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 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Yes the US is a bigger market; however if GW were really smart they'd move to China. Even bigger market there AND cheaper labour AND reduced health and safety!

Bigger population, not a bigger share of GW's market. For whatever reason GW hasn't established any real success in China. The US, on the other hand, is more than double the UK share of GW's revenue and has the largest competitive play scene.

Gw did actually try and setup a US based site but apparently it failed due to issues with them not being about to source local key skilled workers for using their machines and maintaining them. They lost money having to ship machines back and forth from the USA and UK when things went wrong; or staff and such.

We're talking about game development not manufacturing. Recruiting for game design jobs in the US doesn't mean they have to move their factory operations over here.

GW's HQ is manufacture and design all under one roof. Everything is produced in Nottingham barring the cardboard and print content which is all overseas (because that's basically where most of the pulping and printing industry is). They also have a limited selection of plastics produced in china - mostly terrain and such. The bulk of their operation is nestled in Nottingham. Production, design, art, sculpting, game design, etc.... You don't just uproot all that and move it to the USA easily. Also its bad enough that GW compartmentalises teams as much as they do in Nottingham; having their setup spread out even more to other countries is just asking for even more internal troubles and problems; esp when many staff move between departments and such.

Dudeface wrote:
So we loop back around to a random campaign for them to move an office to the US despite there being no want or reason from the company to do so?

No, there is not no reason. Seriously, please try to keep things straight here. I believe that GW would be more successful by recruiting in their biggest market with their biggest competitive play scene, especially for a competitive play job. I did not put any number on that potential success, that was just xttz taking a comment out of context and misreading it.

The fact that "GW should recruit from their biggest market" somehow makes me equivalent in your eyes to a "MAGA hat" says a lot about the reasonableness of the discussion here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
GW's HQ is manufacture and design all under one roof.

But there's no need for it to be that way. The people working on tournament mission packs don't need to be in the same building as the machines making the plastic kits, the two jobs have nothing to do with each other. It's an especially obsolete business model when GW keeps having stock shortages because production can't keep up with demand. They clearly need to increase production capacity beyond their current single-site model.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
So we loop back around to a random campaign for them to move an office to the US despite there being no want or reason from the company to do so?

No, there is not no reason. Seriously, please try to keep things straight here. I believe that GW would be more successful by recruiting in their biggest market with their biggest competitive play scene, especially for a competitive play job. I did not put any number on that potential success, that was just xttz taking a comment out of context and misreading it.

The fact that "GW should recruit from their biggest market" somehow makes me equivalent in your eyes to a "MAGA hat" says a lot about the reasonableness of the discussion here.

But they're not, the thread is about an existing job post, centered in their head office. You've then filled it with talking about US game design salaries, how they should hire in the US, how the US is their biggest market and to a degree, how you think the US staff would do a better job, to the point of calling them a failure for not doing that.

You're ignoring the topic to bang on about the US.

Dudeface wrote:
But they're not, the thread is about an existing job post, centered in their head office. You've then filled it with talking about US game design salaries, how they should hire in the US, how the US is their biggest market and to a degree, how you think the US staff would do a better job, to the point of calling them a failure for not doing that.

You're ignoring the topic to bang on about the US.

Yes, because my whole point is that GW is doing it wrong with this job post. Pointing out that GW is in fact doing it in a way that I disagree with is stating the obvious.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
But they're not, the thread is about an existing job post, centered in their head office. You've then filled it with talking about US game design salaries, how they should hire in the US, how the US is their biggest market and to a degree, how you think the US staff would do a better job, to the point of calling them a failure for not doing that.

You're ignoring the topic to bang on about the US.

Yes, because my whole point is that GW is doing it wrong with this job post. Pointing out that GW is in fact doing it in a way that I disagree with is stating the obvious.

Then we're at a simple difference of both opinions and perspectives, to me I don't see trying to convince people they need to pay more purely to hire in a bigger country where they can't apply anything in practice with colleagues and instead are forced to share internal releases and document outside of hours with random playgroups in a store, as anything worth arguing for beyond a want for it to be "where I am".

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Overread wrote:
GW's HQ is manufacture and design all under one roof.

But there's no need for it to be that way. The people working on tournament mission packs don't need to be in the same building as the machines making the plastic kits, the two jobs have nothing to do with each other. It's an especially obsolete business model when GW keeps having stock shortages because production can't keep up with demand. They clearly need to increase production capacity beyond their current single-site model.

GW only recently built a new factory at Nottingham to deal with expansion of demand. The only reason its failed is because we had a global pandemic which did 2 things

1) It drained the GW stock worldwide for several months before only allowing GW to return to production at a limited rate due to work-safe practice during Covid times. As a result GW went for at least a year or more with a huge backlog to restore and reduced output.

2) During lockdown GW's market underwent a massive growth because lots of people were stuck at home with nothing to do. Even though there's a cost-of-living crisis right now (which just seems to be the new fancy term for recession or whatever); GW's market grew and has remained larger.

This was all over a very short span of time. GW are now likely in a riding it out phase where they don't want to nor should invest heavily into additional manufacture because this massive market growth is likely NOT sustained. Many dipped in and will dip out over time. So GW needs to run for several years to see where the market is settling before choosing to invest millions into more production facilities and infrastructure.

As I noted they have in the past tried to setup a US factory and it failed; so GW is likely to retain their skilled staff they've got at one site and simply expand their exploring and warehousing (which they have also done) and just ship more product ot the USA

Dudeface wrote:
Then we're at a simple difference of both opinions and perspectives, to me I don't see trying to convince people they need to pay more purely to hire in a bigger country where they can't apply anything in practice with colleagues and instead are forced to share internal releases and document outside of hours with random playgroups in a store, as anything worth arguing for beyond a want for it to be "where I am".

Bigger country and bigger market = bigger applicant pool = better odds of finding the best candidate. It's that simple.

And it has nothing to do with "where I am". I wouldn't take the job even if GW offered it to me at a US-appropriate salary, for a variety of reasons. My opinions here are entirely about what I think is best for GW and best for 40k.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


Are you sure about this? Remember, "top 40k tournament player" is already setting a very small pool of candidates. If you follow competitive play you'll notice the same handful of people consistently at the top of the tournament standings and it's mostly because very few people are willing to spend the time and money to travel to multiple events, buy armies to keep up with the meta, spend time on practice games, etc. You're talking about a max of 100 people worldwide who meet that requirement, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's more like 10 people. And then from that incredibly small group you need to find someone with the math skills AND the PR skills to do the actual job properly. GW is looking for a unicorn candidate here and the best way to get that is to have a remote position offered anywhere in the world and a salary that is competitive in the market where GW's largest customer base lives.

But "top 40k tournament player" isn't in the job description. "Winning record" doesn't mean winning entire tournaments, I don't think. I think it just means over a 50% win rate. Otherwise, as you say, the talent pool would be way too small. You wouldn't even put out a job advert, you'd just contact the 20 or so people who won big tournaments recently directly.

 Overread wrote:
As I noted they have in the past tried to setup a US factory and it failed; so GW is likely to retain their skilled staff they've got at one site and simply expand their exploring and warehousing (which they have also done) and just ship more product ot the USA

Again, we're talking about game design jobs not manufacturing. I agree that GW should expand their manufacturing in the UK, the only reason I mentioned the manufacturing expansion at all is that expanding to multiple UK sites (as they are apparently out of space at their current site) means giving up the "everyone under one roof" model anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

deano2099 wrote:
But "top 40k tournament player" isn't in the job description. "Winning record" doesn't mean winning entire tournaments, I don't think. I think it just means over a 50% win rate. Otherwise, as you say, the talent pool would be way too small. You wouldn't even put out a job advert, you'd just contact the 20 or so people who won big tournaments recently directly.

If a 51% win rate qualifies then that's an absurdly low standard by GW. You can get to a 50% win rate in tournaments purely by showing up with something resembling a meta list even if you don't really understand how the game works. Go 0-3 to start, go 3-0 on the beerhammer tables where nobody cares about winning. The person who would be qualified for this job may not have a bunch of first place finishes but they're at least consistently placing top 4/top 8 and in the conversation for winning the whole event.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


GW's financial numbers disagree. The US market is more than double the UK market in total revenue.

Isn't part of that because the prices are nearly twice as high?

And even if it's all true, you've established that to get staff equivalent to UK staff in the US, they'd have to spend 3x as much as no-one would get out of bed for less than six figures. So yeah, the market might be twice as big, but it costs you three times as much to operate there. Doesn't add up.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:


If a 51% win rate qualifies then that's an absurdly low standard by GW. You can get to a 50% win rate in tournaments purely by showing up with something resembling a meta list even if you don't really understand how the game works. Go 0-3 to start, go 3-0 on the beerhammer tables where nobody cares about winning. The person who would be qualified for this job may not have a bunch of first place finishes but they're at least consistently placing top 4/top 8 and in the conversation for winning the whole event.

Yup. You don't have to be brilliant at the game, just have a demonstratable understanding. The rest can be taught.

Again, you're not wrong that maybe what they should be doing is talking to all the top tournament players and seeing if any are interested. But that's not what they're looking for. No-one puts out an open job advert when they know that only 100 people max in the world are qualified to do it. Especially not when who those 100 people are is public knowledge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then we're at a simple difference of both opinions and perspectives, to me I don't see trying to convince people they need to pay more purely to hire in a bigger country where they can't apply anything in practice with colleagues and instead are forced to share internal releases and document outside of hours with random playgroups in a store, as anything worth arguing for beyond a want for it to be "where I am".

Bigger country and bigger market = bigger applicant pool = better odds of finding the best candidate. It's that simple.

But you don't need the best candidate. You just need someone good. The vast majority of companies would much rather hire someone that's 9/10 for the job at £40k than someone who is 10/10 but costs $100k+

While I absolutely do think GW should be paying more to get better game designers, there's no point in doubling their budget only to end up with someone at the exact same skill level, but in the US, when that same money could hire someone far more skilled and experienced in the UK.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

 Gert wrote:
The largest geographical market doesn't matter when the headquarters isn't there and never will be.
GW is a British company and its not going to offer US salaries when the economic circumstances in the country the company is based in are heavily divergent.
Just because basic wages are higher doesn't mean Americans are better than Brits.

GW is a global company with US operations and viewing themselves as a "UK company" is silly in the age of easy remote work. It's not 1980 anymore and it's time for GW to join the modern world.

And I never said that Americans are better because of higher wages, I said the US is GW's biggest market and has their biggest competitive scene. Ruling out that talent pool by offering a salary that is an absolute joke by non-UK standards is a serious mistake.

Typical American thinking money is the only thing that matters! /s

Few Western Europeans would accept the significant pay rise that comes with moving to America, because they'd have to deal with all the drawbacks.

If someone wants to live in Nottingham (which naturally would mainly be people who already live in the UK) then a reasonably competitive salary is based on that offered in similar roles in similar locations. Whether GW will offer that is a separate conversation but it's extremely naive to think that any global company would set compensation for such a role at a rate comparable with the highest paying country it has a presence in.

Dudeface wrote:

t the end of the day there is no need for global applicants, there's also nothing stopping global applicants applying and relocating. I kind of agree you are repeatedly pushing a "USA is obviously better, I'd be doing this job if it paid exactly what I want because I'm better than these scrubs" attitude. It might not be meant to come across that way, but it's how it's being received.

You forget how absurdly large the US is. Compared to the UK I would bet money they'd find a much better applicant in the states just because of population alone.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

t the end of the day there is no need for global applicants, there's also nothing stopping global applicants applying and relocating. I kind of agree you are repeatedly pushing a "USA is obviously better, I'd be doing this job if it paid exactly what I want because I'm better than these scrubs" attitude. It might not be meant to come across that way, but it's how it's being received.

You forget how absurdly large the US is. Compared to the UK I would bet money they'd find a much better applicant in the states just because of population alone.

Law of averages says yes probably, but even if they did, still need colleagues to work with, cost far more money, it's hard convincing someone to relocate 100+ miles in the UK, a problem exacerbates when that becomes a 3hr flight away or w/e. Moreover if you're going by sheer probability and population density, even without cost of the employee the US doesn't top that list.

Now if I thought the UK wasn't big on taxes I'd I'd consider moving. You don't get anything for free.

But if you don't work in the states you do get free healthcare either through the ACA or your state or both. Although everyone else is paying in for it so technically it's not free.

That said I'd be curious to know what I missing. I'd agree with anyone who criticisms the US tax system, it is definitely an industry *cough* racket. Still I do my own taxes and keep it simple.

I'm not underserved by a long shot and I'm just your average dude.

 Adeptekon wrote:
Now if I thought the UK wasn't big on taxes I'd I'd consider moving. You don't get anything for free.

But if you don't work in the states you do get free healthcare either through the ACA or your state or both. Although everyone else is paying in for it so technically it's not free.

That said I'd be curious to know what I missing. I'd agree with anyone who criticisms the US tax system, it is definitely an industry *cough* racket. Still I do my own taxes and keep it simple.

I'm not underserved by a long shot and I'm just your average dude.

If you're asking what the draw is in to the UK vs the US, that's both a political to degree and incredibly personally subjective topic not fit for in here tbh. Quick Google says taxation breaks even more or less, for the salaries discussed the tax is lower in the UK however and it's done for you. The US then adds the healthcare on top of the taxes.

Bigger pool of people means just that. More people. There are countries with even more people so should GW move there instead?

Silly joke I know dont answer it. What I want to say is GW was founded in the UK and established its operations HQ in the UK, even if they open a 2nd HQ in the US I would be inclined to say any capitalist company would prefer to hire their staff for their offices where they are cheaper and more convenient...

Why pay 100k In the US if I can pay 1k in another country?
Pool of people? LOLS the only difference is that they will take longer to find that 1k guy in another country taht will do the same as that 100k in the US but then again the recruiter companies on those countries will cost absolutely peanuts and in the end still a small percentage of this 100k.

GW wins.

in Game Design terms you can see that splitting the talent pool up rarely works well from the video games industry where different teams at different offices end up reinventing the wheel (and not infrequently making it hexagonal or even square) where they should be able to access the 'best' tech for cameras, animations, enemy intelligence etc

its also why a big company buying a sucessful games developer rarely works well (for long) as the big companies assets are spread out over the globe and don't talk/interact with each other enough. And where it is sucessful it's usually beause the individual design studios end up being run almost totally independantly

I could see a GW USA working, but not if it played in the 40K/AoS sand box (it's bad enough when codex design teams in the same building in Nottingham don't talk to one another, add in 1000s of miles, long airflights, and different time zones and it would end up much, much worse), now if the ran with a unique IP and game then it might work

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

t the end of the day there is no need for global applicants, there's also nothing stopping global applicants applying and relocating. I kind of agree you are repeatedly pushing a "USA is obviously better, I'd be doing this job if it paid exactly what I want because I'm better than these scrubs" attitude. It might not be meant to come across that way, but it's how it's being received.

You forget how absurdly large the US is. Compared to the UK I would bet money they'd find a much better applicant in the states just because of population alone.

Law of averages says yes probably, but even if they did, still need colleagues to work with, cost far more money, it's hard convincing someone to relocate 100+ miles in the UK, a problem exacerbates when that becomes a 3hr flight away or w/e. Moreover if you're going by sheer probability and population density, even without cost of the employee the US doesn't top that list.

Relocation is the fault of GW here. In the age if the internet, remote work is great, and would actually help GW make a better game in this case since the theoretical rules writer wouldn't have to interact with the old guard that keeps making gak decisions with their rules.

That's not what will happen though because GW wants a yesman.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Ah yes - Just tanked in months what they built up over decades, licensed properties all the way down and can't keep a game alive for two editions, and the platonic ideal of predatory business practices that would put some drug dealers to shame. Clearly vastly superior to bumbling old Father Brown GW

You can't have it both ways. If you're going to insist that GW should be credited as a success for their profit numbers despite their obvious competitive design failures then the same applies to WOTC, they're a success that blows away anything GW is doing no matter how predatory their business model is. They're making giant piles of money and they dominate both the RPG and CCG markets.

WotC are a subsidiary of the second largest toy company in the world. You don't get to where Hasbro is by not knowing how to milk a market.

And if you think GW players are whiny, don't get involved with Magic or Hasbro fandoms.

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Then we're at a simple difference of both opinions and perspectives, to me I don't see trying to convince people they need to pay more purely to hire in a bigger country where they can't apply anything in practice with colleagues and instead are forced to share internal releases and document outside of hours with random playgroups in a store, as anything worth arguing for beyond a want for it to be "where I am".

Bigger country and bigger market = bigger applicant pool = better odds of finding the best candidate. It's that simple.

And it has nothing to do with "where I am". I wouldn't take the job even if GW offered it to me at a US-appropriate salary, for a variety of reasons. My opinions here are entirely about what I think is best for GW and best for 40k.

You think uk has shortage of hobbyists who are happy to be yes-man for sales department for cheap wage?-)

Lol.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Relocation is the fault of GW here. In the age if the internet, remote work is great, and would actually help GW make a better game in this case since the theoretical rules writer wouldn't have to interact with the old guard that keeps making gak decisions with their rules.

That's not what will happen though because GW wants a yesman.

Remote work is only good if everyone is connected at every point throughout the work cycle. It's all well and good for people within the same timezone to be working on the same project but even then that isn't always a guarantee. I'm currently working with someone who works from home and the extra levels of communication make doing our collective work that little bit harder. They miss the impromptu catch-ups and check-ins with senior team members and lose out on instant access to support from people who know systems or procedures better.
It's great that the flexibility is there for them and I wouldn't take that away but when they've missed out on the coordination between the in-office team members who don't have time to go on a call or message every little change, it can make it difficult.
Now add in the time difference between the USA and UK. Even on the east coast, you're looking at a 5-hour difference where by the time the US-based employee starts work, the UK employees are already nearly finished for the day. If either side needs to check in or coordinate they have roughly a 3-4 hour window and that's it because nobody is going to communicate about work projects after they finish work. Even if the person is working from home, if they need to come into the office that's something that is relatively feasible for a UK resident if slightly inconvenient in some cases, something a US-based employee needs a passport and a plane journey to do.

Magic's fandom is actually quite lovely, in my experience as a Magic designer of 12 years. Obviously there's some complaining on the internet, but my personal interactions with fans at events have been almost universally positive.

Some of the suggestions in this thread are quite absurd. GW obviously shouldn't completely reorganize their business and open a US design studio to improve competitive play by N%.

Also, playtesting tabletop games remotely sucks. Playtesting Magic remotely during the pandemic was a huge pain, and I imagine that Warhammer would be much more difficult. Remote playtesting takes considerably more effort for inferior results. And ultimately, you want your playtesting conditions to resemble the actual conditions your customers will be operating under for the best fidelity.

The job description for this could easily be for what amounts to an entry-level game design position, to my eye. You do take a pay cut working on games, especially tabletop games, compared to some other industries that utilize similar skillsets. People doing what they love for somewhat less money aren't idiots.

I love when keyboard warriors turn into keyboard CEOs. GW are doing ok without the advice of experts on here.

One thing I think those suggesting that GW pay ludicrous six figure salary to an entry level job with no professional qualifications required, is that this is a design job is for a branch of the company that isn’t that big a deal to them.

As much as it irks some people, the tournament scene isn’t that important to gw as it doesn’t make them that much money. I’m sure if for a split second the thought the guy doing match play scenarios was going to increase profits by 20% they would pay them a lot. But it isn’t happening.

Watch the video posted earlier, it’s a real eye opener to the philosophy of gw. Thick end of the trumpet, that’s not die hard tournie players, or me a gnarled veteran who enjoys trying new painting techniques. It’s Timmy and his mum.

 Pariah Press wrote:
Magic's fandom is actually quite lovely, in my experience as a Magic designer of 12 years. Obviously there's some complaining on the internet, but my personal interactions with fans at events have been almost universally positive.

I mean, this is true of 40K players, too. Of course I'm talking about online discourse.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

t the end of the day there is no need for global applicants, there's also nothing stopping global applicants applying and relocating. I kind of agree you are repeatedly pushing a "USA is obviously better, I'd be doing this job if it paid exactly what I want because I'm better than these scrubs" attitude. It might not be meant to come across that way, but it's how it's being received.

You forget how absurdly large the US is. Compared to the UK I would bet money they'd find a much better applicant in the states just because of population alone.

Law of averages says yes probably, but even if they did, still need colleagues to work with, cost far more money, it's hard convincing someone to relocate 100+ miles in the UK, a problem exacerbates when that becomes a 3hr flight away or w/e. Moreover if you're going by sheer probability and population density, even without cost of the employee the US doesn't top that list.

Relocation is the fault of GW here. In the age if the internet, remote work is great, and would actually help GW make a better game in this case since the theoretical rules writer wouldn't have to interact with the old guard that keeps making gak decisions with their rules.

That's not what will happen though because GW wants a yesman.

So to clarify, if they work on their own at home without talking to the rest of the team they'll improve the game? That's your sales pitch? For them spending more money on someone to be totally isolated and unsupervised?

Dudeface wrote:

 Adeptekon wrote:
Now if I thought the UK wasn't big on taxes I'd I'd consider moving. You don't get anything for free.

But if you don't work in the states you do get free healthcare either through the ACA or your state or both. Although everyone else is paying in for it so technically it's not free.

That said I'd be curious to know what I missing. I'd agree with anyone who criticisms the US tax system, it is definitely an industry *cough* racket. Still I do my own taxes and keep it simple.

I'm not underserved by a long shot and I'm just your average dude.

If you're asking what the draw is in to the UK vs the US, that's both a political to degree and incredibly personally subjective topic not fit for in here tbh. Quick Google says taxation breaks even more or less, for the salaries discussed the tax is lower in the UK however and it's done for you. The US then adds the healthcare on top of the taxes.

I do appreciate those who have expressed concerns about my quality of life / living standards. Just sayin' I'm doin' ok y'all.

Pretty dire way of running a game making business. After 10 editions you finally advertise for someone to fix the broken mess of a game.

What's more sad is that we all keep buying the editions they spew out.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:
Pretty dire way of running a game making business. After 10 editions you finally advertise for someone to fix the broken mess of a game.

What's more sad is that we all keep buying the editions they spew out.

Do you honestly think they don't employ any game developers currently?

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

t the end of the day there is no need for global applicants, there's also nothing stopping global applicants applying and relocating. I kind of agree you are repeatedly pushing a "USA is obviously better, I'd be doing this job if it paid exactly what I want because I'm better than these scrubs" attitude. It might not be meant to come across that way, but it's how it's being received.

You forget how absurdly large the US is. Compared to the UK I would bet money they'd find a much better applicant in the states just because of population alone.

Law of averages says yes probably, but even if they did, still need colleagues to work with, cost far more money, it's hard convincing someone to relocate 100+ miles in the UK, a problem exacerbates when that becomes a 3hr flight away or w/e. Moreover if you're going by sheer probability and population density, even without cost of the employee the US doesn't top that list.

Relocation is the fault of GW here. In the age if the internet, remote work is great, and would actually help GW make a better game in this case since the theoretical rules writer wouldn't have to interact with the old guard that keeps making gak decisions with their rules.

That's not what will happen though because GW wants a yesman.

So to clarify, if they work on their own at home without talking to the rest of the team they'll improve the game? That's your sales pitch? For them spending more money on someone to be totally isolated and unsupervised?

Look at what supervision with Cruddace and his cronies did with 10th. That alone should be your sales pitch to get someone remote that doesn't want the game to suck.

American exceptionalism at its finest folks.