize for. Now his brother is 10,000 years dead and gone. That little detail served a purpose.

Making a special point of pointing out their skin color or their features or their sexuality comes off as tokenism or quota filling especially when nothing is ever done with it, for any of the characters. Why make a big deal of it then? Normalize it and don't have to draw special attention to it.


except it is a special point? most of the time in a novel when you encounter a character the character is described. that doesn't mean anything is important about it. now I agree it can come off as tokenesque if it's made a big deal of, like every line is like "sweat beaded down his dark skinned brow..... his dark skin flushed" etc where it hits you over the head with "this char has dark skin" repeatedly. But if the only thing that came of it was some cover art and a single line when first introducing the character that "sergant tim was tall, even for a space marine, with short curly hair, dark skin and a proud nose, he was a striking figure" that doesn't come off as anything other then a character description.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in pl
Fixture of Dakka




Iracundus 799882 11182691 wrote:If you mean the stormtrooper defector Finn, then I think his actor complained of that treatment of his character over the course of the series. I personally reserve judgment on the particular SM character, Areios, as I don't know whether he was just a throwaway or will appear again in the future. The Dawn of Fire novels seem to be more planned out (for GW anyway) as the later books make references to the earlier book events. So it could be there are recurring characters.


I don't know but RG succesors being albinos or salamanders being jetblack and tatooted in a such a way that only other people that can see the infrared spectrum can see it, seems like an important part of what the marines are. And if suddenly there were succesors of either , created or not created, by Cawl who lack those elements it would make sense to ask the question why. Would be like having space wolfs or space wolf succesors without canis gene helix changes. It would require explanation, and we even have one for that, which explains everything very nice.

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Karol wrote:
Iracundus 799882 11182630 wrote:

Again so wrong. Clearly you know very little about dynasties, especially Imperial Chinese dynasties, where the Imperial family often also occupied part of the civil service structure. Intrigues could and did involve cliques of civil service officials and bureaucratic organs of government. Purges were only the final end result. When such conflicts and wars are ongoing with outcome undecided, the major players haven't yet been purged. Only losers get purged. The purge is the outcome after the war is over.


All fights, especially around the time of transition of power would end up in a civil war. I don't know maybe we have a different definition of what a shadow war is here. In china all transition of power seems to run along the line. Dude rises to power through a coup d'état or eunuchs plot. Starts a dynasty, and as soon as he dies, often even before that, his son start regular wars, often this ends up with someone not from the family on the throne. The partition of the country happens and China or Japan or Korea or India gets another few decades of civil war.


OMG that is just so wrong and inaccurate. Please pick up a Chinese history textbook, a really detailed one please, and you would see that is a completely wrong generalization of the nature of the internal government politics within Imperial China except in some cases. In particular you would need to go look at the the kinds of internal politics and shadow wars that occurred within the middle of dynasties (i.e. not at the founding or the fall) to see the kind of stuff being talked about. To outward appearances, the government remains united even as the internal bureaus fight among themselves or align themselves along power lines and cliques. I hope you are not taking "fight" or "shadow war" to literally mean armies moving around or people literally always fighting with physical weapons. Sure, that could happen sometimes but that was often only one aspect of the conflicts. The fights were often as much bureaucratic and political conflicts with words, with the physical violence when things boiled over or one side could force a conclusion. As an example, the Ming dynasty operated 4 separate intelligence/secret agencies simultaneously. A modern thriller novel about conflict between different American intelligence agencies like the FBI and CIA could be transposed to the Ming dynasty, yet on the surface the American government would never admit to outright conflict between its intelligence agencies.

BrianDavion wrote:

except it is a special point? most of the time in a novel when you encounter a character the character is described. that doesn't mean anything is important about it. now I agree it can come off as tokenesque if it's made a big deal of, like every line is like "sweat beaded down his dark skinned brow..... his dark skin flushed" etc where it hits you over the head with "this char has dark skin" repeatedly.


They did do that. Not literally back to back lines but often enough for me to notice they made a special point of mentioning the skin was dark.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 11:47:23


 
   
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Karol wrote:

I don't know but RG succesors being albinos or salamanders being jetblack and tatooted in a such a way that only other people that can see the infrared spectrum can see it, seems like an important part of what the marines are. And if suddenly there were succesors of either , created or not created, by Cawl who lack those elements it would make sense to ask the question why. Would be like having space wolfs or space wolf succesors without canis gene helix changes. It would require explanation, and we even have one for that, which explains everything very nice.

The thing with gene-seed is that it can mutate depending on a number of factors. A Salamanders Successor Chapter might not ever develop the coal skin or fire eyes because it was taken from a more pure batch kept on Mars rather than a batch from Nocture where the radiation mutates it. The Carcharadons mutate in a similar way to the Raven Guard (it's very very close to the truth they are the same gene-line) but their skin gets pale but apparently feels similar to sharkskin as well. It's not hard and fast that every Successor gets the traits of the Founder.

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OMG that is just so wrong and inaccurate. Please pick up a Chinese history textbook, a detailed one please, and you would see that is a completely wrong generalization of the nature of the internal government politics within Imperial China except in some cases. In particular you would need to go look at the the kinds of internal politics and shadow wars that occurred within the middle of dynasties (i.e. not at the founding or the fall) to see the kind of stuff being talked about. To outward appearances, the government remains united even as the internal bureaus fight among themselves or align themselves along power lines and cliques. I hope you are not taking "fight" or "shadow war" to literally mean armies moving around or people literally always fighting with physical weapons. Sure, that could happen sometimes but that was often only one aspect of the conflicts.

Which one ?

And the middle dynasties were full of wars. Only mostly against peasents uprising. And durning those accidents happened, unwanted officers or officials were send to perform duties which were impossible to perform, which then ended with them being disgraced and down ranked or executed for failing. How was that anything "shadow" related. In general Chinas entire history is like that of France. Guys from the north come and loot and pillage the south. Some time passes, the goverment falls apart, new guys from the north come raid the south. what you describe as shadow "wars" is just regular working of any burocracy. That is every day life, not a war.


A Salamanders Successor Chapter might not ever develop the coal skin or fire eyes because it was taken from a more pure batch kept on Mars rather than a batch from Nocture where the radiation mutates it. The Carcharadons mutate in a similar way to the Raven Guard (it's very very close to the truth they are the same gene-line) but their skin gets pale but apparently feels similar to sharkskin as well.


There is a big difference, specially in time needed for such a mutation to happen. From skin to go from albino like, to albino like with additional futures. To jetblack skin, as a result of an infra red eye sight abilty, to be gone completly. For that to happen you need more then 10k years, and on top of that in case of primaris Cawl worked with the original gene seed, so jf anything the new batch of marines, should be closer to the ashen black salamanders from the legion times, then the results of 10k years of changes influanced by implantation in regular space marine of the salamander chapter.


They do do that. At least often enough for me to notice they make a special point of mentioning the skin is dark.

And being repeated somehow makes it bad? Folklore tales from my region for example are full of repetition of people hair colour for example. Some characters even have names like Goldenhair or Ravenhair. Female characters often have names like Fairface, as in one word for it, or Strong(as in survived many births with one word). It is a natural thing to do, to give a hero or character a description that gets repeated. Even holy texts do it too.
No one , well besides children eaten by bears, are interested that Elias had many traits including being bold, because he is always described as a prophet. Salomon is the Wise King etc

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
There is a big difference, specially in time needed for such a mutation to happen. From skin to go from albino like, to albino like with additional futures. To jetblack skin, as a result of an infra red eye sight abilty, to be gone completly. For that to happen you need more then 10k years, and on top of that in case of primaris Cawl worked with the original gene seed, so jf anything the new batch of marines, should be closer to the ashen black salamanders from the legion times, then the results of 10k years of changes influanced by implantation in regular space marine of the salamander chapter.

Not sure what you're trying to say here, it's a bit muddled.
A Salamander or Raven Guard will gain their fire eyes or pale complexion mutations in their lifetime and it starts as soon as the gene-seed is implanted. Also, there isn't actually any background that says all Salamanders must have coal-like skin, in fact, only a Salamander who has spent extensive time on Nocture will develop this to a serious degree. It just so happens that due to the nature of the Chapter's culture that most Salamanders will have the coal-skin but there is nothing that says the Terran-born members of the Legion had coal skin like their Nocturnian brothers.
So gene-seed sourced from Nocturne turns a Salamander's skin coal-like but a Successor could be made from stock that was cloned/created on Mars or Terra, thereby not receiving the mutation from the radiation of Nocturne.
   
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Karol wrote:
OMG that is just so wrong and inaccurate. Please pick up a Chinese history textbook, a detailed one please, and you would see that is a completely wrong generalization of the nature of the internal government politics within Imperial China except in some cases. In particular you would need to go look at the the kinds of internal politics and shadow wars that occurred within the middle of dynasties (i.e. not at the founding or the fall) to see the kind of stuff being talked about. To outward appearances, the government remains united even as the internal bureaus fight among themselves or align themselves along power lines and cliques. I hope you are not taking "fight" or "shadow war" to literally mean armies moving around or people literally always fighting with physical weapons. Sure, that could happen sometimes but that was often only one aspect of the conflicts.

Which one ?

And the middle dynasties were full of wars. Only mostly against peasents uprising. And durning those accidents happened, unwanted officers or officials were send to perform duties which were impossible to perform, which then ended with them being disgraced and down ranked or executed for failing. How was that anything "shadow" related. In general Chinas entire history is like that of France. Guys from the north come and loot and pillage the south. Some time passes, the goverment falls apart, new guys from the north come raid the south. what you describe as shadow "wars" is just regular working of any burocracy. That is every day life, not a war.



So you do just mean armies moving around and hitting people. That's a very simple and naive view of conflict.

Shadow wars are still wars and the whole point of "shadow" is in describing the fact these are conflicts that are more subtle and hidden from general view. Clearly you do not know enough of Chinese history to have a discussion because you are only discussing very broad simplistic and often inaccurate generalizations and stereotypes and once again you are just referring to actual wars not the kind of shadow wars that I and apparently other posters are referring to. The kind of wars fought within governments can be fought on many levels and they often were a matter of life and death for the losers. It is the same in 40K. Guilliman is in a shadow war with the reactionaries in the government and Inquisition. People are killed and things are blown up, while bureaucrats aid or hinder efforts. Meanwhile in official functions everyone is very polite and they all nod and smile and drink toasts, even while the struggle goes on beneath the surface. No purges of major players happen until they actually have lost, as some High Lords apparently already have.


And being repeated somehow makes it bad?


Yes, because as already said, and agreed to by BrianDavion, it comes off as tokenism.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 12:13:36


 
   
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Well them explain to me what Sima Yi did to the Cao clan. Was that a war or a shadow war?
Where in the history of China or any other country to be exact, did an old ruler return and tried to bring back the old ways and found no military opposition? And there was nothing polite about the workings of courts in any dynasty in China, execution, forced castration, Family members supporting different wifes of the emperor or high ranking officials having outright mini civil wars against each other. The only place stuff is civil and polite is in chronicals. Specially in those writen post factum by the victors. Then everything they do is noble, they know that X was going to be bad and Y is going to be good. And of course , if they happen to sit on the throne thanks to a coup, they always find a nice and polite legitimisation for their power grab. It is never, I killed everyone else trying to get to throne, but always stuff of the ruler X knowing his sons would be bad rulers, asked me in secret that if they were to be a danger to the great nation of Z, I should take over.

So yeah in chronicals shadow wars and being polite happens very often. A good read too. Like reading about the siege of La Rochell in the 3 musketeers, instead of something more real like the reports send to cardinal and king.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
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Karol wrote:
Well them explain to me what Sima Yi did to the Cao clan. Was that a war or a shadow war?
Where in the history of China or any other country to be exact, did an old ruler return and tried to bring back the old ways and found no military opposition? And there was nothing polite about the workings of courts in any dynasty in China, execution, forced castration, Family members supporting different wifes of the emperor or high ranking officials having outright mini civil wars against each other. The only place stuff is civil and polite is in chronicals. Specially in those writen post factum by the victors. Then everything they do is noble, they know that X was going to be bad and Y is going to be good. And of course , if they happen to sit on the throne thanks to a coup, they always find a nice and polite legitimisation for their power grab. It is never, I killed everyone else trying to get to throne, but always stuff of the ruler X knowing his sons would be bad rulers, asked me in secret that if they were to be a danger to the great nation of Z, I should take over.

So yeah in chronicals shadow wars and being polite happens very often. A good read too. Like reading about the siege of La Rochell in the 3 musketeers, instead of something more real like the reports send to cardinal and king.


Sima Yi didn't overthrow Cao. His sons did, and once again all you are doing is looking at end of dynasty events which is not what we are talking about. You don't seem to be talking about "shadow" at all, which makes then the discussion irrelevant and moot. You also only seem to focus on the final results. By the time someone is purged, castrated, or exiled, it's already over. Before then, yes things in court were polite. Court etiquette had to be adhered to. Failure to do so was socially and politically damaging, and could be fatal.

The key difference between Guilliman's return and any historical ruler is Guilliman is not human, not in the way the High Lords are or the other rulers of the Imperium are. Guilliman was revered as a demigod for thousands of years in the Imperium, then one day he actually got up and came back. No human ruler has done the equivalent. He is seen as a divine and a political figure, but he has the actual ability to back it up in a way that historical human rulers claiming divine right have not. The most cynical and power hungry of politicans might still be motivated to act but many Imperials with any modicum of religiousness (which would probably be most of them) would at least hesitate before openly acting against the Emperor's returned son. It wouldn't just be an act of political resistance or even rebellion. It would be sacrilege. That salience of religion as a motivator may be a concept that may be hard to grasp in today's less religiously inclined world where you will find few people being fervent believers in divine right of rulers.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2021/07/26 12:28:04


 
   
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Bristol

Iracundus wrote:
The most cynical and power hungry of politicans might still be motivated to act but many Imperials with any modicum of religiousness (which would probably be most of them) would at least hesitate before openly acting against the Emperor's returned son. It wouldn't just be an act of political resistance or even rebellion. It would be sacrilege. That salience of religion as a motivator may be a concept that may be hard to grasp in today's less religiously inclined world where you will find few people being fervent believers in divine right of rulers.


Said religion is virulently xenophobic, though. It is also linked to an incredibly conservative religious view on technology in which progress and innovation are often regarded as sacrilege.

Guilliman was brought back by alien sorcery and new technology. Any religious member of the Imperium would likely consider him to be just as corrupted as the traitor primarchs, just from a different source.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/26 12:53:23


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