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Hey all,

Has anyone run the numbers on the optimum loadout for a dakka telemon? Have a tournament coming up that's allowing forge world beta rules, and I'm interested in running my telemon along with a guard battery and custodes force.

Looking at the different profiles and costs of the Illastus Accelerator & Arachus las-storm, it seems that despite the volume of shots you pump out with the las storm, the accelerator does more damage against MEQ, T8 vehicles & pretty much everything with a decent enough armor save. I would assume that hurricane bolters on jetbikes are more useful than a telemon against hordes anyhow.

What are your experiences? Are you going with the quality of fire when it comes to the beta rules?

Xiboleth wrote:
Hey all,

Has anyone run the numbers on the optimum loadout for a dakka telemon? Have a tournament coming up that's allowing forge world beta rules, and I'm interested in running my telemon along with a guard battery and custodes force.

Looking at the different profiles and costs of the Illastus Accelerator & Arachus las-storm, it seems that despite the volume of shots you pump out with the las storm, the accelerator does more damage against MEQ, T8 vehicles & pretty much everything with a decent enough armor save. I would assume that hurricane bolters on jetbikes are more useful than a telemon against hordes anyhow.

What are your experiences? Are you going with the quality of fire when it comes to the beta rules?

So I ran a bunch of them through a calculator previously (no Horde or MeQ calcs though because Hurricane Bolters work fine for that in my opinion) and the TLDR I got was this:

If you're fighting a standard vehicle (T7, 3+, no invuln) the Accelerator will do you noticeably better.

If you're fighting an Imperial Knight or Relic Leviathan, they are about equal (and even more equal if the Knight has access to the +1 invuln Stratagem).

If you're fighting a heavy target with a decent invulnerable save (Mortarion, Tesseract Vault, Magnus) the Las-Storm is better.

So pick based on the type of target you want your Telemon to bring down faster and harder. (Note: I assumed a re-roll 1's aura was around for all calculations).

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

I agree in principle, but I think people have a tendency to over-worry about shooting against Jet Bikes. You can keep your Bikes under a Magnifica in that time. There's not a lot of super heavy gunlines that can seriously threaten T6 4W 2+/4++ with -1 to Hit in 1-2 rounds of shooting.

Of course, I generally advocate taking about 10 bikes minimum if you're fully optimizing so you have a lot of bike power for them to chew through.

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

I'm not saying regular custodes guard are better than bikes. No one in their right mind would advocate a 52 pt model over a 90 pt model.

But since I'm taking a battalion, I'd rather have the CP and make decent use of the units I need to take.

At 1k, you can't take 3 squads of bikes (rule of two), and that's the points I was playing at. So you'd have to run them in a patrol detachment, and you still have a squad of walking custodes at that point.

Skhmt wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

I'm not saying regular custodes guard are better than bikes. No one in their right mind would advocate a 52 pt model over a 90 pt model.

But since I'm taking a battalion, I'd rather have the CP and make decent use of the units I need to take.

At 1k, you can't take 3 squads of bikes (rule of two), and that's the points I was playing at. So you'd have to run them in a patrol detachment, and you still have a squad of walking custodes at that point.

You're O.K. Skhmt. I came off more nitpicky than I meant too primarily because I'm on cold medicine and half delirious. Notice how the Telemon post needed like 6 edits.

London GT invitational was won by Geoff Robinson’s Custodes. The GT was won by another Custodes.

 Primark G wrote:
London GT invitational was won by Geoff Robinson’s Custodes. The GT was won by another Custodes.

And the only Custodes on the field were bikes and a Vexilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

I agree in principle, but I think people have a tendency to over-worry about shooting against Jet Bikes. You can keep your Bikes under a Magnifica in that time. There's not a lot of super heavy gunlines that can seriously threaten T6 4W 2+/4++ with -1 to Hit in 1-2 rounds of shooting.

Of course, I generally advocate taking about 10 bikes minimum if you're fully optimizing so you have a lot of bike power for them to chew through.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar. All can chew through 10 bikes in 2-3 turns through a -1 to hit.
You can also see it if you watch the London GT games where top players are deepstriking their bikes against gunlines.

Yeah my outrider detachment has never survived past turn 2 against my mates Leman Russ spam. That's including the Vexilla. I doubt my tank heavy Eldar would have trouble removing them that fast either.

Its not that they're ineffective for their cost or anything, the game just promotes that playstyle of castling around a huge battery of guns. Deepstriking a big unit is the best we've got out of a bad lot of options.

How many Russes does he have? Because, assuming hitting on a 4+ (Tank Commander with Magnifica or regular Russ without), the expected damage per Battlecannon shot is...

(1/2)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2)=1/3, or 12 shots to kill a single Biker. Not that scary.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many Russes does he have? Because, assuming hitting on a 4+ (Tank Commander with Magnifica or regular Russ without), the expected damage per Battlecannon shot is...

(1/2)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2)=1/3, or 12 shots to kill a single Biker. Not that scary.

Thank you for that one. I'll add that I believe Manticores should only average about 1.5 wounds per Manticore as well with a 45% chance of 0 wounds.

Astra Militarum gunline should not do huge amounts of damage to the Bikes before you can respond. I think the same is true of Eldar outside of buffed Dark Reapers.

Tau and Dark Eldar I'm still trying to understand on a deep enough level to give more than a surface comment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ordana wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
London GT invitational was won by Geoff Robinson’s Custodes. The GT was won by another Custodes.

And the only Custodes on the field were bikes and a Vexilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

I agree in principle, but I think people have a tendency to over-worry about shooting against Jet Bikes. You can keep your Bikes under a Magnifica in that time. There's not a lot of super heavy gunlines that can seriously threaten T6 4W 2+/4++ with -1 to Hit in 1-2 rounds of shooting.

Of course, I generally advocate taking about 10 bikes minimum if you're fully optimizing so you have a lot of bike power for them to chew through.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar. All can chew through 10 bikes in 2-3 turns through a -1 to hit.
You can also see it if you watch the London GT games where top players are deepstriking their bikes against gunlines.

Just quoting this so you know the above was also responding to you.

He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

Spartacus wrote:
He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

It's still not adding up. The Relic of Lost Cadia only lasts for one turn. If you have a Magnifica, the 2 normal Russes are hitting on 5's, the Commanders on 4's and Pask on 3's. Each tank should still only be shooting 8-9 times I think with Pound Them to Dust. Overlapping Fields of Fire is only going to effect one unit per round too.

I can't run this many variables through a calculator right now, but consulting JNA's math above with what you're describing here and I think should only lose about 4-5 bikes per enemy turn assuming you had no LoS to hide behind and force those tanks to move to shoot you. Sure it hurts, but you should be able to respond pretty effectively still. Even moreso with terrain forcing movement.

Last game against Guard was Pask in a Plasma Russ with MM sponsons. 2 normal Russ tank commanders, 2 Basilisk, 3 Lascannon infantry squads, 2 auto cannon teams, 2 Valkyries and 3 Plasma gun Special Weapon squads.

That will kill 6 bikes in 1 turn. A bad set of rolls and your losing a lot more. (and ofc on a the flip side you can roll good and lose a lot less)

Spartacus wrote:
He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

Assuming 1 Pask, 3 Commanders, and 2 Russes, all with Battlecannons and three Heavy Bolters, and that a Commander fires first to get Overlapping Fields of Fire, and the Relic of Lost Cadia is in play...

First Commander fires an average of 8 shots with the Battlecannon and 9 shots with Heavy Bolters, hitting on 4s, wounding on 3s/5s, rerolling 1s to hit and wound.
8 shots are 14/3 hits, which is 98/27 wounds, 49/27 failed saves, and 98/27 damage. Heavy Bolters do 21/4 hits, 49/24 wounds, and 49/72 failed saves/damage.
Total damage from the FIRST Commander? 3.63+.68=4.31 damage, or one biker dead. But, Overlapping Fields of Fire comes on now.

Each subsequent regular Russ does the same damage, so that's three more bikes dead. Assuming you have one giant squad, so OFoF has maximum effect, the second two Commanders each do...
8 shots are 56/9 hits, which is 392/81 wounds and 196/81 failed saves, for 392/81 damage. Heavy Bolters do 7 hits, 49/18 wounds, and 49/54 failed saves/damage.
Total damage from each subsequent Commander? 4.84+.91=5.75 damage, or one and a half bikers dead, about.

Pask then does his deal, for more damage probably.
8 shots are 70/9 hits, 490/81 wounds, 245/81 failed saves, and 490/81 damage. Heavy Bolters do 35/4 hits, 245/72 wounds, and 245/216 failed saves and damage.
Total damage from Pask? 6.05+1.13=7.18 damage, or nearly two dead bikers.

Total damage, assuming you have one giant squad that never gets cover and is never overkilled?
31.61 wounds dealt, or 8 dead Bikers.

Total cost?
1,198 points and 2 CP.

Total damage dealt, in points?
720 points, or slightly less, due to overkill and whatnot.

Now, this is a LOT of assumptions. Such as no cover, everyone has LoS, no one needed to move...

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

It's still not adding up. The Relic of Lost Cadia only lasts for one turn. If you have a Magnifica, the 2 normal Russes are hitting on 5's, the Commanders on 4's and Pask on 3's. Each tank should still only be shooting 8-9 times I think with Pound Them to Dust. Overlapping Fields of Fire is only going to effect one unit per round too.

I can't run this many variables through a calculator right now, but consulting JNA's math above with what you're describing here and I think should only lose about 4-5 bikes per enemy turn assuming you had no LoS to hide behind and force those tanks to move to shoot you. Sure it hurts, but you should be able to respond pretty effectively still. Even moreso with terrain forcing movement.

5 Bikes a turn is about right. An outrider detachment of bikes is 3x3 = 9 bikes. Dead in 2 turns like I said. Adds up fine.

The bikes are too tall to hide from LOS fully in a Ruin, they stick up into the 2nd floor. Getting cover helps of course, but not if it delays you hitting the enemy lines. Even when you do get there theres still 100 Guardsmen plus all the other goodies to screen before you can start tying up the tanks. This is all from repeated experience. I've given up trying to beat it.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

It's still not adding up. The Relic of Lost Cadia only lasts for one turn. If you have a Magnifica, the 2 normal Russes are hitting on 5's, the Commanders on 4's and Pask on 3's. Each tank should still only be shooting 8-9 times I think with Pound Them to Dust. Overlapping Fields of Fire is only going to effect one unit per round too.

I can't run this many variables through a calculator right now, but consulting JNA's math above with what you're describing here and I think should only lose about 4-5 bikes per enemy turn assuming you had no LoS to hide behind and force those tanks to move to shoot you. Sure it hurts, but you should be able to respond pretty effectively still. Even moreso with terrain forcing movement.

5 Bikes a turn is about right. An outrider detachment of bikes is 3x3 = 9 bikes. Dead in 2 turns like I said. Adds up fine.

The bikes are too tall to hide from LOS fully in a Ruin, they stick up into the 2nd floor. Getting cover helps of course, but not if it delays you hitting the enemy lines. Even when you do get there theres still 100 Guardsmen plus all the other goodies to screen before you can start tying up the tanks. This is all from repeated experience. I've given up trying to beat it.

You need more LoS blocking terrain. If the tanks move, their heavy bolters hit worse, and if they move FAR, they get half the shots with the main cannon.

And 100 Guardsmen plus the tanks listed are 1,600 points. I know Guard is cheap, but how many other goodies can you fit in 400 points?

I mean, I could list his army, take photos of our boards and break down our games step by step, but seems a bit over the top when I just trying to share my experience quickly.

How many IG tank lines have you guys crushed with Custodes?

Spartacus wrote:
I mean, I could list his army, take photos of our boards and break down our games step by step, but seems a bit over the top when I just trying to share my experience quickly.

How many IG tank lines have you guys crushed with Custodes?

Army lists actually might help a lot. Battle reports, while cool, are not so much needed.

Spartacus wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Spartacus wrote:
He has 6 Russes, but 1 is Pask (2+ BS) and 3x commanders (3+ BS). Once a unit is wounded from H bolters he uses the Cadian focus fire stratagem to add a further +1 to hit for the battlecannons. Also uses the Cadian Relic to give all the tanks reroll 1s to wound (and hit if not already). Most/all of the tanks are ordered to reroll the random number of shots so they're usually getting 10+ battlecannon shots each.

Not much survives that for long.

It's still not adding up. The Relic of Lost Cadia only lasts for one turn. If you have a Magnifica, the 2 normal Russes are hitting on 5's, the Commanders on 4's and Pask on 3's. Each tank should still only be shooting 8-9 times I think with Pound Them to Dust. Overlapping Fields of Fire is only going to effect one unit per round too.

I can't run this many variables through a calculator right now, but consulting JNA's math above with what you're describing here and I think should only lose about 4-5 bikes per enemy turn assuming you had no LoS to hide behind and force those tanks to move to shoot you. Sure it hurts, but you should be able to respond pretty effectively still. Even moreso with terrain forcing movement.

5 Bikes a turn is about right. An outrider detachment of bikes is 3x3 = 9 bikes. Dead in 2 turns like I said. Adds up fine.

The bikes are too tall to hide from LOS fully in a Ruin, they stick up into the 2nd floor. Getting cover helps of course, but not if it delays you hitting the enemy lines. Even when you do get there theres still 100 Guardsmen plus all the other goodies to screen before you can start tying up the tanks. This is all from repeated experience. I've given up trying to beat it.

It's not adding up because that's only happening in crazy ideal scenarios for the tanks. Ruins on standard tournament tables I see are 3" tall per floor and usually have at least one jutting arch almost as tall as an Imperial Knight. I hide 3 bikes from them out of line of sight all the time. Standard mountain terrain is also tall enough.

Regarding chaff, you have Fly. You can move and charge over them.

You also should be presenting harder choices for target priority in your lists, right? An Outrider with Magnifica is a bit less than 1,100 points. You've got 900 more for more bikes or some ranged anti-tank, the latter being what a lot of players seem to add. For our purposes though, if you just did 900 more points of bikes you get an extra like 10 bikes.

So you have 20 bikes at the start in a full list like that. I don't believe Russes can fall back and shoot innately so once you make contact with them it should be over I think.

Not only can Russes not fall back and shoot innately, I don't think they have anything that lets them do it at all.

 Ordana wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
London GT invitational was won by Geoff Robinson’s Custodes. The GT was won by another Custodes.

And the only Custodes on the field were bikes and a Vexilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

I agree in principle, but I think people have a tendency to over-worry about shooting against Jet Bikes. You can keep your Bikes under a Magnifica in that time. There's not a lot of super heavy gunlines that can seriously threaten T6 4W 2+/4++ with -1 to Hit in 1-2 rounds of shooting.

Of course, I generally advocate taking about 10 bikes minimum if you're fully optimizing so you have a lot of bike power for them to chew through.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar. All can chew through 10 bikes in 2-3 turns through a -1 to hit.
You can also see it if you watch the London GT games where top players are deepstriking their bikes against gunlines.

Geoff uses Guardians.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Not only can Russes not fall back and shoot innately, I don't think they have anything that lets them do it at all.

Perfect! That should deal it once you get to him then I think.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Primark G wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

 Primark G wrote:
London GT invitational was won by Geoff Robinson’s Custodes. The GT was won by another Custodes.

And the only Custodes on the field were bikes and a Vexilla.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Audustum wrote:

 Ordana wrote:

Audustum wrote:

Skhmt wrote:
I used CP on one of them. But even without making the charge, it's better to have them on my have to weather one turn of shooting than 2-3.

Even with Command Re-roll your odds are low. You barely crack 50% with a re-roll aura AND stratagem access.

You'd lose CP, but Bikes would get there about as fast, be tougher and do more damage (costs more though so if you don't got the points then fair enough).

Anyway, cue PrimarchG

If you deploy on the table and don't go first you face 2 shooting phases before you can charge (with bikes, more with foot dudes)
If you deepstrike you face 0 to 1 turns of shooting.

Yes the charge is unreliable but it might still the better option when your facing a very shooting army that would otherwise blow you off the table.

I agree in principle, but I think people have a tendency to over-worry about shooting against Jet Bikes. You can keep your Bikes under a Magnifica in that time. There's not a lot of super heavy gunlines that can seriously threaten T6 4W 2+/4++ with -1 to Hit in 1-2 rounds of shooting.

Of course, I generally advocate taking about 10 bikes minimum if you're fully optimizing so you have a lot of bike power for them to chew through.

Guard, Tau, Eldar, Dark Eldar. All can chew through 10 bikes in 2-3 turns through a -1 to hit.
You can also see it if you watch the London GT games where top players are deepstriking their bikes against gunlines.

Geoff uses Guardians.

This time he didn't. 16 Bikes, a Culexus and Astra Militarum this time I believe.

Interesting, he beat Alex Harrison which is very impressive.

It wasn't much of a fight. Geoff utilized cover to protect his bikes (and died immediately when he didn't) and the Tau player refused to move, despite not having objectives to his favor.

He played it well. I beat him 20-0 the game before, which meant he learned from his mistakes. The mission and deployment meant I couldn't push forwards and the bike captain just wouldn't die. Gratz to Geoff for a great game. If the captain died a turn earlier I think I would have had him although my Maelstrom sucked donkey balls.
Custodes in that terrain are a lot stronger than usual. Being able to hide them which even with normal BLOS terrain is hard is massive. Tau suck though right?

I wouldn't say the board favors Custodes to be honest.

There is cover in the center of the board but not enough to fully hide a larger unit of bikes because they take up so much space.
After that you spend a turn out in the open as you move to engage. Especially on diagonal deployments which the Finals was played in.
Thats why we saw a lot of players deepstrike their bikes against gunlines. Something I believe Geoff mentioned he changed between the GT game he lost and the invitational Finals.

That is not the say the terrain was bad for a tournament, it was functional LoS denying terrain but there was, imo, to much open space on the left/right side of the boards.
Here is a picture of those who didn't watch the streams. The Brown boxes on the left/right were woods to provide a cover save but don't inhibit LoS.


In the end I think a lot of it comes down to Custodes being a very binary army. A few good or bad saves have a big swing effect. Like Geoff's captain surviving for a turn in the middle of the Tau army which indeed seemed pivotal.

 JNAProductions wrote:
How many Russes does he have? Because, assuming hitting on a 4+ (Tank Commander with Magnifica or regular Russ without), the expected damage per Battlecannon shot is...

(1/2)*(2/3)*(1/2)*(2)=1/3, or 12 shots to kill a single Biker. Not that scary.

Remember to reroll ones and hull/sponson weapons.

Russ spam is effective against bike spam, provided there is no where to hide enough bikes. it can take 2 russes to kill a biker, but there will be around 12, they will sit in the very back corner, and force 2 turns of shooting, killing roughly 12 or more bikes before you are in charge range.

What are Adeptus Custodes top tier units in your opinion? I have played them once in a 2 versus 2 and lost and this was before the codex. I was wondering what is best now. Thanks.

BillyN831 wrote:
What are Adeptus Custodes top tier units in your opinion? I have played them once in a 2 versus 2 and lost and this was before the codex. I was wondering what is best now. Thanks.

The codex contains 3 units.
Bike captains, bikes and Vexilla.
The rest is cool if you want to play a pure Custodes army but none of them are good enough for high level competitive play.

(in before Primark disagrees despite all evidence to the contrary)