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Many thanks Geifer & Boss Salvage!

Teams are officially capped off at 20 models IIRC, so 19 of the blighters and a single Plague Marine with some special kit should make for a real bother to deal with.

Hmmm... thinking this will be a pass for me, perhaps with the exception of the terrain. Definitely not something I will be picking up at release - I think I’ll just stick with Shadow War.

The Eldar team is really disappointing.

Finecast Rangers, Dire Avengers or 2 flavours of one of the worst units in the game which have models older than most people who will play the game.

Not feeling the urge to play half the races for Kill Team, in fact was reading the 7th ed KT rules again and I think that is a better game imho.

CWE may be short on model options, but there is a fair range of kit when you look at the kit the DA and Storm Guardian sergeants can take.
Also, if the shuriken rules carry over from 40k, there's the AP-mod thing.

I am fairly sure one of the previous articles made mention of continued support and additional boxes and teams coming out later. There is a good chance some of these kits will at least get upgrade sprues from Forgeworld if nothing else, and its got to be advantageous for them to update the Finecast models as well. That goes double if the community takes to the Organized Play stuff that they mentioned before as well.

While I agree that more will be coming for sure, I disagree that Forge World should get involved. I'd rather not be presented with the option to purchase their sixteen quid upgrade packs.

I'd be fine with FW expansions, but I would much rather see GW control the game and pump out regular expansions.

Funny, Kill Team has more options than Shadow War Armageddon and more support already with more coming and people still think a half-baked game with 20 year old ruleset is better than a more modern ruleset with alternate activation.

While you might be disappointed by the initial choices, we know more are on the way along with organized pla. SWA was a ploy to sell terrain which will never be expanded or further supported--it will always suck and never get better.

We know Rogue Trader is coming and might make Kill Team more Mordheim-like--some characters/elites on top of squads. Look at Necromunda being run by FW/SG, it gets consistent love so imagine what W's next top tier game will get.

Maybe in the end I'll be happy some of you won't be playing Kill Team...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to business...

Is the Dire Avenger Exarch a DA squad choice in 8th or a separate HQ choice?

Exarchs are squad choices like a sergeant.

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Funny, Kill Team has more options than Shadow War Armageddon and more support already with more coming and people still think a half-baked game with 20 year old ruleset is better than a more modern ruleset with alternate activation.

While you might be disappointed by the initial choices, we know more are on the way along with organized pla. SWA was a ploy to sell terrain which will never be expanded or further supported--it will always suck and never get better.

We know Rogue Trader is coming and might make Kill Team more Mordheim-like--some characters/elites on top of squads. Look at Necromunda being run by FW/SG, it gets consistent love so imagine what W's next top tier game will get.

Maybe in the end I'll be happy some of you won't be playing Kill Team...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back to business...

Is the Dire Avenger Exarch a DA squad choice in 8th or a separate HQ choice?

Maybe if they had spent more than five secs on the unit choices we might have been impressed. The new Necromunda rules was badly done - with mistakes and contradictions showing how rushed it was - this looks the same.

I love the idea but I am not going to say everything is wonderful for no reason and ignore stupid choices just to make the thread look more positive.

I am really looking forward to the new box set and hope that it will mean that the game improves its selection of choices and factions but I am not going to pretend it looks more than a very basic reskin of Shadowwars with a couple of Necromunda mechanics.

So, it seems like we are gleaning the overall shape of things.

-boyz vs toyz: the cost of model bodies seems to be fairly in line with base 40k. The eldar has a couple models at a 1-2 point discount, Harlequins are at a 1 point discount, necrons are identical to the codex except for Immortals at a 1 point discount, etc.

The cost of weaponry, however, is WAY down. especially in the special weapon category, where you see guns at 15-20 point discounts. Missile launcher down from 25 to 5. Plasma Pistol down 5 to 1.

This seems to be because naturally, any skirmish game like this where models have a lot of universal blanket protections (-1s to hit thrown around everywhere but a 6 always hits, every model takes the same injury roll for a 50-50 chance to not die, etc) low quality high volume bodies has a natural advantage.

We do see that Space Marines seem to have an across-the-board near-immunity to the penalties caused by Flesh Wounds. And they shall know no fear means they have a re-rollable 58% chance (18% chance of double failure) to pass, and they ignore the -1 to hit straight up.

The weapon discounts are explained by the fact that hitting anything in Kill Team is going to be really damn hard, and overkill is going to be big. Any weapon attacking from over half range, -1 to hit. A model obscured by any amount of terrain, another -1 to hit. I'd expect those Ork shoota boyz to be SURPRISINGLY expensive, and flamers to be surprisingly ubiquitous despite the fact that they can only kill one model at a time. there is a reason you can get a guardian with a flamer for nearly the same cost as a frickin bright lance.

That said I'm actually expecting marines to be pretty powerful. You're going to have roughly 20 guard vs 7 marines, and in a normal firefight around 12" range you'll see those marines hitting on 4s and the guardsmen on 5s (assuming you'll probably usually be in cover). we know guard have some kind of orders in Kill Team but we don't know what and it'll most likely be just 1-2 models that get them.

the marines lose roughly .75 models a turn versus roughly 1.8 guardsmen dead, but then a further 1.8 guardsmen either hit on 6s, or don't act at all the following turn (58% chance to not act at all), while the marines suffer no BS penalties and have a 17% chance to not act at all. In pure "what gets dead" the guard do win out, causing 9.5 points of damage vs 7.2, but in terms of "what doesn't shoot the next turn" the marines cause 11.4 points of damage vs exactly 11.4 from the guard.

and that's if the marines don't choose to leverage their melee stat advantage at all. Which is totally a thing you can do if you're having a slugfest at 12" range. at "stand back and shoot at 24" range, the whole guard kill team has a 20% chance of killing one marine. melee is going to be a reality in kill team.

Unless they've changed things, Guardians are usually recruited from Eldar who have previously been on the Path of the Warrior but have since moved on. That implies to me that the Guardians are the veteran troops, and if anything have more experience in combat than most Aspect Warriors (although their skills may be a little rusty). With Dire Avengers being described as the most tactically-rounded Aspect, the choices make sense to me.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Unless they've changed things, Guardians are usually recruited from Eldar who have previously been on the Path of the Warrior but have since moved on. That implies to me that the Guardians are the veteran troops, and if anything have more experience in combat than most Aspect Warriors (although their skills may be a little rusty). With Dire Avengers being described as the most tactically-rounded Aspect, the choices make sense to me.

Guardians are basically militias, like the High Elf Spearmen of Fantays. Yeah, some of them did had a time in some warrior path, but Eldar jump fron path to path regularly, many guardians never had military training.

Um, Hello, are we Forgetting that GW is also trying to sell you books too?

The first KT will have a few factions thrown in the BRB. That's pretty cool actually...

Then a few months down, theres KT 2.0. theres Chapter Approved articles. Splash Releases. Rules IN THE BOX kits.

It also lets GW sell 5 man boxes of stuff and really gouge the prices. Dont worry, options are coming. You just might not like them either.

 Galas wrote:

Guardians are basically militias, like the High Elf Spearmen of Fantays. Yeah, some of them did had a time in some warrior path, but Eldar jump fron path to path regularly, many guardians never had military training.

Like I said, the background I remember stated that Guardians had all previously been warriors. Perhaps that bit's been dropped at some point.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Unless they've changed things, Guardians are usually recruited from Eldar who have previously been on the Path of the Warrior but have since moved on. That implies to me that the Guardians are the veteran troops, and if anything have more experience in combat than most Aspect Warriors (although their skills may be a little rusty). With Dire Avengers being described as the most tactically-rounded Aspect, the choices make sense to me.

Aspect Warriors are expects who are prefect for Killy Team - its what they are - they train to kill and fight until they leave the Path - or become an Exarch You send the Aspect most suited to the task - that's the Eldar way

So stealth send Scorpions, Precision Firepower send Dark Reapers, Speed - Swooping Hawks, etc etc

Rangers are the Eldar who go out beyond the Craftworld and do covert stuff - so def include

Guardians are called out to serve in an emergency - they are a militia. They can recall some of their training (if they have served before) but it can be very damaging experience - they should not be fighting long term unless something has gone very wrong.

Now having the Guardians as the exceptional unit in a supplement would have made much more sense.

But we have what we have and are freee to discuss it? Even if some people feel that only positive posts are allowed

We do see that Space Marines seem to have an across-the-board near-immunity to the penalties caused by Flesh Wounds

I thought it was just ignore one penalty - do they not stack?

I do hope we see an expansion for Eldar in the future and get access to aspect warriors. I would of loved to do something along the lines of 1 Swooping Hawk, 1 Warp Spider, 1 Scorpion etc.

The Aspect Warriors seem to me to be too restricted for something like this. They work well in their own area, but they really come together when they're working together. Whereas in a Kill Team, the troops would need to be more flexible. And then you've got things like Ulthwé's Black Guardians, which seem to be a more permanent force, and all those guys who drive the tanks - they must be kept on-call, because presumably Aspect Warriors don't always all walk everywhere?

When did Scorpions become the "stealthy" ones, anyway?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
The Aspect Warriors seem to me to be too restricted for something like this. They work well in their own area, but they really come together when they're working together. Whereas in a Kill Team, the troops would need to be more flexible. And then you've got things like Ulthwé's Black Guardians, which seem to be a more permanent force, and all those guys who drive the tanks - they must be kept on-call, because presumably Aspect Warriors don't always all walk everywhere?

When did Scorpions become the "stealthy" ones, anyway?

Since forever?

Then you do Black Guardians as the Special unit in the supplement as the "exceptional force" that shows it is different.

What is kill team supposed to be? If its a group of highly specialised soldiers -well then you have Aspect Warriors! Its like the Marine Faction being represented by Scouts and Aspirants rather than Scouts and Marines.

Be very surprised if the fluff pages are not just copy pasted from Shadow war.

I would say there is a good chance that Kill Team will be monetized like Shadespire and and Necromunda. They are already showing parts of that business model with the boxed teams. Those come with terrain with extra rules in the boxes, similar to how Shadespire teams come with cards that can be used by other teams.

Honestly, I think this is all for the good, as it implies a lot of continued support.

 AndrewGPaul wrote:

When did Scorpions become the "stealthy" ones, anyway?

Since they were first given stats.

QimRas wrote:
I am fairly sure one of the previous articles made mention of continued support and additional boxes and teams coming out later. There is a good chance some of these kits will at least get upgrade sprues from Forgeworld if nothing else, and its got to be advantageous for them to update the Finecast models as well. That goes double if the community takes to the Organized Play stuff that they mentioned before as well.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they use KT as an excuse to start updating some of these old ass infantry kits one by one. Hey, that's actually a really good idea!

The number of options Necrons got doubled in KT compared to SW:A so I can't really complain along these lines.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
Unless they've changed things, Guardians are usually recruited from Eldar who have previously been on the Path of the Warrior but have since moved on. That implies to me that the Guardians are the veteran troops, and if anything have more experience in combat than most Aspect Warriors (although their skills may be a little rusty). With Dire Avengers being described as the most tactically-rounded Aspect, the choices make sense to me.

Aspect Warriors are expects who are prefect for Killy Team - its what they are - they train to kill and fight until they leave the Path - or become an Exarch You send the Aspect most suited to the task - that's the Eldar way

So stealth send Scorpions, Precision Firepower send Dark Reapers, Speed - Swooping Hawks, etc etc

Rangers are the Eldar who go out beyond the Craftworld and do covert stuff - so def include

Guardians are called out to serve in an emergency - they are a militia. They can recall some of their training (if they have served before) but it can be very damaging experience - they should not be fighting long term unless something has gone very wrong.

Now having the Guardians as the exceptional unit in a supplement would have made much more sense.

But we have what we have and are freee to discuss it? Even if some people feel that only positive posts are allowed

We do see that Space Marines seem to have an across-the-board near-immunity to the penalties caused by Flesh Wounds

I thought it was just ignore one penalty - do they not stack?

Striking scorpions are literally the easiest thing in the world to proxy for kill team if you want them.

Take the point cost from 40k.

Take the statline from 40k.

That's it. You're done.

I don't see any problem with including Guardians in Kill Team. Even if they are only typically deployed in emergencies (Ulthwe aside), 40k is a setting built on desperation. It is entirely conceivable that a Craftworld is being forced to rely on its Guardians for a mission it would prefer to deploy Aspect warriors on.

Guardians are also a multipart plastic kit. They still look pretty good, despite their age (the bare heads are the worst part). Including Guardians as an option is logical.

On the other hand, Striking Scorpions absolutely should be an option. I can understand leaving out the other resin Aspects, because they are not specifically intended for insertion ops, and are not plastic. But Scorpions are infiltrators, and they should've qualified for the "makes sense" exception like Rangers and Kommandos. DE Mandrakes are in this boat too.

With the current model range, Striking Scorpions are the obvious missing Aspect for Craftworlders.

If we get more plastic Aspects, then they should all be added.

 Haighus wrote:
I don't see any problem with including Guardians in Kill Team. Even if they are only typically deployed in emergencies (Ulthwe aside), 40k is a setting built on desperation. It is entirely conceivable that a Craftworld is being forced to rely on its Guardians for a mission it would prefer to deploy Aspect warriors on.

Guardians are also a multipart plastic kit. They still look pretty good, despite their age (the bare heads are the worst part). Including Guardians as an option is logical.

On the other hand, Striking Scorpions absolutely should be an option. I can understand leaving out the other resin Aspects, because they are not specifically intended for insertion ops, and are not plastic. But Scorpions are infiltrators, and they should've qualified for the "makes sense" exception like Rangers and Kommandos. DE Mandrakes are in this boat too.

With the current model range, Striking Scorpions are the obvious missing Aspect for Craftworlders.

If we get more plastic Aspects, then they should all be added.

From a Narrative angle I can certainly think of reasons Guardians would be present in a kill team game. First off... No one said that both sides of the battle are operators. One side might be sentries or the personnel of the facility being attacked. They could also be part of a larger army that the Kill Team is operating against. In these situations, guardians make sense.

Also, Termagaunts and Hormagaunts are not exactly elite operators either. But they are on the list.

And yeah, GW would be missing a HUGE opportunity if they don't do a couple updated Aspect teams.

Well, that video review posted earlier gave a look at the units available to all the current kill teams. Death Guard only get two units, Plague Marines and Pox Walkers. I was kind of hoping they'd get access to cultists as well. Grey Knights only get one unit, Grey Knights. Hopefully as they expand the game, we see new units added to these factions. Having some limited access to Terminator armor, like in Shadow War would be cool.

the_scotsman wrote:

Striking scorpions are literally the easiest thing in the world to proxy for kill team if you want them.

Take the point cost from 40k.

Take the statline from 40k.

That's it. You're done.

Yet this was still somehow too difficult for GW to do.