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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Giving a 135ppm (Demolisher) unit a non degrading statline? No thank you. Especially when it has 2D6 S10 AP3 d6dam shooting. (With double shoot, or flat 12 with full payload). Yeah, I'll go ahead and say no thank you to that. I can MAYBE see it on a Superheavy like a Baneblade, but the Lehman russ shouldn't be the hardest thing on the battlefield. Hell, according to the fluff, a sufficiently pissed off space marine can rip the turret off of one with bare hands.


Uhhh, you have no idea what you're talking about here.

- With a BS of 4, that 2d6 shots translates to TWO models killed (provided they are less than 3W each)
- Only moving 5" in a game where the victor is determined in the movement phase.
- Full Payload is for artillery, like Basilisks and Manticores, which a Basilisk kills ~1.2 model per turn, a manticore (against AoC) 1.7, and are in contention for the worse units in the game. (Even with FP)
- You could be referring to 'Hail of Fire', which is max shots against a vehicle (not even a monstrous creature) for 2CP, which is no big deal in comparison to the new Tau, Eldar, Nid units, and the strats in the new codexes (like new strats having to be capped a 6MW, when my entire tank only does 7 wounds total...)
- the LRBT with a DC is 150 points, not 135, more with side sponsons (the cheapest being 30 points for a pair...)
- Throw out 'fluff' reasoning. In this game a guy with a sword is more powerful than a Battle Cannon, and 60-ton main battle tanks run away after being touched by a snotling.



   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





150 so if gw got game right should kill about 50pts when firing. Alas gw screws things up :(

2022 painted/bought: 307/419 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Here's a fun idea, lets stop focusing on the Heavy units of the Guard, since vehicles are uniformly trash along most factions of 9th. Let's focus on making guard's light/fast attack stuff actually good. Make Salamanders and Chimeras have the Assault transport rule, make Sentinels BS3+ and give the Hellhounds an "ignores Cover rule. I don't care how good your shield is. Chem cannons and Melta Cannons shouldn't have to argue with rolls.
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Giving a 135ppm (Demolisher) unit a non degrading statline? No thank you. Especially when it has 2D6 S10 AP3 d6dam shooting. (With double shoot, or flat 12 with full payload). Yeah, I'll go ahead and say no thank you to that. I can MAYBE see it on a Superheavy like a Baneblade, but the Lehman russ shouldn't be the hardest thing on the battlefield. Hell, according to the fluff, a sufficiently pissed off space marine can rip the turret off of one with bare hands.


Demolishers are 150 points. You have to pay 15 for the heavy bolter. Also, full payload can't be used on Russes.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a fun idea, lets stop focusing on the Heavy units of the Guard, since vehicles are uniformly trash along most factions of 9th. Let's focus on making guard's light/fast attack stuff actually good. Make Salamanders and Chimeras have the Assault transport rule, make Sentinels BS3+ and give the Hellhounds an "ignores Cover rule. I don't care how good your shield is. Chem cannons and Melta Cannons shouldn't have to argue with rolls.

Heck ya!

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Right now, Guard relies on infantry to perform 4 roles to win a game. Until we break this cycle, Guard aren't playing 9th.

1 - Holding Objectives
2 - move blocking our opponent
3 - screening our heavy hitters
4 - killing stuff

this was all fine and dandy in 8th, where the game wasn't near as lethal. But in 9th, and the level of lethality, we still rely on Infantry to do too much.

Buffing chimeras to 9W -1D and ObSec(5) Open-topped for ~75 points means we can put 19 semi-durable Obsec Wounds on an objective. Tanks being able to ignore infantry while moving and can move out of engagement range of INFANTRY without penalty frees up the rest of our army from having to be 100% screened, and means we provide threats on multiple fronts.

It means we've removed #3 from the Infantry To-Do list, HotE (bad fix but oh well, it's something) boosts #4. So now Infantry only has to do #1 OR #2, and can do it while protected by being in a Chimera.

That frees up Hellhouds and Sentinels to strike flanks and weakly-held objectives, and with a Strat to make a vehicle ObSec. Now heavy support is on clean-up duty.

Otherwise, we have to be ridiculously OP to even play the game, and I'm getting quite tired of the codex creep. With these changes, we don't need to be that next-level of lethality. We just removed our limiters.



   
Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I will say, worst of any of the factions, save Space MahReens, Guard have too much worthless bloat.

Units that serve little to zero purpose:
Chimeras
Deathstrikes
Ogryns (Why when you could take Bullgryns instgead?)
Platoon Leaders
Astropaths
Wyrdvane Psykers
Base Taurox
All their named Characters (looking at YOU RAINE) Except PASK
Commissars
Lord Commissars
All their Flyers except Valks
All Baneblades
75% of the LRBT catalogue
Master of Ordinance
Fleet Officers
Servitors
Tech Priests
Medics
Vox operators
Hydras
The majority of their FW stuff

Half their entire book is trash or just above the line.

You can't fix this faction without burning it to the ground first. And you can't fix it in 3 steps.

Make everything but Troops, light vehicles, and Tanks Legends, and slowly re-do the datasheets. Cut the dead weight. Why are
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






Oh Fezzik, we disagree on some units on that list:

Platoon leaders: with the recent update FRFSRF can cause quite a lot of extra wounds. More orders = more shots = more wounds. (shame that they're taking up that elite slot though).

Astropath: I usually take these in spearheads to give my tank commanders that +1 sv and -1 hit.

Hydra: if you know your enemy takes flyers they can shoot the hydra first turn so your tanks survive a little longer. As an acutal AA tank it sucks big time.

Agree with all the rest. Lots of fluffy choices that serve no real purpose like commissars.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...Units that serve little to zero purpose:
Chimeras...

Good to see your list has gotten even dumber since the last time you posted it. Will your next one be everything other than Guardsmen and LRBTs?
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

honestly they should make guard vehicles dirt cheap, like less than 50pts, they don't accomplish much and should never be more expensive than the unit inside. Id love to see mech guard on the table.

17,000 points (Valhallan)
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"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in de
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Saying you'd take Hydras if you knew your opponents list says more about what type of player you would be given the opportunity, than the usefulness of that unit.

Astropaths are a dirt cheap psyker unit that can easily be replaced by a better, dedicated psyker unit.

Same with most guard units. They have a specialist unit for literally every occasion, and now, with the advent of 9th flipping the script on how to play 40k, the generalist role reigns supreme. A unit like Bullgryns are one of their best because it does a lot of things well. Soaks up heavy fire, hard to take down, and slaughters in melee with a priest backing them up.

A lot of Guard's problems were born of the fact that they are still fighting with units designed in editions that suited them. You can't do that now. It's why GW is hamfistedly trying their best to force Primaris as the standard. What with their Primaris only sub factions now. They are trying to cut out the old dead weight that's holding back the entire faction. What good is a Predator tank when you have infantry units that can do the job better? What good is a Basalisk when their are much better options available?
   
Made in au
Rough Rider with Boomstick







I think making the standard chimera dirt cheap and reviving the storm chimera with options for a taurox battle cannon or twin auto cannons for the turretmaking that 5pts more than the current chimera. And just outright throwing the lasgun array away and saying 8 passengers may fire from the vehicle (6 from the sides, 2 from the hatch). I hate the look of those little paddly guns and useing chimeras as guntrucks(or you know, actual IFVs, should be a thing. I'd also make the taurox capable of being 'downgraded' to have base chimera guns and also being dirt cheap. Make the taurox faster, cheaper than a chimera and when + an infantry squad worth of passengers it should fill a fast attack slot.

I have issues with grinding advance. Namely that it only applies to LRBTs, like their mainline tank, you'd think that whatever tech they had in it to be able to shoot twice would translate to all imerial armour with the same calibre weapons and the same or greater turret spac, etc especially higher presigue vehicles such as the macharius which currently has the firepower of a base leman russ, despite boasting twice the guns.
Id also boost the BS of these more prestigious vehicles inherenrly up 1, as firstly, you're crews are going to have better training, secondly they are going to have better sights and targeting systems(i mean you'd hope so), thirdly they are probably going to be under less duress if they're in a giant and heavily armoured tank and fourthly a larger and more heavier vehicle actually provides a more stable firing platform. i mean look at the dimensions of a LRBT, its going to be quite hard to keep your gun on target after your first shot, its a breezy platform.

The second issue i have with grinding advance, because i am a bit pedantic, its attempting to make up for what the guard lost when they lost templates. But it does not apply to all units, such as artillery, which were great with templates. And heavy artillery should be great.
Basilisks should, be just for being a giant cannon which can fire across the entire board, one of the best units on the game. But they should be glass cannons and extremely susceptible to deep strikes outflanking or any fast attacks that break through the main line of resistance.

   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




 waefre_1 wrote:

Good to see your list has gotten even dumber since the last time you posted it. Will your next one be everything other than Guardsmen and LRBTs?


Whilst I don't agree with everything on his list, Chimeras are definitely trash. Why take a Chimera when your infantry are faster and can go through terrain? Just take more infantry.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Jarms48 wrote:
 waefre_1 wrote:

Good to see your list has gotten even dumber since the last time you posted it. Will your next one be everything other than Guardsmen and LRBTs?


Whilst I don't agree with everything on his list, Chimeras are definitely trash. Why take a Chimera when your infantry are faster and can go through terrain? Just take more infantry.

The Chimera being trash right now doesn't justify nuking it. A nerf to MMM! would immediately boost the Chimera's value, and a lot of the rest of the issues with it are generic issues with vehicles and movement/table size that affect multiple armies, not just Guard. This is just Fezz's usual mindless whine that not everything in the Guard's repertoire is absolutely SSS rank and thus deserves to be wiped, which is utterly insane and which I've never seen him apply to any other faction.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It's not that those units are worthless, it's why those units are worthless

- They can't screen
- They have no output
- They have no durability
- They don't have ObSec
- They can't perform Actions
- They don't buff other units in any meaningful way

In short, none of those units have the tools necessary to play the 9th edition missions.

Why take an 85 point chimera that has no durability for screening (since it has no output and is not ObSec) when we can take a 60-point infantry squad with ObSec to do the same. Bullgryns are supposed to be a bully unit, but they lack durability, output and/or ObSec to actually bully anything but Gretchin.

Given Guard points costs, most Guard units have HALF the output of similar priced units, or have some restriction on them that was representative of an static 8th edition gunline army. We don't get re-rolls (or only get them on targets over 36" away on a 6x4 board...), our strats are overpriced, etc.
   
Made in nl
Regular Dakkanaut






FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Saying you'd take Hydras if you knew your opponents list says more about what type of player you would be given the opportunity, than the usefulness of that unit.


Ok, was nice talking to you.
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus






 DoctorDanny wrote:
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Saying you'd take Hydras if you knew your opponents list says more about what type of player you would be given the opportunity, than the usefulness of that unit.


Ok, was nice talking to you.


Yeah, imagine implying that taking a unit designed to be "sideboarded" when facing things its good against is TFG behavior.

Hydras really need the same kind of updage that Onager Dunecrawlers got, where they don't get -1 to hit against non flyers at the very least.
   
Made in us
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





brainpsyk wrote:
It's not that those units are worthless, it's why those units are worthless

- They can't screen
- They have no output
- They have no durability
- They don't have ObSec
- They can't perform Actions
- They don't buff other units in any meaningful way

In short, none of those units have the tools necessary to play the 9th edition missions.

...Which is eminently fixable with rules changes (either in-codex or in-BRB). If somebody wants to justify removing so many units, the onus would be on them to prove that these units cannot be fixed. So far all I've seen from Fezz is whining that "balans hard tho ;_;", which is contemptibly inadequate to the task especially in a thread where fixes for these issues have been actively discussed.
Why take an 85 point chimera that has no durability for screening (since it has no output and is not ObSec) when we can take a 60-point infantry squad with ObSec to do the same. Bullgryns are supposed to be a bully unit, but they lack durability, output and/or ObSec to actually bully anything but Gretchin.

Lore? Army composition? Scenarios? To tone down/add variety to your list because you're teaching someone else to play? Because not everyone plays in Karol's hellworld meta and a Chimera can be fine even if it's not 110% efficient at its role? Because someone just fething wants to? Seriously, it's not hard at all to come up with reasons to use "subpar" units.
Given Guard points costs, most Guard units have HALF the output of similar priced units, or have some restriction on them that was representative of an static 8th edition gunline army. We don't get re-rolls (or only get them on targets over 36" away on a 6x4 board...), our strats are overpriced, etc.

All of which, again, can be fixed with rules changes in the new 'dex. Will they? I don't know, we'll have to wait to find out (much as I hate to use the phrase). I do know what won't fix them, though - crippling the entire 'dex and gakking all over the playerbase by invalidating entire playstyles because Fezz, specifically, doesn't like that IG have options.
   
Made in au
Rough Rider with Boomstick







FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Giving a 135ppm (Demolisher) unit a non degrading statline? No thank you. Especially when it has 2D6 S10 AP3 d6dam shooting. (With double shoot, or flat 12 with full payload). Yeah, I'll go ahead and say no thank you to that. I can MAYBE see it on a Superheavy like a Baneblade, but the Lehman russ shouldn't be the hardest thing on the battlefield. Hell, according to the fluff, a sufficiently pissed off space marine can rip the turret off of one with bare hands.


Well a sufficiently pissed off spacemarine can also apparently beat an adeptus custodes or an avatar of Khaine to death with his bare hands if you go by the fluff. Its also stated that custodes can slay spacemarines like spacemarines slay guardsmen(although a sufficiently pissed off Sly Marbo could also probably beat a squad of CSM to death with their own bolt guns as well), and that hormigaunts can cut through power armour(cut being the active word here, not stab into the gaps between plates, but cut through it, like whack whack there goes a limb). There is a lot of factional BS in the fluff it is very contradictory and does not always make sense and is probably not meant to be taken at face value. I mean, no wonder why your hyperthetical marine was so pissed off, he must have misplaced his melta charges...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/05/10 22:00:02


   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




brainpsyk wrote:
It's not that those units are worthless, it's why those units are worthless

- They can't screen
- They have no output
- They have no durability
- They don't have ObSec
- They can't perform Actions
- They don't buff other units in any meaningful way

In short, none of those units have the tools necessary to play the 9th edition missions.

Why take an 85 point chimera that has no durability for screening (since it has no output and is not ObSec) when we can take a 60-point infantry squad with ObSec to do the same. Bullgryns are supposed to be a bully unit, but they lack durability, output and/or ObSec to actually bully anything but Gretchin.

Given Guard points costs, most Guard units have HALF the output of similar priced units, or have some restriction on them that was representative of an static 8th edition gunline army. We don't get re-rolls (or only get them on targets over 36" away on a 6x4 board...), our strats are overpriced, etc.


The horrifying thing is, I'm half expecting Bullgryn and things like them to get a nerf or a points hike, because they show up in large units in some influencer videos (like Tabletop Tactics, who are among the folks that get sent playtest stuff. Though they take them because they like them, mostly.)

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Guard Heavy Weapon Crewman




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say, worst of any of the factions, save Space MahReens, Guard have too much worthless bloat.

Units that serve little to zero purpose:
Chimeras
Deathstrikes
Ogryns (Why when you could take Bullgryns instgead?)
Platoon Leaders
Astropaths
Wyrdvane Psykers
Base Taurox
All their named Characters (looking at YOU RAINE) Except PASK
Commissars
Lord Commissars
All their Flyers except Valks
All Baneblades
75% of the LRBT catalogue
Master of Ordinance
Fleet Officers
Servitors
Tech Priests
Medics
Vox operators
Hydras
The majority of their FW stuff

Half their entire book is trash or just above the line.

You can't fix this faction without burning it to the ground first. And you can't fix it in 3 steps.

Make everything but Troops, light vehicles, and Tanks Legends, and slowly re-do the datasheets. Cut the dead weight. Why are


All this "bloat" is extremely fluffy units. While I agree that focusing on a smaller set of data sheets would make balancing easier, that can be done internally. Once the core units are feeling good, expand the focus. And while chimeras aren't great, getting rid of them would get rid of mechanized guard lists as an option. I came to guard for the tanks (big gun go boom makes me happy lol). I have always run mech guard. Other people run pure infantry guard and the fact that guard can accommodate both and everything in between is something we need to keep in the codex.

Also, if you play casual, I suggest trying emperor's blade (yes, I know, that's why I said casual). Overwatch on a 4+ with all of a chimera's weapons is fun and makes your opponent second guess things. Plus you can overwatch again on 6+ with the usual overwatch strat.

In more comical news, I've come to the conclusion that the only way I'd take a deathstike is if it cost less than 5 points and I had the points left over (I'm joking of course, at some point it becomes cheap enough that it's viable as a heavy bolter or flamer platform)
   
Made in de
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






I think two things you could do to the deathstrike that would also make more sense regarding it's an ICBM on a very small battlefield:

1. instead of making damage it creates VP. If your opponent cannot keep you from firing an ICBM on a command bunker off table, you deserve some VP
2. its a giant Cyclops demolition charge. If you fracked up enough that the enemy came that close to your ICBM you might as well use it as a suicide charge. But then it should really do some damage.

~7000 build and painted 
   
Made in us
Guardsman with Flashlight




South Africa

The big issue with the current Guard codex is that it was made for a different codex where the rules for detachments and command points were very different. In fact, it was even before the rule of 3 became official.

So for minor rules that can be fit into the next dataslate I would do the following.

1) All the regimental orders count as ordinary orders. The infantry ones as well as the tank ones. The Tallarn order can be very useful. The other regimental orders can also help in a very situational fashion.

2) Make it so that 1 lascannon and 2 heavy bolters don't cost 50pts for the baneblade so one can run one with sponsons without it driving up the price 25%

3) This is the big one, the biggest problem with the guard is that it gives up victory points so easily with almost any of the rules. So I would turn that around. The imperial guard should get a faction secondary that counts 1vp for each Guard unit destroyed. It is thematic in that high command would consider a unit that isn't taking heavy casualties as one that simply is trying hard enough. The extra 15 vp from this would make a big difference in allowing the imperial guard to actually win battles.
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




Dirk Reinecke wrote:
The big issue with the current Guard codex is that it was made for a different codex where the rules for detachments and command points were very different. In fact, it was even before the rule of 3 became official.

So for minor rules that can be fit into the next dataslate I would do the following.

1) All the regimental orders count as ordinary orders. The infantry ones as well as the tank ones. The Tallarn order can be very useful. The other regimental orders can also help in a very situational fashion.

2) Make it so that 1 lascannon and 2 heavy bolters don't cost 50pts for the baneblade so one can run one with sponsons without it driving up the price 25%

3) This is the big one, the biggest problem with the guard is that it gives up victory points so easily with almost any of the rules. So I would turn that around. The imperial guard should get a faction secondary that counts 1vp for each Guard unit destroyed. It is thematic in that high command would consider a unit that isn't taking heavy casualties as one that simply is trying hard enough. The extra 15 vp from this would make a big difference in allowing the imperial guard to actually win battles.


I actually like 1 and 3, but 2 is wrong for several reasons.

Currently, there is no rule stating how many sponsons a Baneblade can take. It is required to have at least 2, but it just says "You can add two more for X cost". IF they clear that up and say you can only have a max of 4 per tank, I see no issue in making them baked into the total cost, instead of extra.

I do think that Baneblades are kinda a broken thing that either need a different game, or a completely different ruleset to actually be viable. You can't give them Invulns, that would be broken, and you can't give them better BS/WS as that would also be borked. Again, and I hate to say it because they are easily my favorite model in my collection, but they really have zero use in current 40k, where small teams of units are the key these days.

I think we should take a frank look at the possibility of allowing Guard to Break the Ro3 or the other universal game rules that hamper other horde armies. Let them DS on turn 1, or let them pick and choose the order of phases? Shoot, combat Psychic, Move, then the opponent goes.
   
Made in us
Powerful Pegasus Knight





#1 acknowledge that the guard is not a monolith. The guard is THE most varied fighting force in the universe. From elite shock troops, stealth specialists, siege aficionados, armored might, human waves, and air cavalry, the guard has it all. Why i literally cannot even run a list with more than two valkyries or three veterans is beyond me. I can no longer even run my army anymore under the current rule of 3 and aircraft limitations....

#2 fix the lasgun and veterans / troopers in general. When a unit only really exists to sit there on an objective, or be cannon fodder I tend to not find that interesting, fun, or engaging. I play guard for the guardsmen and their heroics. When that's impossible why would I want to play guard?

#3 give us fast attack options that actually work. I would like to actually be able to play aggressively rather than stand back and do nothing...
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




 Sledgehammer wrote:
#1 acknowledge that the guard is not a monolith. The guard is THE most varied fighting force in the universe. From elite shock troops, stealth specialists, siege aficionados, armored might, human waves, and air cavalry, the guard has it all. Why i literally cannot even run a list with more than two valkyries or three veterans is beyond me. I can no longer even run my army anymore under the current rule of 3 and aircraft limitations....

#2 fix the lasgun and veterans / troopers in general. When a unit only really exists to sit there on an objective, or be cannon fodder I tend to not find that interesting, fun, or engaging. I play guard for the guardsmen and their heroics. When that's impossible why would I want to play guard?

#3 give us fast attack options that actually work. I would like to actually be able to play aggressively rather than stand back and do nothing...


I think this is a really great point. Guard are built with the idea of SUPER DEFENSIVE play in mind. Obviously this style of gameplay is no longer valid, or even possible. How do we force guard to play offensive style, but still keep them as "guard style"? This is where I think heavily focusing on infantry rushes, deep striking, etc. Loading up 3 transports or Valks, with Full plasma/Melta Scions and dropping them turn 1 in the enemy flanks or rear is a really great feeling. That should be rewarded, more than just sitting back and holding the line with Wyverns and Mortars/HB teams.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







My solution to IG has been to play 4th edition with the excellent 3.5 book, as well as the sub lists like Armored Company and the artillery company lists, Armored Battlegroup (the dilemmas for a tank lover!), Elysians, etc.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/11 22:21:28


 
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Here's a fun idea, lets stop focusing on the Heavy units of the Guard, since vehicles are uniformly trash along most factions of 9th. Let's focus on making guard's light/fast attack stuff actually good. Make Salamanders and Chimeras have the Assault transport rule, make Sentinels BS3+ and give the Hellhounds an "ignores Cover rule. I don't care how good your shield is. Chem cannons and Melta Cannons shouldn't have to argue with rolls.


Why would you make Sentinels BS3+? There's no lore reason for that at all. Sentinels are also one of the best options Guard still have left. Incredibly durable for their point cof sts, decently mobile, and can count for a ton of obsec models with the Cadian stratagem. The only issue with Sentinels current is their weapon upgrade costs. Drop each of those by 5 points and they would be fine, IE:

- Heavy flamer or autocannon: 5 point upgrade.
- Missile launcher, lascannon, or plasma cannon: 10 point upgrade.

Also just buff the Sentinel Chainsword to give +1 Attack like regular Chainswords would be nice too.

Salamanders aren't transports. They're also Legends. If they do come back, they should be somewhere between Sentinels and Hellhounds. Faster than both, more durable than Sentinels but less durable than Hellhounds, with twice the firepower as Sentinels.

Hellhounds could be fixed by points, something around:
- Bane Wolf: 85 points.
- Devil Dog: 90 points.
- Hellhound: 100 points.

Would make them okay. If the Bane Wolf chem cannon was increased to 12 inch range that would be nice. Inferno cannon to 18 would be nice as well. Then the Devil Dog melta cannon to heavy 3, which could probably make it go up to around 95 - 100 points.

The Chimera would be more useful when MMM is nerfed. That really is its biggest issue right now. I'd also do the same thing as Sentinels and reduce its weapon upgrade costs by 5 points. Meaning a double heavy bolter or heavy flamer Chimera is 80 points rather than 85 points.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I will say, worst of any of the factions, save Space MahReens, Guard have too much worthless bloat.

Units that serve little to zero purpose:
Chimeras
Deathstrikes
Ogryns (Why when you could take Bullgryns instgead?)
Platoon Leaders
Astropaths
Wyrdvane Psykers
Base Taurox
All their named Characters (looking at YOU RAINE) Except PASK
Commissars
Lord Commissars
All their Flyers except Valks
All Baneblades
75% of the LRBT catalogue
Master of Ordinance
Fleet Officers
Servitors
Tech Priests
Medics
Vox operators
Hydras
The majority of their FW stuff

Half their entire book is trash or just above the line.


- Chimeras: Already covered above.
- Deathstrikes: There's no saving them right now. They need to be completely redone. Either make it a traditional weapon, one-shot only and devastating damage. Keep the mortal wound thing but make it more devastating. Even some kind of VP generation could be interesting, maybe 3 primary points on a turn it's successfully fired. Anyway GW choose to go, they have to make it more reliable to actually fire in the first place.
- Ogryns: Presumably GW will give both Ogryns and Bullgryns a 5+++ save, as well as the new Bodyguard ability and remove the Ogryn Bodyguard datasheet. Ogryns at 20 points per model would be alright with that and their current datasheet.
- Platoon Leaders: They're fine at the moment, they do exactly what they need to. Provide orders. Though presumably GW will make them some kind of secondary HQ choice with RR1 to Wound auras. Like SM Lieutenants.
- Astropaths: Are also fine at the moment, everyone takes them over Primaris Psykers and Wyrdvanes. That's why they keep getting nerfed. In fact they've become even more useful for denying Armour of Contempt armies light cover. If anything, Guard just need better Psychic Powers in general.
- Wyrdvane Pskyers: They are trash. A point drop to 5 points per model could make them useful, either as cheap batteries for the stratagem or the ability to field units of 6 for 30 points for the +2 to cast. One way to fix them is remove the single D6 and just leave them as regular Pskyers, maybe allow them to give their modifier to a nearby Primaris instead of using it for themselves.
- Taurox needs to be far cheaper. If it was 75 points it wouldn't be terrible. Better firepower and speed to the Chimera, but less transport capacity and durability.
- Most named characters need to be cheaper as well, or just have better stat-lines. Yarrick for example should be around 80 - 90 points, not 105.
- Commissars and Lord Commissars either need to be better support characters or better fighting characters. Lord Commissars could go up to 5 wounds and 4 attacks, then they might be okay for 40 points. Means they can actually do something with their power sword or power fist.
- Other flyers, again, either massive point drops or better weapons.
- Baneblades: Need BS3+, if a Tank Commander gets it they should too. They also need some kind of -1 damage, 2+ save (still stupid the Russ got a 2+ and not the Baneblade), and more wounds. Sponsons could also be free, and the additional sponson option removed.
- Russes: Either need to be both cheaper and have better point costs between variants. Though, I assume GW will buff their weapons in the next codex. From rumours they're getting +1 to Hit on turret weapons as well as the ability for turret weapons to shoot outside engagement range. If they also get -1 damage and 14 wounds they'd be okay.
- Master of Ordinance: Should be able to buff any Artillery unit, as well as have their minimum range reduced to 18 inch.
- Fleet Officers: If aircraft get better than they'd become more useful.
- Servitors: Honestly, they should just become additional models to all Tech-Priest and Tech-Marine characters. As well as make those units repair ability more reliable. So each Servitor with a servo arm could add +1 to a repair roll, so instead of D3 you could repair flat 3 wounds if you have 2 Servitors accompanying your Tech-Priest.
- Tech-Priest profile should just match the Ad-Mech one. If they get the ability to give a +1 to Hit to Guard vehicles that would be nice.
- Medics: All they need is the Apothecary treatment. 6 inch aura of 6+++, heals D3 lost wounds on a single model, then a stratagem to revive models. Say D3 Guardsmen or 1 Ogryn.
- Voxes: Should be treated exactly like Data Tethers.
- Hydras: Their statline and weapons are fine, all that needs to change is their weapon ability. Get rid of the debuff against non-flyers. Keep the +1 against flyers and they'd be fine.
- FW stuff either need massive point drops, better statlines, or better synergy with the rest of the codex. Such as inclusion with stratagems.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Unit1126PLL wrote:
My solution to IG has been to play 4th edition with the excellent 3.5 book, as well as the sub lists like Armored Company and the artillery company lists, Armored Battlegroup (the dilemmas for a tank lover!), Elysians, etc.


What I like to do is use the 5th edition codex, with the 3.5 edition codex and armoured company doctrines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/05/12 01:07:25


 
   
Made in hu
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot





Jarms48 wrote:
[Why would you make Sentinels BS3+? There's no lore reason for that at all.

Sentinel pilots are supposed to be elite-ish, or at least a cut above the normal guardsman. This is in the lore for quite some time, and I think in the old RPG the Sentinel pilot even gets extra Ballistic Skill, so there is that.

My armies:
14000 points 
   
Made in us
Monster-Slaying Daemonhunter




I feel like a "command" sentinel wouldn't be a bad option. Gives nearby (12"ish range) sentinels +1 to BS, and +6" range on shooting. Has to be a scout sentinel.

Make Armored Sentinels T7 W9, and Scout Versions T6 with W7 and an 14" move, and they'd be worth actually taking as harrying units. A Squad of 3 with HFs actually gives a pretty awesome Alpha Strike, with 3d6 Auto-hitting S5 AP1 D1, for only 132 points. Even on a large map, with Scout move the should be able to get in close and do good work turn 1.
   
Made in au
Stalwart Veteran Guard Sergeant




Western Australia

What if Tank Commanders were allowed to operate Baneblades? Or most vehicles? I.e. 'any vehicle may take a Tank Commander upgrade, in which case that vehicle occupies a HQ slot instead of its usual slot'.

In a Baneblade for example, this would help solve both the Baneblade's poor efficiency and the Tank Commander's vulnerability. Ideally it'd be coupled with more auras and fewer self-orders. And above all else it's just fluffy for the tank commander to be operating out of the biggest, meanest tank on the battlefield.



"Authoritarian dogmata are the means by which one breeds a submissive slave, not a thinking, fighting soldier of humanity."
- Field-Major Decker, 14th Desert Rifles

 
   
 
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