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2023/03/28 19:10:06
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
I originally hated Power, but it has become more and more relevant now that war gear has more or less become "free." I have definitely warmed up to it thanks to crusade.
2023/03/28 19:25:32
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
I don't have to even argue my point, because you already have power level for those of you unwilling to see the light of day.
Also, if the combination of rules, stats and points are useless for balancing . . . What do yo
you propose one balances with?
^^^^This. If you want to play using Power Level, then do it. It exists. Leave everyone else alone.
2023/03/28 19:29:59
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
In short, what I want form points in 10th isn't going to happen. .
Good! Because it's a dumb idea! If you don't want list-building granularity, play Power Level. If you want better balance, achieve it with a combination of stats, rules and points.
Implying any of those have ever done anything for balance. Points is as bad if not worse than PL, don't delude yourself.
I don't have to even argue my point, because you already have power levelfor those of you unwilling to see the light of day.
Also, if the combination of rules, stats and points are useless for balancing . . . What do you propose one balances with?
As per usual the lack of understanding is being compensated by vague insults being lobbied. Whilst you continue to deal in absolutes for some unknown reason and suggest that anyone using the other supported army building method is a no-lifer. Options can be balanced at the same cost, even if that cost is 0. It doesn't mean that every option should be 0, but conversely it also doesn't mean that everything should have a points value if it isn't justified. It's possible to have options that fill different niches and cost 0 points, such as the various intercessor guns.
There's another thread open if you want to continue basking in sunlight preaching the value of 1pt bolt pistols elsewhere.
2023/03/28 19:36:18
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
2023/03/28 19:43:49
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
because it highlights the huge issues with trying to balance out the game as is using the pointing structure and scale they have now. The last time this went around people defending the 1pt bolt pistol got as far as using the word "pointless" in terms of it's output and "I use it to fill spare points in my army" as it's actual merits are negligible to the point it may as well be free given the impact on the game. If you multiplied everything's points by 10, yeah it likely has a value you can reasonably ascribe to it that's below 10 at that point.
My other issue is making options that only serve to be cheap, or rather making things that just outright better for no reason other than to be better and cost points. I personally don't like that a power sword is undebatable as better than a chainsword. Its purpose was to allow the bearer cut through armour better, but as it's forced to be on the same model with the same attack profile as the kife/chainsword/shovel etc it is just functionally better. If you expect to be in melee you take it, because it's stupid not to. if you aren't in melee you don't take it to save points and it may as well not exist. I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
2023/03/28 20:13:51
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
2023/03/28 20:21:12
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
And the fleshborer was an assault 12" bolter, look at it now.
2023/03/28 20:27:18
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
And the fleshborer was an assault 12" bolter, look at it now.
And that went over well with how many people again?
2023/03/28 20:32:45
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
because it highlights the huge issues with trying to balance out the game as is using the pointing structure and scale they have now. The last time this went around people defending the 1pt bolt pistol got as far as using the word "pointless" in terms of it's output and "I use it to fill spare points in my army" as it's actual merits are negligible to the point it may as well be free given the impact on the game. If you multiplied everything's points by 10, yeah it likely has a value you can reasonably ascribe to it that's below 10 at that point.
But by your own admission, one could also achieve a Bolt Pistol worth 1, 2, or 3 points by changing it's stats or the rules around it. A good example is the same Bolt Pistol but in the pre-8th AP paradigm, when it had AP 5 and ignored a Guardsmans armor, which made it a more impressive upgrade than it is today.
My other issue is making options that only serve to be cheap, or rather making things that just outright better for no reason other than to be better and cost points. I personally don't like that a power sword is undebatable as better than a chainsword. Its purpose was to allow the bearer cut through armour better, but as it's forced to be on the same model with the same attack profile as the kife/chainsword/shovel etc it is just functionally better. If you expect to be in melee you take it, because it's stupid not to. if you aren't in melee you don't take it to save points and it may as well not exist. I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
I'm never going to agree with this, and imo it's just arbitrary. Absolutely there should be weapons at different power levels, both for the sake of lore and for the sake of the game and list building. It's perfectly acceptable to have a paradigm where a Chainsword is less powerful than a Power Sword, which is less powerful than a Power Fist, which is less powerful than a Thunder Hammer. All of them are things which can increase a units CC capability, and they can be pointed differently and according to their value. To smash items such as these together is to reduce design space and reduce the engagement of those of us who enjoy listbuilding and squeezing every bit out of our units.
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
And the fleshborer was an assault 12" bolter, look at it now.
And that went over well with how many people again?
About as well as many of the other design choices GW have made of late. But leave things as they are you'll never see dedicated melee units with chainswords on the sergeant and you'll never see dedicated shooting units with anything else. Such options. Such engagement. Such legacy preserved.
2023/03/28 20:39:48
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
And the fleshborer was an assault 12" bolter, look at it now.
And that went over well with how many people again?
About as well as many of the other design choices GW have made of late. But leave things as they are you'll never see dedicated melee units with chainswords on the sergeant
You DO see it when you're doing budget or you get weight of attacks, so you're already wrong on that front.
2023/03/28 20:53:37
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
I don't see that at any point, I'm sorry I don't see enjoyment in options being basic, better, betterer. I'd rather different weapons performed different functions. Time will tell what they'll do at this point.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/28 20:53:52
2023/03/28 21:12:41
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
About as well as many of the other design choices GW have made of late. But leave things as they are you'll never see dedicated melee units with chainswords on the sergeant and you'll never see dedicated shooting units with anything else. Such options. Such engagement. Such legacy preserved.
Might I chime in here and mention that I've put Powerfists on my Tactical Sergeants, as well as Chainswords on my Assault Squad Sergeants at times in the past, back when Wargear cost points. . .
Insectum7 wrote: I never said different options couldn't cost the same amount of points. What I'm waiting for is a compelling reason why all available options should cost the same.
I'll leave you to it then, as that's pretty much you agreeing with my stance on quite a few levels.
So then why all the fuss bout a 1 pt Bolt Pistol?
I'd rather the melee guy has to choose between being better at something by having a chainsword other than being a meatbag.
The Chainsword is not a better weapon than any Power Weapon variant and will never be. It needs to cost more. It's literally that simple.
And the fleshborer was an assault 12" bolter, look at it now.
And that went over well with how many people again?
About as well as many of the other design choices GW have made of late. But leave things as they are you'll never see dedicated melee units with chainswords on the sergeant and you'll never see dedicated shooting units with anything else. Such options. Such engagement. Such legacy preserved.
Such hyperbole....
Of course you'll see such things. Why? Because there's a very great # of people out there who don't change out what they've armed a squad with once it's built (unless new rules actually make the choice illegal).
All they do is ask "how much does a ____ cost now?"
2023/03/28 23:42:51
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp.
If one item is objectively better than another item*, and there's no sacrifice/cost associated with taking the better item, then there is no reason to take the lesser item, so you always take the better item.
This is why any sort of upgrade should cost points.
*That is to say it has no inherent downsides or special rules that would make it a side-grade or lateral shift from the default piece of equipment.
Dudeface wrote: I don't see that at any point, I'm sorry I don't see enjoyment in options being basic, better, betterer. I'd rather different weapons performed different functions. Time will tell what they'll do at this point.
Basic weapons DO perform other functions via their lower cost. Believe it or not, weapons are "basic, better, betterer" in real life too. Options shouldn't just be equal because you don't like that.
2023/03/29 01:34:30
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
H.B.M.C. wrote: Why is this such a difficult concept for some people to grasp.
If one item is objectively better than another item*, and there's no sacrifice/cost associated with taking the better item, then there is no reason to take the lesser item, so you always take the better item.
This is why any sort of upgrade should cost points.
That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
2023/03/29 01:51:34
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
ccs wrote: That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
That... doesn't mean it's good design, it means there are reasons wholly unrelated to the game that might dissuade someone from taking the in-game objectively better choice.
Like yeah, maybe there are real-world practical concerns that stop you from making the most of the broken rules, but the rules are still broken. I certainly don't want to crack open a new codex and find that the models I've assembled are irredeemably inferior to other options.
ccs wrote: Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
You're a fun person.
ccs wrote: But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
What has that got to do with anything I just said?
ccs wrote: That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
That... doesn't mean it's good design, it means there are reasons wholly unrelated to the game that might dissuade someone from taking the in-game objectively better choice.
Like yeah, maybe there are real-world practical concerns that stop you from making the most of the broken rules, but the rules are still broken. I certainly don't want to crack open a new codex and find that the models I've assembled are irredeemably inferior to other options.
Rules are always broken. Points, power. Both are equally broken. Just what is broken varies. In points x is broken, in power y is broken.
Iif you don't want broken ditch both. Complaining about broken while using either is just silly and shows you don't know how they work.
2024 painted/bought: 109/109
2023/03/29 04:04:43
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
Dudeface wrote: My other issue is making options that only serve to be cheap, or rather making things that just outright better for no reason other than to be better and cost points.
The point is to reflect the models and fluff, you should have the option to upgrade to a bolt pistol if the fluff or your kit comes with the option of a bolt pistol, it's that simple. The argument for 1 pt bolt pistols being superior to 0 pt bolt pistols is very simple. You have no argument to support keeping a laspistol in a world where bolt pistols are 0, I have an argument for upgrading to a 1 pt bolt pistol. It doesn't really matter how bad my argument is as long as I have an argument and you have none I win by definition unless you can prove that my argument is illogical and you can't because Strength 4 is inarguably better than Strength 3.
ccs wrote: That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
That... doesn't mean it's good design, it means there are reasons wholly unrelated to the game that might dissuade someone from taking the in-game objectively better choice.
Like yeah, maybe there are real-world practical concerns that stop you from making the most of the broken rules, but the rules are still broken. I certainly don't want to crack open a new codex and find that the models I've assembled are irredeemably inferior to other options.
Rules are always broken. Points, power. Both are equally broken. Just what is broken varies. In points x is broken, in power y is broken.
Iif you don't want broken ditch both. Complaining about broken while using either is just silly and shows you don't know how they work.
In points x is broken, in power x + y is broken. It takes a concerted effort for points to be as broken as PL. I'd like an incentive to take a hyperphase sword instead of a warscythe, PL doesn't give me one. Now pts could be even more broken than PL by making hyperphase swords more expensive than warscythes, but the moment hyperphase swords cost 1 less point than a warscythe I have an incentive in points I will never have in PL.
2023/03/29 04:16:23
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
Yes. The problems of course start when we try to judge what a little circle and plenty of people means, in regards to the world as a whole. Because anyone could just flip it and say that your weapon not changing group of plenty of people is in fact smaller, then the little circle. What I do know is that are plenty of people who are selling 3d prints, both in and outside of the country, and while it is true that all things get sold. The number of thunder hammers ordered at the end of 8th and the number of thunder hammers at the end of 9th are not the same. And no one is ordering stuff like rocket launchers or flamers.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2023/03/29 06:19:25
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
vict0988 wrote: You have no argument to support keeping a laspistol in a world where bolt pistols are 0, I have an argument for upgrading to a 1 pt bolt pistol. It doesn't really matter how bad my argument is as long as I have an argument and you have none I win by definition unless you can prove that my argument is illogical and you can't because Strength 4 is inarguably better than Strength 3.
You're right, that upgrade which will on average return 0.2 points of value at best is definitely of significant value to your force and you will surely win games based on your ability to buy over priced 1pt bolt pistols. I surrender.
If you want a challenge, price the grenade launcher.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/29 06:20:30
2023/03/29 07:57:45
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
If he plays enough games of course. If someone plays once every quarter, then I am not even sure how they will keep up with the sesonal FoC change, because I expect GW to go full AoS sesons with the new edition, in that aspect.
A grenade launcher if not taken, because of some extra special rule, will never be taken if melta and plasma cost the same or 0 points.
But I can imagine GW giving lets say inquisitorial stormtroopers special grenades, and suddenly being able to shot some of them at 24" can be considered an option worth taking. It is like in 8th BAs could make power swords work, because they had +1 to wound.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2023/03/29 08:17:11
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
vict0988 wrote: You have no argument to support keeping a laspistol in a world where bolt pistols are 0, I have an argument for upgrading to a 1 pt bolt pistol. It doesn't really matter how bad my argument is as long as I have an argument and you have none I win by definition unless you can prove that my argument is illogical and you can't because Strength 4 is inarguably better than Strength 3.
You're right, that upgrade which will on average return 0.2 points of value at best is definitely of significant value to your force and you will surely win games based on your ability to buy over priced 1pt bolt pistols. I surrender.
If you want a challenge, price the grenade launcher.
Once again, that .2 return is against only one specific opponent. Also a 20% return can be argued to be good.
2023/03/29 08:45:13
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
vict0988 wrote: You have no argument to support keeping a laspistol in a world where bolt pistols are 0, I have an argument for upgrading to a 1 pt bolt pistol. It doesn't really matter how bad my argument is as long as I have an argument and you have none I win by definition unless you can prove that my argument is illogical and you can't because Strength 4 is inarguably better than Strength 3.
You're right, that upgrade which will on average return 0.2 points of value at best is definitely of significant value to your force and you will surely win games based on your ability to buy over priced 1pt bolt pistols. I surrender.
If you want a challenge, price the grenade launcher.
Why does something need to provide significant value to cost pts? What is significant? GW doesn't think 20 lascannons are significant or that upgrading nothing to 16 boltguns is significant. Why are Monoliths significant? Just let me take up to 3 for free, I'll pay for the weapon upgrade if I take them, anything else would be silly /sarcasm. A chainsword is superior to a power sword against Orks and Daemons, I could agree to that costing 0 on an Astra Militarum Sergeant because the power sword isn't strictly better, I'd count the advantage given as being insignificant. But strictly better needs to cost points and any non-zero improvement needs to be met with a non-zero increase in points.
Grenade launcher is worth 0, easy. Let's say I'm wrong and it's worth 10 pts, why would that matter to the discussion? If it's worth 1 less point than a lasgun then that's possible to implement as well. I'm not pretending to know what Astra Militarum weapons are worth, it's just logic that the right value is non-zero for most of them. I already gave out values in the previous thread anyway and I think I gave some very reasonable numbers and I don't think anyone was able to point out the numbers were super out of wack.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/03/29 08:53:24
2023/03/29 13:27:28
Subject: Points Values and what you would like 10th to Bring
ccs wrote: That might be how it works in your little circle of the world. Or when you consider building an entirely new unit. Or just theorycrafting. Certainly when you're spewing BS online....
But I assure you there are plenty of people out there in the real world who aren't constantly swapping the weapons of already finished models.
That... doesn't mean it's good design, it means there are reasons wholly unrelated to the game that might dissuade someone from taking the in-game objectively better choice.
Like yeah, maybe there are real-world practical concerns that stop you from making the most of the broken rules, but the rules are still broken. I certainly don't want to crack open a new codex and find that the models I've assembled are irredeemably inferior to other options.
Rules are always broken. Points, power. Both are equally broken. Just what is broken varies. In points x is broken, in power y is broken.
Iif you don't want broken ditch both. Complaining about broken while using either is just silly and shows you don't know how they work.
'Points as a concept have issues so might as well have objectively better options cost the same as worse ones' is such a bad argument it borders on non sequitur.
vict0988 wrote: Grenade launcher is worth 0, easy. Let's say I'm wrong and it's worth 10 pts, why would that matter to the discussion? If it's worth 1 less point than a lasgun then that's possible to implement as well. I'm not pretending to know what Astra Militarum weapons are worth, it's just logic that the right value is non-zero for most of them. I already gave out values in the previous thread anyway and I think I gave some very reasonable numbers and I don't think anyone was able to point out the numbers were super out of wack.
Yeah, even if you can't get the cost perfect it's still a step in the right direction. Maybe 3pts is too much for a grenade launcher, but I still might conceivably take a 3pt grenade launcher over a 15pt plasma gun, whereas I'll never, ever take a grenade launcher if both it and the plasma gun are free. Hyperfocusing on whether a particular upgrade is worth whatever points costs you assign is missing the point.
More importantly, it's considerably easier to tweak points costs if they're inappropriate than it is to tweak the statlines to make them equivalent. Especially when the same weapon is used by multiple units that get differing utility out of them, since it's cleaner to set per-unit costs than to have per-unit statlines.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/03/29 13:36:58
Wyldhunt wrote: Upping points values to increase granularity is fine in theory, but it sort of assumes that GW is good enough at assigning points values for the extra granularity to matter. I'm pretty bad at painting harlequin diamonds. Regardless of whether you give me a Walmart brush or a teeny tiny high-end detail brush, my harlequins' "diamond" pattern isn't going to look very geometric in nature.
A few wishlist items from me:
* Get rid of some of the "layers" of rules. Juggling purity bonuses, subfaction bonuses, stratagems, unit rules, and psychic powers all at once is a bit draining.
* Fewer "kill better" rules; more rules to allow and reward maneuvering.
* I want subfaction/army style rules that make your army play *differently* instead of just making it more killy.
* Reduce the number of objectives at play in a given mission. A primary and 3 secondaries per player is 7 objectives to keep in mind at once. That's too many for my poor brain to juggle, and too many to build much of a narrative around.
* Kind of want a to-wound table closer to the old one. The current one is quirky in a bad way.
* Generally, I'd like the game to encourage play with fewer units at a time. The current 2,000 point games are too big for my taste. Give me something closer to 1,000 or 1,500.
* Kind of done with stratagems, to be honest. I'd be fine with them going away entirely and/or replacing them with something closer to Sigmar command abilities.
* I miss the variety of cool wargear options we used to have. Bring back customizable characters.
* Get rid of psychic tests, or at least deny the witch tests. Come up with an alternative mechanic for activating them that doesn't randomly fail, or just power down psychic abilities to be balanced going off every turn.
* Probably ditch relics. Just give us back cool wargear (with a 0-1 limit as necessary).
* Support for thematic/narrative-centric games. Crusade was great, but it could be improved.
* Get rid of the force org chart/detachments (seems like they are?).
* Some sort of cumulative penalty for taking difficult shots. Doesn't necessarily have to be a stacking modifier to the to-hit roll; could be reduced range if the target is too hard to hit, a penalty to the to-hit roll reflect the difficulty of placing a significant shot, a reduction in the number of shots you get, etc. Just something so that a devastator has a reason to hold still if he's shooting at something wearing camouflage.
^Pretty much what he said.
^Tag me in too... it is soul-crushing to teach kids a wargame like BT Alpha Strike or GrimDark Future... and then have them look at me with incredulous eyes when they see the awkward wonkiness of 40k. Its just not a well written ruleset and its pretty much "gotcha" once the basics are down.
DO:70S++G++M+B++I+Pw40k93/f#++D++++A++++/eWD-R++++T(D)DM+ Note: Records since 2010, lists kept current (W-D-L) Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 Crimson Tide 59-4-0 Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0 Primaris and Little Buddies 7-0-0
QM Templates here, HH army builder app for both v1 and v2 One Page 40k Ruleset for Game Beginners
Blue DP Crusade 126-11-6 
Biel-Tan Aspect Waves 2-0-2 
Looted Green Horde smash your face in 32-7-8 
Broadside/Shield Drone/Kroot blitz goodness 23-3-4 
Grey Hunters galore 17-5-5 
Khan Bikes Win 63-1-1 
Tanith with Pardus Armor 11-0-0 
Crimson Tide 59-4-0 
Green/Raven/Deathwing 18-0-0 
Jumping GK force with Inq. 4-0-0 
BTemplars w LRs 7-1-2 
IH Legion with Automata 8-0-0 
RG Legion w Adepticon medal 6-0-0