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Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 Blackie wrote:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Daedalus81 wrote:
I know you aren't. It's just that my enjoyment and that of like-minded individuals could fuel the progression of rules that others do not enjoy and I genuinely want some sort of middle ground that makes sense for everyone.


What would ruin your enjoyment if, at the end of Turn 4, 50% of an army was left instead of 25%?


I'd also prefer to reduce lethality but that has nothing to do with AA vs IGOUGO. Lethality would be the same under AA system. It's a problem of too powerful datasheets and tools to enhance weapons/units, not a core mechanics' problem.

Those who want AA think the game favour the player who is going first (which is actually false) and/or like that game system more than IGOUGO. Typically they don't like doing nothing than rolling for saves or launching defensive stratagems for a whole turn.


To me though I can get more out of a deadlier game if there is AA allowing me to act with a unit in the turn it is destroyed most of the time.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran






W40K has too many units and units of multiple models for AA to be effective. AA would waste far too much time to go through the motions. AA would turn the battlefield into a swamp of tokens to indicate what's doing what. AA does not work, will not work for W40K. People need to let it go.
   
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 oni wrote:
W40K has too many units and units of multiple models for AA to be effective. AA would waste far too much time to go through the motions. AA would turn the battlefield into a swamp of tokens to indicate what's doing what. AA does not work, will not work for W40K. People need to let it go.


I don't disagree, but there are other activation systems besides AA and IGOUGO (impulse system, for example). The point is that the utility of IGOUGO should be examined.

I personally have been enjoying games with different impulse activation systems (or WEGO but that is difficult without a computer).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 13:57:50


 
   
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 oni wrote:
W40K has too many units and units of multiple models for AA to be effective. AA would waste far too much time to go through the motions. AA would turn the battlefield into a swamp of tokens to indicate what's doing what. AA does not work, will not work for W40K. People need to let it go.


again I love the assumption that there is one system that is AA which always works the same and never changes.

AA could mean Apoc/Epic style 'activation by detachments

AA could mean warmahordes/kill team style 'unit by unit activation'

AA could mean AOS/Kill Team 2017 style 'IGOUGO movement followed by alternating combat"

AA could even mean a loose Necromunda style 'if you select a character they can rally all units within X" to activate with them"


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, I love that this is fine:

my 100pt techpriest manipulus can repair one friendly VEHICLE or MONSTER within 3" D3 wounds, he can select 1 friendly unit within 9" and grant them +6" range and -1AP for the turn, he can reduce the CP cost of a strategic ploy stratagem by 1cp once per game so I need to track that, he allows all friendly units to ignore AP-1 and AP-2 within 6" until I have him perform an action to switch that to granting all friendly CORE units and Kataphron servitors within 6" the ability to ignore cover. He's got a warlord trait that allows me to select 1 friendly unit within 6" in the command phase and let it fall back and still shoot, and he's got a relic that allows him to select 1 enemy unit in the charge phase within 3" and cause that enemy unit to fight last. I'm using the custom rad-saturated forgeworld as well, so enemy units within 3" are always -1 strength and -1 toughness, and if an attacker targets him from over 12" away they subtract 1 from the strength characteristic of their attack. Additionally, this turn I've declared the Litany of the Electromancer, so any melee attack made against my CULT MECHANICUS keyword units (not to be confused with my SKITARII keyword units, which are currently +1WS -1BS except for the one I've selected with my Skitarii Marshal which ignores the debuff part of the rule) is -1 to hit.

^THIS IS FINE

But if I had to have a little stack of tokens, and i put down a token if I had acted with a unit, that would DEFINITELY make my head explode.

Please, feel free to "prove me wrong" here by finding one of those rules I got slightly wrong, yelling 'HA GOTCHA' and derailing the point.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/19 14:10:57


"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Halifax

There's a rule of thumb in technical writing, that people can only retain about 7-9 items in their short-term memory. Additionally, that by the time they bother to check the manual they're pissed off about some third thing, and so if your instructions require them to remember more than 3-4 items, your instructions will fail to assist them.

   
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OKC, OK USA

 oni wrote:
W40K has too many units and units of multiple models for AA to be effective. AA would waste far too much time to go through the motions. AA would turn the battlefield into a swamp of tokens to indicate what's doing what. AA does not work, will not work for W40K. People need to let it go.


AT-43 used AA with near the same amount of units of multiple models as 40K and the only tokens used were for special actions. AA isn't the same for every game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 09:53:22


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 Platuan4th wrote:

AT-43 used AA with near the same amount of units of multiple models as 40K and the only tokens used were for special actions. AA isn't the same for every game.


Well, why not just play AT-43 then, if you prefer that method?


I came to 40K from Infinity, etc., precisely because 40K ditched that horrible mechanic.
   
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Ship's Officer





Sunny Side Up wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:

AT-43 used AA with near the same amount of units of multiple models as 40K and the only tokens used were for special actions. AA isn't the same for every game.


Well, why not just play AT-43 then, if you prefer that method?


I came to 40K from Infinity, etc., precisely because 40K ditched that horrible mechanic.


Maybe he wants to play games in the Warhammer universe? Just a crazy thought. Or maybe no one around him plays AT-43 which is likely considering it's a dead game.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/20 11:51:17



 
   
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OKC, OK USA

Both of which are beside the point, which was saying "AA = tons of tokens therefore bad" shows a distinct ignorance of the variety of AA rules out there.

You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie
The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was 
   
Made in ca
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 Platuan4th wrote:
Both of which are beside the point, which was saying "AA = tons of tokens therefore bad" shows a distinct ignorance of the variety of AA rules out there.


yeah, i don't get their logic. Just place a marker by every squad as you activate them to mark that they activated then remove them at the next round of activation. its the same as tracking wounds or which units are doing actions.

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Sunny Side Up wrote:
I came to 40K from Infinity, etc., precisely because 40K ditched that horrible mechanic.

Hang on - SSU, what mechanic are you saying that 40k ditched here?

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut






 oni wrote:
W40K has too many units and units of multiple models for AA to be effective. AA would waste far too much time to go through the motions. AA would turn the battlefield into a swamp of tokens to indicate what's doing what. AA does not work, will not work for W40K. People need to let it go.


Funny, when it definitely does work and I've played various versions of it without any tokens like that on the board. Almost like there are many ways to do activation systems and consider the rules chassis as a whole while doing so.


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but...infinity isnt aa...

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
but...infinity isnt aa...




Infinity is about as far removed from AA as it gets. It's UGOIGO + units can activate over and over as long as you have orders and your opponents can react with AROs.

Hatred towards AA because you dislike Infinity makes absolutely no sense.

People are acting like putting a glass bead or a token that says "Activated" next to a unit is hard. You could literally do that in half a second and have a handful in your pocket or on the table.
   
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Annandale, VA

If you can handle remembering, in your shooting phase, both which units have already shot and which units moved or stayed stationary in the preceding movement phase, you can handle remembering which units have activated.

If not, like gibbindefs said you can use a token and it's really not a big deal. There are valid reasons to dislike AA- though general trends in the industry are overwhelmingly moving away from 40K's 90s-style pure IGOUGO- but having to keep track of what units have activated really isn't one.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/10/21 01:56:48


   
Made in us
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primarily the issue with AA (at least in my opinion) is that it breaks up the flow of the game and makes it feel less about a large army acting in consort. That's easily solveable with a simple group activation type system with either limits on or drawbacks to trying to create super-groups.

However, it's worth noting that in a game like Titanicus, which is pure AA, large units like warlord titans are considered somewhat at a natural disadvantage purely due to the size and space they take up in your list, because an opponent can use cheap units to force the big titan to commit to a move - then move their critical units out of the big titan's arcs.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





 the_scotsman wrote:
primarily the issue with AA (at least in my opinion) is that it breaks up the flow of the game and makes it feel less about a large army acting in consort. That's easily solveable with a simple group activation type system with either limits on or drawbacks to trying to create super-groups.


You mean like some kind of COMMAND system that lets you activate a few units in a row if you really need to? Like if you had a certain amount of POINTS during the game that let you break the sequence? And the points could be determined by how you build your army so more thematic cohesion gives you more points?

They could be called...order tokens!


 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






The primary issue with AA in my opinion is that GW would be the ones to implement it who both have no experience in doing so and also aren't exactly the kind of company to get stuff right on their first few tries.

AA 40k would probably be somewhat decent by 15th edition, in 2030.

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 Jidmah wrote:
The primary issue with AA in my opinion is that GW would be the ones to implement it who both have no experience in doing so and also aren't exactly the kind of company to get stuff right on their first few tries.

AA 40k would probably be somewhat decent by 15th edition, in 2030.


40k Studio as chained by the suits above them, you mean? GW has produced plenty of well working AA games and do so currently as well.

the_scotsman wrote:However, it's worth noting that in a game like Titanicus, which is pure AA, large units like warlord titans are considered somewhat at a natural disadvantage purely due to the size and space they take up in your list, because an opponent can use cheap units to force the big titan to commit to a move - then move their critical units out of the big titan's arcs.


Mh, it's not necessarily pure one to one AA, given the amount of activation shenanigans you can do with Squadroned engines (Warhounds in particular) as well as legio and maniple powers that allow extra activations on certain triggers. The base system is pretty direct and the activation economy is a big part of strategy in the game, yeah.

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Chain of Command's impulse system is pretty fantastic for AA/IGOUGO compromise.

It's a group activation system with a twist.
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:
 the_scotsman wrote:
primarily the issue with AA (at least in my opinion) is that it breaks up the flow of the game and makes it feel less about a large army acting in consort. That's easily solveable with a simple group activation type system with either limits on or drawbacks to trying to create super-groups.


You mean like some kind of COMMAND system that lets you activate a few units in a row if you really need to? Like if you had a certain amount of POINTS during the game that let you break the sequence? And the points could be determined by how you build your army so more thematic cohesion gives you more points?

They could be called...order tokens!


Sure, you could do that, or you could do IGOUGO movement with alt combat ala age of sigmar but with alt ranged and melee combat instead of just alt melee. Or you could do apoc style detachment activation where each detachment has a command radius (which would mean you could lump your whole army into one detachment but then you'd automatically struggle super hard with area control)

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
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I like the way Warcry handles monsters in its AA system.

Basically, a monster, being a huge, big, scary threat, gets more Actions than a small fighter (3 vs 2) but those 3 must be spread into different activations.

So while Bob the Iron Golem can walk and throw a bola... add a monster and it looks like this
1. Manticore moves into range of Bob.
2. Bob fights twice.
3. Manticore fights.
4. Jack moves into range and fights.
5. Manticore fights again.

Which does well for including "out of scale" things (knights/titans?) but doesn't help evoke the sweeping maneuvers of an army.
   
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Halifax

That's where the weird hybrid of the 40k Fight Phase exists as a model to AA in 40k. Extend that across three phases (Movement phase, Psychic Phase, Fight Phase) and you can fold it back into the 2nd edition rules (so charges in the movement phase - charges are movement +2D6, advances are movement +1D6, regular movement, fall backs, actions), regular psychic phase with player whose turn it is going first. Charging units attack first (barring overwatch), using both ranged and close combat weapons, then advancing units, and finally units that stood still.

   
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Rihgu wrote:

doesn't help evoke the sweeping maneuvers of an army.


Does 40k feel that way now? I don't think I ever felt 40k felt that way to me. It feels more like a bunch of units acting independently of each other because GW writes rules for support models in a very limited way (stat buffs/rerolls because the boss is nearby).

40k currently does not really give the feeling of anything being a "sweeping manoeuvre" because there's almost no need to manoeuvre at all. You don't get bonuses for firing/charging at a flank or rear of a unit, line of sight is binary, objectives are generally a point rather than a zone etc. I've never coordinated my whole army to achieve a goal, I just shoot my best guns at the most optimal targets and move troops to the nearest objective.


 
   
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 Sim-Life wrote:


40k currently does not really give the feeling of anything being a "sweeping manoeuvre" because there's almost no need to manoeuvre at all. You don't get bonuses for firing/charging at a flank or rear of a unit, line of sight is binary, objectives are generally a point rather than a zone etc. I've never coordinated my whole army to achieve a goal, I just shoot my best guns at the most optimal targets and move troops to the nearest objective.


This is not to say that your experience is wrong, or that you are playing wrong- your concerns are valid, and yes the game could be improved.

However, for me, any strat/ ability that allows advance and charge, fall back and charge, or fall back and shoot does feel like a manoeuvre. I feel like reserves are manoeuvres, and while they don't allow bonuses for flank attacks, they do offer the benefit of protecting units from fire until they arrive.

As a sisters player, deadly descent and angelic ascent feel like manouvres; I use the former frequently, though the latter is highly situational.
With DE, the drive-by attack strat feels like a manoeuvre.
Oh, and the various redeploy strats also feel like manouevres too.

Certainly, I think you're correct that there are mechanics in other games, or even other editions of this game that might have felt MORE like manoeuvres- but for me, the above achieve a good enough sense of the concept that my own personal experience of the game hasn't felt empty. Your Mileage may vary.
   
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Cardiff

I’ve not played a game of 9th where terrain hasn’t been meaningful and armies haven’t had to manoeuvre. Just can’t relate to those takes.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’ve not played a game of 9th where terrain hasn’t been meaningful and armies haven’t had to manoeuvre. Just can’t relate to those takes.


I find that my armies do have to maneuver (TAKE YOUR BRITISH SPELLING AND SHOVE IT WHERE THE SOUEUN DOESNT SHEOUN! I FOUGHT FOR MUH FREEDOMS!) but that its basically just determined by what my gameplan is going into the game.

Fast unit is going to move directly forwards to try and engage. Slow unit is going to start as near an objective as possible, move towards if it needs, and then sit until killed. deep strike unit is going to deep strike within 9" of something it wants to kill.

I decide what the tempo of the list im going to play is going to be, and generally, i just execute. Nothing really deviates from plan mostly.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in ie
Ship's Officer





PenitentJake wrote:
 Sim-Life wrote:


40k currently does not really give the feeling of anything being a "sweeping manoeuvre" because there's almost no need to manoeuvre at all. You don't get bonuses for firing/charging at a flank or rear of a unit, line of sight is binary, objectives are generally a point rather than a zone etc. I've never coordinated my whole army to achieve a goal, I just shoot my best guns at the most optimal targets and move troops to the nearest objective.


This is not to say that your experience is wrong, or that you are playing wrong- your concerns are valid, and yes the game could be improved.

However, for me, any strat/ ability that allows advance and charge, fall back and charge, or fall back and shoot does feel like a manoeuvre. I feel like reserves are manoeuvres, and while they don't allow bonuses for flank attacks, they do offer the benefit of protecting units from fire until they arrive.

As a sisters player, deadly descent and angelic ascent feel like manouvres; I use the former frequently, though the latter is highly situational.
With DE, the drive-by attack strat feels like a manoeuvre.
Oh, and the various redeploy strats also feel like manouevres too.

Certainly, I think you're correct that there are mechanics in other games, or even other editions of this game that might have felt MORE like manoeuvres- but for me, the above achieve a good enough sense of the concept that my own personal experience of the game hasn't felt empty. Your Mileage may vary.


Okay. So?
If you weren't so quick to leap to the maiden GWs defence you'd have not leap entirely over the point.

Yes, there are individual movements units can do that can be considered manoeuvres which I never denied, quite the opposite, I said that's ALL the game feels like. Individuals doing their own thing. I and the person that I was responding to were talking about armies working in concert to feel like a single entity enacting a plan.


 
   
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 the_scotsman wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’ve not played a game of 9th where terrain hasn’t been meaningful and armies haven’t had to manoeuvre. Just can’t relate to those takes.


I find that my armies do have to maneuver (TAKE YOUR BRITISH SPELLING AND SHOVE IT WHERE THE SOUEUN DOESNT SHEOUN! I FOUGHT FOR MUH FREEDOMS!) but that its basically just determined by what my gameplan is going into the game.

Fast unit is going to move directly forwards to try and engage. Slow unit is going to start as near an objective as possible, move towards if it needs, and then sit until killed. deep strike unit is going to deep strike within 9" of something it wants to kill.

I decide what the tempo of the list im going to play is going to be, and generally, i just execute. Nothing really deviates from plan mostly.


I've made decisions to not engage models, abandon objectives, sacrifice the shooting of a unit with an advance, preserved units instead of fighting, and position units that make my opponent move their counters in a way that lets me gang up on them later on.

I change what I'm doing frequently - especially to exploit bad movement by my opponent.

   
Made in de
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 JohnnyHell wrote:
I’ve not played a game of 9th where terrain hasn’t been meaningful and armies haven’t had to manoeuvre. Just can’t relate to those takes.


Same here.

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