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Ummm... 4th edition Nids would be my vote, but that's maybe over decade ago I guess?

Honestly, I find it ridiculous that anyone who complains about GKs to be painted as bad, whiny, hater, etc. and just ignore any points made. That said, anecdotal evidence is rather rampant on both sides. Better debates come from evidence, math and comparisons.

Smitty0305 wrote:People who dont play GK, "they are overpowered".

People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex"

You keep trumpeting that like it means something. I've personally beaten GK with Nids, by substantial amounts even. Army composition isn't some magic win-all because you figured out you can min-max the most crazy powers into one list. I mean, yeah, sure, that helps, but if you keep hemorrhaging bad decisions, your army alone won't do you a lot of good.

My team played And They Shall Know Fear game one. Those guys brought crazy cheesy lists, played the special character synergy game, (and put their dreads on bases conspicuously just high enough to see over the tops of their razorbacks) but we got outplayed, pure and simple. They weren't just playing GK, they were playing GK and they were good.

Instead of sitting around sobbing all over your keyboard about how hard the game is, stop victimizing yourselves and figure out how to beat them.

And yes, I play GK. Feel free to discredit me at that point, but I also played DH. I also own and play a massive amount of IG, SM, and Nids. I've also played more than my fare share of games as Eldar. I've seen both sides of the fence for most armies.


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Surtur wrote:Honestly, I find it ridiculous that anyone who complains about GKs to be painted as bad, whiny, hater, etc. and just ignore any points made. That said, anecdotal evidence is rather rampant on both sides. Better debates come from evidence, math and comparisons.

What evidence would you have people provide? As far as math and comparisons, those only get you so far. It took at least 2 pages before we could finally talk people out of comparing Tac Marines vs Strikes in a vacuum.

Illumini wrote:
He wrote the deamons fantasy book too?

And that one is definitely the "most overpowered book GW has put out in a decade" no contest.

Eidolon wrote:
However, what really bothers me is how much people care to whine about these things. When I was younger, and gaming was basically all I did hobby wise, I used to wonder why less people were involved. Now that I am older, and 40k has become something I play maybe 2 games of a month, I dont. I have moved out into the world, my social network has gone from only gamers to gamers being a very small minority, and looking back its things like that thread that make me realize how dysfunctional the community really is. And I dont wonder why more people arent involved anymore, because its full of people who dont have anything better to do than sit around and complain about how army x beats army y.

Welcome to the internets, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents

Complaining about how people don't have anything better to do than complaining seems no better.

You have the time in your life to go out and spend hours and hours playing with plastic toy soldiers. Why not just enjoy that? Remember when ig and the 'leafblower' were the big thing, and everyone threw a gak fit about how imba ig were? I remember this forum blowing up about how so many people brought them to adepticon, and how darkwynn quit playing that build because people spread their butthurt to him about it. Now though, nobody cares about ig, and its gk that are broken. Give it another year, and we will have some other army that will be bitched about endlessly. Why? Its just the cycle, I enjoy it, new armies provide new challenges and require different tactics to beat. So the game is an ever changing problem, and not a simple equation.

Notice that, aside from one 'Ard Boyz where a guy who happened to write a lot on BoLS admittedly got perfect deployment and 1st turn, they didn't dominate events the way SW and GK's have, nor have they generally comprised the same % of attendees generally that those two armies have since their 5E releases.

Its this nerd rage from people who spend hundreds of dollars to go play 40k in some other part of the country, and then come back and complain cause they lost to what they feel is a broken army. This attitude is what keeps people away from gaming. You have the time and money to go play with plastic toys for a weekend in some far away city, what are you complaining about?

the fact that the game is unbalanced enough to make such an event unfun? Also, keep in mind such gamers are the tiniest minority of the 40k community, most people never get beyond a small gaming group of friends.

You'll note that i have a better record (albeit from fewer matches but actually against generally stronger opponents) with Dark Eldar than with Grey Knights. People do whine a bit about my GK being broken in some aspects sometimes, but I notice there's also some whining about flickerfields creeping in now I'm playing DE.

Dark Eldar are quite easy to play because their units are specialised to one role and there are only a few types of units in the list.

A typical venom spam list will field perhaps a Haemonculus HQ, Venoms, Warriors, Trueborn, Ravagers, maybe Beasts (my army isn't typical venom spam, it has wyches, raiders and Vect but no beasts). That's 6 different units and basically two different ranged weapon types (poisoned 4+ and S8 AP2). There's not really anything to have to remember to use other than weapons, troop units are plentiful and strategic decision making straightforward with a healthy margin for error built in thanks to 12" + fire or 24" flat out vehicle movement,

My Draigo list has Draigo, Librarian, 2 x 5 paladins, 2 stormravens, 2 dreadnoughts and either a Vindicare or 5 interceptors. That's 6 - just as many - different sorts of units -- and in fact more diverse in nature too -- but with psycannon, multi-melta, plasma cannon and psybolt-autocannon AT rather than just universal S8 AP2. So who shoots what and in what order needs more thought. Further the troops are also the main assault arm of the army and their triple-role of scorers, shooters and assaulters means deciding where they are placed how and when they fire and assault all needs much more thought. Couple that with the necessity of keeping to cover against most armies, the need to prioritise psychic powers round to round, etc etc and it's just tougher to play than Dark Eldar.

This is a completely different thing to its resiliancy -- it's certainly an army where everything is either hard or very hard to destroy, unlike the DE where everything is easy or quite easy to destroy.

Now I'd rather not use anecdotal evidence myself, but in this case if GK really are broken then I shouldn't be winning nearly as many games with my Dark Eldar as I do with my GK. In fact my record is better, Ihave been playing the army less often and my opponents have been of higher quality (as I said, you could easily discount 20 or so of my GK wins as being against poorer opponents). I was mainly replying to Smitty in this case who made a claim that my own experience would seem to disprove, ie that GK players win because of codex rather than ability.

And as an aside, I put my win-loss totals up partly just to keep track, but mainly to irritate the folk I know who play me and visit Dakka.

Vaktathi wrote:

Its this nerd rage from people who spend hundreds of dollars to go play 40k in some other part of the country, and then come back and complain cause they lost to what they feel is a broken army. This attitude is what keeps people away from gaming. You have the time and money to go play with plastic toys for a weekend in some far away city, what are you complaining about?

the fact that the game is unbalanced enough to make such an event unfun? Also, keep in mind such gamers are the tiniest minority of the 40k community, most people never get beyond a small gaming group of friends.

I lost every time to Grey Knights at Adepticon, and I still had fun, though I suppose I did see at least a team there who looked quite bummed out when they saw their second match up for the day had GK in it.

Next year, I'm torn between taking an older army, and cheesing it out to the max so I can contribute some variety, or just saying feth it and taking the new hotness anyway. We were actually kicking around the idea of Eldar, even if they don't get an update in the meantime.


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Blood and Slaughter wrote:
Now I'd rather not use anecdotal evidence myself, but in this case if GK really are broken then I shouldn't be winning nearly as many games with my Dark Eldar as I do with my GK. In fact my record is better, Ihave been playing the army less often and my opponents have been of higher quality (as I said, you could easily discount 20 or so of my GK wins as being against poorer opponents). I was mainly replying to Smitty in this case who made a claim that my own experience would seem to disprove, ie that GK players win because of codex rather than ability.

Hey, we have an Ork player that I lost to with Purifier spam. When you're a good player and you have decent rolling, opponent's army doesn't matter much.

Smitty0305 wrote:People who dont play GK, "they are overpowered".

People who play GK "Mad and defending themselves because they thought they were winning on skill, but are now realizing they win because of the codex"

Yeah, no.

I own sisters, orks, IG and space wolves. I have won all but one games against GK that I have played with Sisters, Orks and SW and do not think they are overpowered. Good try but saying something over and over doesn't necessarily make it true.

Nemesor wrote:
7 percent are

lol, thats not the army book... pretre put me down as an option because I was the one who made him include one...

Tomb King wrote:

Nemesor wrote:
7 percent are

lol, thats not the army book... pretre put me down as an option because I was the one who made him include one...

Worth every vote!

daedalus wrote:

My team played And They Shall Know Fear game one. Those guys brought crazy cheesy lists, played the special character synergy game, (and put their dreads on bases conspicuously just high enough to see over the tops of their razorbacks) but we got outplayed, pure and simple. They weren't just playing GK, they were playing GK and they were good.

I'm pretty sure I know the dreads you're talking about.... and the bases are taller... yes... but they don't really get a coversave because of that... and if you look at the forgeworld model arms for ACs... they are just as high. So yes it was conspicuously high... but i think thats more of a disadvantage than an advantage.... IN FACT.... we compared the models at the conflict GT this year and when you put the regular dread on the tallest part of the regular base it is exactly the same height as the Forge world arms...

BUT more to your point. These guys ARE good and play extremely well... Andrew/Nick I know personally and I play Nick all the time

Hoo boy. This should get interesting.

frgsinwntr wrote:
I'm pretty sure I know the dreads you're talking about.... and the bases are taller... yes... but they don't really get a coversave because of that... and if you look at the forgeworld model arms for ACs... they are just as high. So yes it was conspicuously high... but i think thats more of a disadvantage than an advantage.... IN FACT.... we compared the models at the conflict GT this year and when you put the regular dread on the tallest part of the regular base it is exactly the same height as the Forge world arms...

BUT more to your point. These guys ARE good and play extremely well... Andrew/Nick I know personally and I play Nick all the time

Hey, I'm not sour. They seemed like good people. My point was supposed to be that we got outplayed because of the players, not the boltgun metal.

daedalus wrote:

frgsinwntr wrote:
I'm pretty sure I know the dreads you're talking about.... and the bases are taller... yes... but they don't really get a coversave because of that... and if you look at the forgeworld model arms for ACs... they are just as high. So yes it was conspicuously high... but i think thats more of a disadvantage than an advantage.... IN FACT.... we compared the models at the conflict GT this year and when you put the regular dread on the tallest part of the regular base it is exactly the same height as the Forge world arms...

BUT more to your point. These guys ARE good and play extremely well... Andrew/Nick I know personally and I play Nick all the time

Hey, I'm not sour. They seemed like good people. My point was supposed to be that we got outplayed because of the players, not the boltgun metal.

Lol i'm not raging... don't put any emotion to my post above... i really have none : ) I'm just a bit gruff on the internets

I'm just adding some facts :p

daedalus wrote:Hey, I'm not sour. They seemed like good people. My point was supposed to be that we got outplayed because of the players, not the boltgun metal.

+1000! I think Reecius definitely proved that it is about the player and not the army.

pretre wrote:

daedalus wrote:Hey, I'm not sour. They seemed like good people. My point was supposed to be that we got outplayed because of the players, not the boltgun metal.

+1000! I think Reecius definitely proved that it is about the player and not the army.

The player does make the difference... agreed. But how can we objectively tell if an army is OP or not?

Clearly the same player must play 100 games. 50 with GKs and 50 with another army considered balanced... Each game must be vs the same player with the same army...

then we need to record the results and compare the results of each game....

Any volunteers to play 100 games this weekend?

Not it!

I've played Will's Templars with my GK about 12 times and gone something like 6 wins, 2 draws, 4 losses. Against his Templars with my Dark Eldar I have 3 wins and 1 draw. Not really enough games for any sensible conclusion to be drawn but it's a start...

To be fair he's faced Coteaz- 6 Razorback- 6 Dreadnought spam (not mine) twice with his list and been obliterated both times so it's quite possible that his list has a specific problem with a specific GK build

frgsinwntr wrote:

pretre wrote:

daedalus wrote:Hey, I'm not sour. They seemed like good people. My point was supposed to be that we got outplayed because of the players, not the boltgun metal.

+1000! I think Reecius definitely proved that it is about the player and not the army.

The player does make the difference... agreed. But how can we objectively tell if an army is OP or not?

Clearly the same player must play 100 games. 50 with GKs and 50 with another army considered balanced... Each game must be vs the same player with the same army...

then we need to record the results and compare the results of each game....

Any volunteers to play 100 games this weekend?

Don't forget you then need to run 100 more games with a rubbish player using the GK's vs a good player with one of those balanced codicies as well!

That's why Daemons of Chaos were so outright broken, because the list did play itself and even morons could curbstomp much better players who used a non-daemon/dark elf/skaven army. There's nothing you could do in 7th ed's rules when you faced a 18+ power dice flickering fire barrage, backed up by 2x6 flamers + dark insanity bloodthirster besides lose with grace.

Yes GK's have unbalanced the meta more than any other book in 5th edition, but they're not quite to the levels of pure @$$hatery that 7th edition Daemons were!

daedalus wrote:My team played And They Shall Know Fear game one. Those guys brought crazy cheesy lists, played the special character synergy game, (and put their dreads on bases conspicuously just high enough to see over the tops of their razorbacks)

Interesting. I assume you wouldn't put a Dread behind a Rhino unless you wished to claim cover saves. Were they high enough to have the rifles pointing straight on the targets and still be over the Rhinos/Razors? Pics?

I'm trying to remember if they were claiming a cover save on those. I think they were, to be honest, though it was against my dread, which was also up on a hill partially covered, so there was quite a bit of LoS weirdness going on. I was also insanely tired at the time, which didn't help the gaming much.

I don't have a picture during the game, unfortunately, but here's one of their army on its display base.



Again, I don't want to start a pissing match or try to drag anyone's name through the mud. It's was a great game.

Aren't they all on Dakka? Should be able to just ask them.

Lets look at the 2010 results....

http://whiskey40k.blogspot.ca/2010/08/final-results-all-players-warhammer-40k.html

Wow Space wolfs won huge! Wolfs came in second this year and won in 2011 as well.....

Must mean that wolfs were the worst army in the last 10 years...

Does anyone remember 3th edition Iron warriors? I do...

Iron warriors, nidzilla, and mechdar have been forgotten because the community has the collective memory of a goldfish.

Its also nice to go after the flavor of the month army, because it makes your wins epic and your losses trivial. So if you build gk up to be some kind of win button that only a really talented player can routinely beat, then who cares when you lose, its gk. If you win though, its awesome, because you beat the most powerful army ever.

Far as dreads on extra tall scenic bases, thats..questionable at best. Especially when none of the other models are on extra tall bases.

daedalus wrote:

Instead of sitting around sobbing all over your keyboard about how hard the game is, stop victimizing yourselves and figure out how to beat them.

This. I think squads of death cults/crusaders with a lolnade inquisitor are a stupid strong unit for the points. Probably the single best combat unit in the game. So uh, rather than throw a fit about it, call it boring, and try to berate people for running it, I play against it as often as I can. In another year, its going to be a different army the internet sheds tears of hate for, and then youll have the 'us vs them'. Where we try and sort out who is guilty of the sin of running the flavor of the month army, and who isnt. Should we forgive those who played the army before it was powerful? What about how many GTs have been won by it. Ive seen this cycle go around since the dawn of time.

I havent tried to claim grey knights werent really, really, strong. I have been trying to make the point of 'why care'? Because at the end of the day you have the time and money to play warhammer, which is better than most humans have ever had it.

Eidolon wrote:

Its also nice to go after the flavor of the month army

uh ummm that would be flavor of the year now I suppose.

@Daedelus

If you were on the Grey Knight team in game one then you were playing Spag and I. We only shot over the vehicles at your dread during the game because it was on a hill. We did take cover on it the two times you shot at it but that was because of terrain, where you were shooting from, and the vehicles combined. It wasn't just the vehicles that gave cover.

The other dread was just sitting around shooting the entire game in front of all the vehicles

It was a hell of a game either way and a great way to start the day. Didn't know that was you buddy. Face to a name and all

Yeah, I'm gonna have to jump in and say that I am not a fan of those Dread Bases. Where is 'And They Shall Know Fear'?

Someone light the Hulk signal.

Edit: Wow, Ninja'd by the man himself.

Congrats, btw Hulk! Any word on the bases?

frgsinwntr pretty much covered it. Andrew specially cast the gun arms as well as the bases. Note how low on the body the guns actually are. They sit below the head on the dreadnought. The weapons are on the same spot as a standard dread, on the provided bases high points, with forgeworld guns.

We only shot over the rhinos in our games when the unit was higher than table level (i.e. on a hill, was a vendetta, etc.) over the course of the tournament. If anything the damn bases hurt since I couldn't be armor saves while standing on hill like everyone else

Hulksmash wrote:@Daedelus

If you were on the Grey Knight team in game one then you were playing Spag and I. We only shot over the vehicles at your dread during the game because it was on a hill. We did take cover on it the two times you shot at it but that was because of terrain, where you were shooting from, and the vehicles combined. It wasn't just the vehicles that gave cover.

The other dread was just sitting around shooting the entire game in front of all the vehicles

It was a hell of a game either way and a great way to start the day. Didn't know that was you buddy. Face to a name and all

Yup, that was my dread up on the hill. I figured the cover was because of terrain, but looking back on it, I couldn't quite remember. A little too fried from lack of sleep and all.

Great to meet you too. Wish I would have realized it was you at the time.

Eidolon wrote:Iron warriors, nidzilla, and mechdar have been forgotten because the community has the collective memory of a goldfish.

Its also nice to go after the flavor of the month army, because it makes your wins epic and your losses trivial. So if you build gk up to be some kind of win button that only a really talented player can routinely beat, then who cares when you lose, its gk. If you win though, its awesome, because you beat the most powerful army ever.

I'm pretty confident fifth edition GKs could take third edition chaos.