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With the Lash of Submission, the Chaos player can force an enemy unit to move. What happens if he directs the unit to move in and out of a dangerous terrain feature? They ignore difficult terrain tests, as per the rules, but it does not speak to dangerous terrain. Can the Chaos player make the unit move repeatedly in an out to force multiple checks and potential casualties?

1 test per turn I'd imagine.

The rules state you cannot force the unit to move off the table.

- G

Pretty sure you only take dangerous terrain tests if you end up in difficult terrain with jump troops or bikes.

Moving them in and out won't help since you have to finish their movement before you take the test.

They ignore difficult terrain means moving bikes or assault troops into difficult terrain will do nothing as they ignore it.

I would assert that "ignore difficult terrain" means that you would ignore the slowed movement, not that bikes and jump infantry get to ignore the potential hazards of crashing into cute squirrels and chipmunks among the trees. Remember, these types of units treat difficult terrain as dangerous terrain, which LoS clearly says to worry about.

Can someone post the actual quote? There seems to be a lot of assumptions going on in this thread without anything backing them up.

Posted By Green Bloater on 08/22/2007 2:48 PM
The rules state you cannot force the unit to move off the table.

- G

What does this have to do with Dangerous terrain?

So, yes, dangerous terrain tests do apply. Is there any rule actually stating that dangerous terrain tests can only be taken once per turn? Does a model moving through dangerous terrain and then fleeting through dangerous terrain take two tests? If you lash a unit into dangerous terrain, and then back again, would it take two tests?

The only place that specifies ending movement in terrain is jump infantry.

So you can't make more than 1 dangerous terrain test for jump infantry.

Bikes however can assumably be moved in and out of terrain.

This really should not have an effect, but I can't really point out anything that says 1 test per turn.

>>>As mentioned previously, some terrain features will be dangerous to move through. This is represented by the unit taking a Dangerou Terrain check. Roll a D6 for every model in the unit. Each roll of a 1 indicates a model suffers a wound with no Save possible.<<<

But couldn't you lash jump infantry into dangerous terrain, and then lash them again so they ended movement still inside the dangerous terrain, forcing another test?

Well there's another reason then to take anti-psychic powers like psychic hoods, etc.

Gosh it'd be great if all armies had them.

Dear guy with really silly username,

If you have not finished movement, you do not yet take a dangerous terrain test. If you have finished movement, you take the dangerous terrain test. If you take a dangerous terrain test, you cannot move them any further.

How is that not clear.

Sure bikes take DT tests every time they move into terrain, but jump infantry definitely have a 1 test per lash maximum.

I think he meant if you lash of submission the same squad twice (sorceror and daemon prince, for instance). You could theoretically move the same squad two times. Each time they could suffer dangerous terrain tests for moving amongst the trees and sucking squirrels into jet intakes or whatever.

Are we sure that jump infantry are subject to dangerous terrain tests caused by the lash?

These are the points I think important:
1) When a jump infantryman assaults, he does so on the ground, rolling a difficult terrain test.
2) Jump infantrymen can choose to walk into difficult terrain rather than jump into it.
3) The 2d6" that fzorgle moves people does not distinguish between movement modes - infantry and jump infantry move the same distance with the same restrictions.

Based on those points, I think that you can make a case that jump infantry are not subject to dangerous terrain tests when moving into difficult terrain (although they are clearly subject to dangerous terrain tests when moving into dangerous terrain).

You can't make the same case for bikers, because they don't have the option to dismount. Any move they make into difficult terrain will count as dangerous terrain.

That's correct tiderian, but the chaos player moves the unit as if it was his unit and his movement phase.

This is of course assuming you use movement phase rules for movement outside the movement phase (which is reasonable, since we do it for fleet and jet assault moves).

So he can chose not to walk them.

As for bikes, I imagine 1 test per turn will be the norm.

Posted By onlainari on 08/23/2007 9:51 PM
That's correct tiderian, but the chaos player moves the unit as if it was his unit and his movement phase.

This is of course assuming you use movement phase rules for movement outside the movement phase (which is reasonable, since we do it for fleet and jet assault moves).

So he can chose not to walk them.

You are making an assumption that the rule does not support.  The rule does not say the Choas player may choose the mode by which the unit moves, only that he may move it in the direction of his choice up to 2D6 inches.  "2D6 inches" is not normal movement for infantry, jump infantry or bikes,  so you can't claim that the Chaos player is moving it as if it were "his unit during a normal movement phase".  The fact that normal infantry may also be moved 2D6 inches negates any argument that jump infantry are necessarily using their jump packs.

To claim that the jump infantry are subject to dangerous terrain tests because the Chaos player is making them use their packs is just not supported by the rule's wording.

This has already been argued.

You use the movement phase rules for movement outside the movement phase.

The only exceptions are movement with their own rules, which include charging, pile in, and fall back.

Otherwise, all movement uses movement phase rules.

This includes fleet and jetpack/jetbike assault moves.

Do we really need to go through the whole process of proof by -rules break down if we don't follow this assumption-?

Thus since it's movement, it uses movement in the movement phase rules.

Onlainari, you're right, it was discussed, and you lost. Yet you still try to cobble together this movement phase argument! And again someone else points out to you how that isn't correct! (thank you, by the way, Beast)

Don't go around now claiming victory, to those people who got exhausted by your other posts and stopped reading them.

Posted By Antonin on 08/24/2007 9:03 AM
Onlainari, you're right, it was discussed, and you lost. Yet you still try to cobble together this movement phase argument! And again someone else points out to you how that isn't correct! (thank you, by the way, Beast)

I hardly think that completely destroying the arguments of all the people who can barely read past the elementary school level counts as him "losing" the argument. It's perfectly clear to anybody who understands basic logical arguments that Lash of Submission moves units according to the movement rules. To claim otherwise is to replace a logical argument with an argument drawn straight from your imagination.  This is especially true when you couldn't even manage to provide a quoted rule supporting your position, despite repeated requests to do so.  Failure to provide evidence to back up your position is a tacit admission that you don't have such evidence, and that you therefore don't have a valid argument.

Posted By Buoyancy on 08/24/2007 10:03 AM
It's perfectly clear to anybody who understands basic logical arguments that Lash of Submission moves units according to the movement rules. To claim otherwise is to replace a logical argument with an argument drawn straight from your imagination. 

Do you have a quote that says Lash grants the Chaos player the choice of how jump infantry move?  What about basic infantry? Jetpack troops?  They can't move 2D6 inches in the movement phase so how do you reconcile the difference logically between infantry and jump infantry?  You can't...  The rule says to move them 2D6" and does not make any reference to method of movement.  The rule could mean that they are warped to the new location, or maybe they do somesaults, or waltz...  You just don't know the method so you can't make any assumption- there just isn't enough information. 

Jump infantry and jetpack infantry have two modes of movement.  The Lash rule does not specify which to use.  For basic infantry and jetpack infantry, they may not normally move more than 6" so clearly the increased Lash movement distance is not normal.  By the same token (or extension of the same argument) it follws that Lash movement for all other units is not normal either (unless specifically excepted by the rule- which it isn't) and they must be treated the same.

Bikes and jump infantry can move up to 12 inches in their normal movement phase. Infantry and jetpack infantry may move up to 6 inches.  The Lash rule supercedes all of their their normal movement distance by granting the Chaos player the ability to move them up to 2D6 inches (far in excess of what some units may ever move- as I pointed out).  The rule does not say anything about the method that the unit moves.  To claim that it does is making an assumption that just isn't supported by the rule's wording.  Quote for us where it says the Chaos player may choose the method by which the unit moves (when there is a choice as in jump and jetpack infantry) and I will agree with you.  But until you do (which you can't) you are basing your interpretation on a faulty premise.

Um, we do know the method. It's 'movement'. There are rules for 'movement'. Since the rule doesn't give any other restrictions on the effect, the rules for movement are the only ones we can use. It's because the rules doesn't make any reference to method of movement that we fall back on the normal rules of movement. If you try to invoke anything else, then you're making it up.

It says the player using the lash can move the models. How do the models move? Well, since the lashing player is one moving them, he is the one who specifies, just as the player who normally controls them decides when he is the one moving them.


Of course the effect isn't normal, it's caused by the lash. The lash causes movement. What kind of movement? It doesn't say. So, the movement is normal movement, using the rules for movement in the book.


Nope, you're right, the rules says nothing about the method the unit is moved. And since you pointed out that it is the Chaos player doing the movement, which is true, it is left to him to decide. I don't need to quote anything, you pointed it out for me. If you think that something in the rule prevents the Chaos player from selecting one form of movement over another, please provide the quote, though.

Nope you are mistaken.  The rule clearly does not describe "normal" movement as I have pointed out.  The Chaos player is allowed to move the unit up to the 2D6 distance rolled.  No mention of method of movement is made (foot, jump, jet, bike or horse).  Does the rule say he gets to choose jump/jet movement over foot movement? No it doesn't, so you can't assume that is the case.  If the rule actually said something like: "all normal movement rules apply and the Chaos player may decide how the target unit moves", then you would be right.  Sadly for you it does not say that.

Here is the rule quote again:

"A psyker may use this psychic power in the Shooting phase instead of using another ranged weapon. Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker and within 24", and then take a Psychic test in order to use the power. If the test is successful, the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player. This move is not slowed by difficult terrain, but dangerous terrain tests are taken as normal. Victims may not be moved off the table, into impassable terrain or within 1" of enemy models. After this, the affected unit must take a Pinning test."

The highlighted section stipulates a specific distance (not method of travel) the unit may be moved by the Chaos player.  Does it say the Chaos player owns the unit for this turn?  No it does not. You can't assume that the method of movement is implied in the wording.  To do so is to claim an advantage where none is specifically granted.

I agree it's not normal movement it is a forced move. By reading it all it does is grant the Chaos player control over what direction the unit moves. Not how the unit moves if it has multiple methods of movement. When a rule debate like this comes up on the table at home or at a tournament where no FAQ is present typically whichever is less advantageous is what goes.

So if you move a assault unit 2D6" into difficult terrain it would assumed they walked receiving no dangerous terrain test as that is the less advantageous option. Bikes on the other hand as has been said would have to take a dangerous terrain test.

Beast, personificantion, and the other guy that clearly has not read this thread (and thus making a fool of himself):

<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0"> <tbody> <tr> <td width="100%" valign="top" rowspan="2" class="afsubject" title="In the movement phase section, there's a whole bunch of rules saying what you can do in the movement phase. I'm just wondering if there's anything suggesting these rules apply to movements outside of the movement phase. Obviously not moving charging units, pile in, or falling back as those have rules for them. But any movement done outside the movement phase and is not one of the above three, does it actually have any rules? Of course I assume the movement follows the movement phase rul...">Question about movement oustide of movement phase</td> <td align="right"> </td> </tr> <tr> <td nowrap="nowrap"> </td> </tr> </tbody> </table>
You guys all need to read that thread.

The conclusion is clear (and NOT disputed as that ant guy foolishly claimed).

Q: Is it movement?

- Yes.

=> Use the movement phase rules.

Is fleet movement? Yes. Use movement phase rules.

Is fzorgle movement? Yes. Use movement phase rules.

You guys are saying that fleet does not use movement phase rules, thus you can move through enemy models and out of coherency.

Learn the rules.

Since the Chaos player gets to move the models I can tell you right now with 99% certainty that the vast majority of players (and tournament judges) are going to rule that the moving player (the opponent) is allowed to choose that the Jump Pack troops are 'jumping' into terrain regardless of whatever RAW conclusion we could possibly hash out here.

As such, I personally don't see the point in even continuing the argument. Everybody's just going to play it that way right or wrong so you might as well just accept it and move on.


Of course, if that spiel doesn't convince you feel free to continue on with the arguing. . .

just wanted to clear something up that was stated earlier in the thread:

there's no such thing as dangerous terrain. there is such a thing, however, as a dangerous terrain test.

Actually I recall reading that you can label terrain as dangerous.

Also, Yak was addressing Personification's post, and I agree, Personification's post brings up pointless issues that we shouldn't even bother discussing.

However, Yak, we are also discussing if the chaos player may move the unit like it was movement in the movement phase. In other words, specifically, you can move "up to" the maximum movement.

What that means is that movement from the lash must adhere to the rules outlined in the normal movement rules. Thus he cannot move the units out of coherency to force them to have to regroup during their next movement phase. Nor can he move them onto another unit.

The rules for the Lash describe exactly what he can do which is move them 2D6 in any direction he chooses. It doesn't say he can move them anyway he chooses only the direction is specified.

It's another case of trying to RAW a rule all the while assuming rules at the same time.