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2021/08/05 12:01:13
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
So - Thought experiment for you guys. Interested to get your thoughts.
How best to support a warrior brick?
What do we have available to us?
Chronomancer
Technomancer
Reanimators
Ghost Arks
Overlords/Lords
Rez Orbs
Silent King Reroll bubbles.
Royal Warden fallback
When do we hit the point where you are throwing too many points at supporting the unit? What do you think is the 'right' amount? In what combination?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/05 12:24:40
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
2021/08/05 12:12:59
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
When do we hit the point where you are throwing too many points at supporting the unit? What do you think is the 'right' amount? In what combination?
Marshall's list above has shown that one can be successful without Warriors as Immortals have better stats.
My hypothesis is that its not worth atm to bet on Warriors.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
iGuy91 wrote: So - Thought experiment for you guys. Interested to get your thoughts.
How best to support a warrior brick?
What do we have available to us?
Chronomancer
Technomancer
Reanimators
Ghost Arks
Overlords/Lords
Rez Orbs
Silent King Reroll bubbles.
Royal Warden fallback
When do we hit the point where you are throwing too many points at supporting the unit? What do you think is the 'right' amount? In what combination?
Depends on how many warriors and the dynasty in my opinion.
Number of warriors determines how much of your list is relying on them, which in turn determines both how much a buff will get used and how much you can afford. I would include very different things for 1x20 then I would for2x20 or 4x20 or more. A guy in another group wanted to run 120 warriors, at that point is a technomancer or ghost ark bringing back a couple warriors worth it at all? I'd say no.
Dynasty also matters. Mephrit for example like to fall back and shoot, so Silent King (to manipulate and double dip for fall back protocol) or Royal Wardens are good picks. Whereas Novokh gets a bit more mileage from a Chronomancer from the reroll charge then Mephrit would.
After that, you should weigh how the item will contribute to the list as a whole. An 80 point reanimator is a great buff to warriors, but doesn't do anything else of note. Where as a Ghost Ark provides a lot more than just returning models (excellent screen, respectable shooting, mobility, transport). The reanimator may still be the better choice for other reasons though (cost, easier to hide, buff works at time of roll rather than relying on unit surviving to get revivals), you just have to weigh the cost and benefits.
With all that, here's the short answer for each one
Chronomancer - Solid pick, better for Novokh or any army with assault elements that could use the inv. Some say no brainer...consider currently how much of the meta is relying on massed AP0-1.
Technomancer - Wouldn't take unless he's also supporting something else (like +1 to hit for Doomstalkers) or variety of units he can rean/heal (lychguard, vehicles).
Reanimators - If you can hide them they have merit. If you know that will be hard, don't bother.
Ghost Arks - Solid pick but mostly for screening.
Overlords/Lords - Rez orb caddys mostly, the extra move and hit buff still worth having.
Rez Orbs - At least one Orb of Eternity if you have 40+ warriors.
Silent King - Not as great in the current Admech dominated meta but he brings a lot to the table. Not mandatory, but ibrings a lot to the table.
Royal Warden - Great in Mephrit, decent with other dynasty. Not a must for me
I don't think you will ever have a list with all the things, but most lists with a lot of warriors will have at least one noble with a res orb and one chronomancer.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2021/08/06 04:56:05
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
I am not as big a fan of any 5++ because I simply fail more than 75% of the roles. (Its the same problem I have with the Nightbringer, out of the last 4 games, I have made the 2+ role for Thunderbolt only twice total).
I will say that a Chronomancer is pretty good all around and that charge reroll paid off more than the 5++. Plus the 10 point gun upgrade is pretty nice, (I seem to hit that all the time and then point to the Nightbringer and say, "See, that's how its done!").
As for just the Warrior support portion of your question.......a Chronomancer, Technomancer and Ghost Ark are all good at supporting them defensively while an Overlord/Lord/Silent King, Royal Warden support their offense.
I have to have a lumbering "War of the Worlds" bot on my battlefield so I use my 3 Reanimators as Doomstalkers, (need to find two more Heavy Death Rays to use as the guns).
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I had a scratch that needed itching so I modified my Annihilation Barge to be a CCB. That triggered me to modify the look of my unbuilt Tomb Blades.....
Long story short - Has anyone had fun running a CCB with 5, 6 or more Tomb Blades and if so, what build did you use?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/06 05:01:37
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
2021/08/06 12:07:05
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Mathematically, TBs are an amazing way to get mobile Immortal Gauss on the board at a comparable cost.
In reality, I find them to be an immediate target, a bit too fragile even with the 3+, and too expensive with the 3+/5++. For an expensive bit of kit which competes with a scarab slot, I just haven't found a good use for them other than providing a target for my opponent's anti infantry.
Always Confident. Occasionally Correct.
2021/08/06 23:38:54
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Having more threats to be targeted is needed because too much is going at my Nighhtbringer and Skorpekh Destroyers. This and my Doomstalkers should pull off some shots while the 20 and 20 warrior mobs push up.
I agree that it sucks to have to pump up a unit cost wise in order to make it worth while.......my 4 up warriors have been better saving than my opponents 3 up save. :-)
70% of all statistics are made up on the spot by 64% of the people that produce false statistics 54% of the time that they produce them.
2021/08/08 10:59:10
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
BillyN831 wrote: What is good necrons for crusade? Thankee thankee.
Ehhh if you're playing crusade and you're not trying to min-max the progression system then just take what you like/what fits the theme of the Necrons you have. Crusade (as GW intends) is a means of facilitating a narrative and telling a story, tactics and list-building don't really matter as much if you and your gaming group are playing with that intent as well.
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
2021/08/10 11:58:07
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
wuestenfux wrote: How about a pure DESTROYER cult or CANOPTEK cult army besides the troop units?
Any ideas or results with those kind of armies?
Well destroyer cult is easy. Destroyers and Skorpekhs have pretty high damage outputs, so it should be a pretty killy force, and they have a couple of HQ units to go with it.
Canoptek I'm not sure about. I guess take crypteks and start buffing units? You'll want Doomstalkers for damage output and scarabs will be your bread and butter.
Scarabs should really be troops instead of fast attack, imo. They are supposed to be the most ubiquitous part of a necron force, even more so than warriors.
What I have
~4100
~1660
Westwood lives in death!
Peace through power!
A longbeard when it comes to Necrons and WHFB. Grumble Grumble
2021/08/10 19:51:17
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
Unfortunately they’re fortifications but do have deep strike and at only 100 points per sentry with the gauss exterminator you’re getting:
BS 3+ T7 W8 SV3+
48" Heavy 2 S8 AP-3 D D6 -Each time an attack is made with this weapon against an AIRCRAFT unit, add 2 to that attack's hit roll.
D6 damage still sucks but for only 100 points? I’m definitely intrigued.
Edit: Figured I’d add the other weapon options for comparison.
Focused Death Ray 36" Heavy 1 S12 AP-4 D D3+3 -
Heat Cannon (25pts) 36" Heavy D6 S8 AP-4 D D6 -Each time an attack made with this weapon targets a unit within half range, that attack has a Damage characteristic of D6+2
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 19:59:29
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
2021/08/10 20:29:05
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Mixzremixzd wrote: Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
No, but I doubt this is the edition to start using them.
Sentry Pylon is 12,5 pts per T7 SV3+ vs DDA is 11,4 pts per T6 QS Sv 3+/5++ wound, tonnes better.
50 pts per gauss Sentry shot vs 49 pts per DDA shot. Heavy D6 has its ups and downs, but when you add the 2 flayer arrays it's not even remotely fair. Deep strike is not that strong unless you are using the heat cannon.
Heat cannon is the only thing that has any chance of being remotely viable unless you are playing on planet bowling ball, if you want to test it out take 6, all with heat cannons. The trouble is that the pricing on the weapons is pretty much perfect, getting within 18" is dangerous for a model this expensive with no invulnerable save. Consider playing it in a glass cannon build so your opponent cannot take out all the teeth of your list by busting down your Sentry Pylons. The base cost is about 25 too high compared to a DDA.
2021/08/10 21:04:20
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
wuestenfux wrote: How about a pure DESTROYER cult or CANOPTEK cult army besides the troop units?
Any ideas or results with those kind of armies?
There's a destroyer cult list that has had some success in the western USA.I think it has a bad time into admech though.
He uses one each skopekh and lokust lord, 2x5 skopekh destoyers, 2x5 ophidian destroyers, 2x 5 Lokhust Destroyers, 2x 3 Lokhust H Destroyers w/ Enmitic and 1x 3 Lokhust H Destroyers w/ Gauss Destructor. Later build was single spearhead using +1 charge and 6" move custom dynasty, another build split the detachments, novokh for choppy, mephrit for shooty. I talked to him a bit about it at my last event, his plan was basically win primary by blowing people off objectives. Forgot to ask him about his secondaries.
I have been considering a canoptek build personally (mostly wraiths and scarabs, some support from doomstalker and spyders potentially). Haven't seen anyone build a pure one but the units all seem to make their way into lists, so could be something there.
snoogums: "Just because something is not relavant doesn't mean it goes away completely."
Iorek: "Snoogums, you're right. Your arguments are irrelevant, and they sure as heck aren't going away."
2021/08/11 17:52:46
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Mixzremixzd wrote: Has anyone had any experience or at least can mathhammer some numbers for the FW Sentry Pylons?
No, but I doubt this is the edition to start using them.
Sentry Pylon is 12,5 pts per T7 SV3+ vs DDA is 11,4 pts per T6 QS Sv 3+/5++ wound, tonnes better.
50 pts per gauss Sentry shot vs 49 pts per DDA shot. Heavy D6 has its ups and downs, but when you add the 2 flayer arrays it's not even remotely fair. Deep strike is not that strong unless you are using the heat cannon.
Heat cannon is the only thing that has any chance of being remotely viable unless you are playing on planet bowling ball, if you want to test it out take 6, all with heat cannons. The trouble is that the pricing on the weapons is pretty much perfect, getting within 18" is dangerous for a model this expensive with no invulnerable save. Consider playing it in a glass cannon build so your opponent cannot take out all the teeth of your list by busting down your Sentry Pylons. The base cost is about 25 too high compared to a DDA.
Thanks for the breakdown. Ugh I really don't wanna touch the DDA kit ever again so I'm trying to find any silver lining to avoid it.
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
2021/08/11 19:04:25
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
If you're trying to avoid the Doomsday Ark you're probably better off looking at Heavy Destroyers, they've still got a pretty serious fragility problem but their shooting is pretty good for the points and if you keep them in 1-model squads you can hide them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 19:04:41
2021/08/13 09:24:43
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
I am concerned whether you have enough anti-vehicle, I'd think that'd be an extra large concern fighting Iron Hands. Gauss cannon on your CCB is definitely better than tesla cannon since you have the 5 points anyway, although I can understand if WYSIWIG is an issue.
I think Voltaic Staff is a much better relic than Voidreaper, I can see it might be better against IH Dreadnoughts but I don't build lists for just one opponent.
I am concerned whether you have enough anti-vehicle, I'd think that'd be an extra large concern fighting Iron Hands. Gauss cannon on your CCB is definitely better than tesla cannon since you have the 5 points anyway, although I can understand if WYSIWIG is an issue.
I think Voltaic Staff is a much better relic than Voidreaper, I can see it might be better against IH Dreadnoughts but I don't build lists for just one opponent.
Thanks for the comments. Indeed, gauss cannon brings the list to 2000 pts on the dot.
My concern with the Skorpekhs is that they have no inv. save while in my list I have six cc units with 4++ save. CCB is more geared towards cc and so I prefer the void reaper as it does not allow rolls of feel no pain.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 05:22:12
2021/08/16 06:13:28
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
2021/08/16 06:38:19
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
2021/08/16 07:08:40
Subject: Re:Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
What you're saying is that Ophydians have a higher skill to use the reap-blades than the Skorpekhs.
Makes not much sense if you ask me.
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
It makes sense that a unit is better with a weapon than another unit. An overlord hits on 2+ with a staff of light, a technomancer only hits on 3+. A CCB hits on 2+ with a gauss cannon, lokhust destroyers hit on 3+.
An Overlord is better at using ALL weapons in melee than a Technomancer, an Ophydian Destroyer is better at using one specific weapon than Skorpekh Destroyers. To what degree are you certain that GW didn't just forget to copy-paste the ability?
2021/08/16 07:22:26
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
p5freak wrote: Why should it be FAQed ? Its an ability from the unit. Skorpekh and Ophydian are different units, with different abilities. Just because they share the same weapon doesnt mean they can do the same with it.
Because the ability has the name of the weapon and it makes no sense why Ophydians would be better at using the weapon.
I always thought it was because a single Ophydian has 2 Reap-blades on the model as opposed to the 1 carried by a Skorpekh. Made sense to me cause the special rule on the Ophydian datasheet has Reap-blades pluralised.
The Qarnakh Dynasty - Starting Again From scratch...Once again
kirotheavenger wrote: People like straws, and they're not willing to give any up even as the camel begins to buckle.
2021/08/16 16:53:24
Subject: Necron New 9th Edition Codex Tactica: All Hail The Silent King
Tactically, Wraiths and Lychguard could work together as follows:
After Relentlessly Expansionist, one Wraith unit and one Lychguard unit are side by side.
In round 1, both units move forward.
Suppose Wraiths are able to charge. Lychguard advances being ready for the next turn.
In round 2, Lychguard unit moves forward and Wraith unit falls back.
Then both, Lychguard unit should be able to charge the unit left behind by the Wraith unit. Wraith unit benefits from Slinging Strike and should be able to charge another unit.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/16 16:55:19
Former moderator 40kOnline
Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!
Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."
Automatically Appended Next Post: On another note, I had a scratch that needed itching so I modified my Annihilation Barge to be a CCB. That triggered me to modify the look of my unbuilt Tomb Blades.....
Long story short - Has anyone had fun running a CCB with 5, 6 or more Tomb Blades and if so, what build did you use?
I have been running 3x5 gauss bikes in a mephrit detachment. With a CCB that has the void reaper and +1 attack and strength warlord trait. It’s not the best but at str 8 he at least has a chance at getting a few wounds into something tough, with voidreaper so a chance to actually kill something. Also a technomancer with cloak.
The volume of fire is pretty decent IMO. The extra 1.5” range on the double tap made a difference.
5 bikes is 20 shots hitting on 2’s, wounding pretty much everything I shoot at on 5’s at -3 d1. Using the strat to make 6’s to hit auto wound seems like decent value. If there arnt vehicles I’m worried about (probably rare) then they do well against elite infantry as well, with lots of units getting t5 these days.
I went with shields and scopes, I wouldn’t argue with anyone who preferred the 5++ though, metta pick I guess.
Technomancer with cloak. If someone is split firing your squads down he can revive bikes in both units and heal wounds on your ccb perhaps. Bikes are the most valuable revive unless you’re rolling hot on d3 warriors, which I’m not taking.
Barge lord is fairly durable but Im aware he’d get punked by lots of stuff. I need the anti tank though, he’s maneuverable enough I should be able to choose what to put him into. Both my bikes and ccb would be focused on my anti tank if vehicles are going to be a problem so I don’t have to worry about the barge and the bikes wanting to be doing different things. Both units also have large footprints. Rites of reanimation has a 6” range and techno doesn’t mind missing out on a staff of light to advance. Including scarabs I havnt had issues with various unit speeds. Everything flies of course.
My other detachment is full board control so that’s basically all of my shooting/ anti tank. Multiple dynasties has been well worth the loss of protocols, especially not having to worry about having enough character coverage.