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Amist all the crying and complaining of the uselessness of the Chaos Codex, has anyone noticed how GREAT these guys are?

(now for purposes of this post, I might assume a stance of "fire with bolt-pistol/not boltgun, and you may charge" as this is a -house rule- that we use locally in the expectations that this will be FAQ'ed, also aware of the fact that many people play this way now.  Some don't, sure, but for the purposes of this post, we'll assume its allowed for sake of arguement)

Chaos Space Marine wargear-CCW, Bolt Pistol, Bolt Gun, Frag, Krak

Marine wargear for same cost-Bolt Gun (or BP&CCW assuming trait)

I look at this simple fact for baseline troops and I'm thinking...WOW!  Not only that but the Havoc squads are equipped the same.  How about a Havoc (equivelant of a Dev Squad) Squad that needs no counterattacking unit to protect it from the inevitable HtH combat that it could see....maybe even with the mark of Khorne. 

Marines have always been sort of the "jack of all trades" army doing lots of things fairly well but being outclassed in many departments.  It seems to me that the HtH capability of a Shooty chaos marine army just got pumped a GREAT deal due to this little inclusion.

....just something I noticed that I figured might be a good subject for discussion.

Sure they're great, they just don't do anything.

I say it again. They're great. They don't do anything.

I was under the impression that the complaint with the new Chaos Space Marine wasn't that they're bad, so much as that they're not as good as the other choices in the list, Sons, DG, Berserkers, etc.

I tend to disagree...but I like cheaper troops, and lots of them.  Just because a unit doesnt "do anything" hardly makes it useless.  (not that these regular chaos marines DONT do anything. as a matter of fact they are capable of doing everything, shooting AND HtH, especially after customisation through marks)

Their old role in the most common tournament metagame was as small fire platform units, carrying lascannons and plasmaguns to provide cheap and reliable antitank, anti-Monstrous Creature, anti-terminator & anti-MEQ firepower. They are no longer good choices for this role, as they can't get the heavy weapon unless you take ten of them, which is no longer a cheap unit. Of the three now-revised Marine codices, loyalists are actually more efficient at this job, since Combat squads at least give you a 5-man squad with a lascannon while the other half can move around and try to do some other job.

That said, I do use basic SM/CSM squads for other purposes as well in my regular armies.

The most common loadout for my old Word Bearers/Fallen/Dark Angels lists was two or three of the now-defunct fire support squads, and two big squads (usually 10, occasionally only 8 if points were tight) in Rhinos. These units carry heavy & special, as well as having a vet/champ with Fist. though they usually only fire the heavy if the game situation really demands it. Most of the time their job is to move to take objectives, rapidfire when they get out and then mix it up in assault. While the fire support squads are definitely going to be missed, there's no reason two squads like this in Rhinos can't still serve the same functions they used to. The Rhinos are cheaper, which makes them mildly more efficient.

The bigger issue is figuring out what to support them with, in terms of pointsefficient high-strength & low-AP firepower. Oblits and Predators seem some of the best options, though Terminators with combi-weapons may also be a good option given their reduced price and the increased freedom to take multiple small squads as opposed to the old Chosen rules in the previous version of the codex.

Anything they can do, other troops can do better and for just a little more points you get so much better.

As alround things, nurgle will excel with T5 and FNP and up to 2 special weapons at any size.
Tzeentch will shoot the hell out of MEQ, Slaanesh the other people and beat them in CC and Khorne will hack them better(although Terminators will do this job alot better, both shooting and hacking)

Havocs are the only guys to even come close to Obliterators here, but probably loose out in the long run.

The thing with the new codexes is that there are some choices that are so much better at almost the same cost, making some choices just collecting dust never to be seen.

But the cult troops aren't "almost the same cost". They're substantially more expensive. To take them at a comparable cost you have to take fewer guys; and sometimes it's better to have the bodies.

Most Culttroops are about 6.5 to 10CSM, and if you count survival for nurgle/thousand sons beat that by far. Slaanesh doesnt survive that much but outshoots 10 csm also by alot, from a greater distance so they will also out last them.

There really is no reason to go for the standard marine.

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/26/2007 2:32 PM
Most Culttroops are about 6.5 to 10CSM, and if you count survival for nurgle/thousand sons beat that by far. Slaanesh doesnt survive that much but outshoots 10 csm also by alot, from a greater distance so they will also out last them.

There really is no reason to go for the standard marine.

Spoken like a true proponent of overpriced troopers, or simply one that doesnt know the value of cheaper troops.  None of the dedicated troop choices "do it all" like basic CSM can either.  You wont see Nurgle, thousand sons (at long range, but beaten in CC point for point), or Berserkers outshooting basic marines that are equipped to shoot.  If the CSM are being outshot by Slaanesh, the slaanesh that are doing the 'outshooting' cost a full 10 pts more apiece AT LEAST than each CSM.

I dont see the big advantage of the legions.  Sure they're good, but CSM will have a place in some very competative armies, that I'm sure of.

I think a lot of people underestimate the new basic chaos space marine. The combination Bolter and two close combat weapons makes it a good all round unit. Ive got two havoc units with a basic CSM unit with a lascannon and a plasmagun.. 10 normal CSM makes a good assault unit even without a powerfist or powerweapon...... I play against a few tyranid armies and now its much harder for gaunts and genestealers to tie up or kill the basic unit CSM. My buddy uses a lot of 6 genestealers units.. but know he makes them bigger because 6 genestealers get killed against a 10 CSM unit...

I really like them, and I like their model kit and fluff as well. I think they really stand up to Plague Marines in terms of points cost. There's something to be said for not being outnumbered and otherwise winning close combat.

Like I said, the only unit that is really optional is the Havocs.. but obliterators outshine them most of the time anyway. And yes, slaanesh outshoots at a full 10 points a model more, but they waste a lot more then 10 points value of spacemarines before getting killed, even with the less bodycount. I said the cults outdo the CSM point for point in the aspect they are made for, not that berserkers can outshoot them, but you know what to do with your troops dont you?

What exactly are you planning to do with them?

The jack of all trades, master of none did not work in this game before and still dont, you get a thing in your army for it to do something. At least in competative play. Then again, the cult troops wont be the big winners of the day in competative play either.

In terms of fighting each other a plaguemarine will totally crush a CSM point by point. Against other types it will diffrent a little depending on what you face, the only unit that really kills nurgles more then CSM  are CC units with powerweapons.

Decision tree:

Chaos Space Marines are very cheap for what you get
|
I want to use Chaos Space Marines
|
| - Take an all round unit, lascannon, powerfist, plasmagun - no longer cheap for what you get
| - Take a lascannon - don't use the bonus gear - no longer cheap for what you get
| - Take a combat unit with a powerfist in a rhino - too much risk to stay in rhino after first turn smoke - has to footslog two or three turns - not an effective combat unit (still cheap though)
| - Only take 6 marines with a special weapon - still cheap - will get into combat with good combat units, will get into shooting matches with good shooting units - don't end up doing anything
|
Better off taking a unit that does something.

I think there are several errors in there.

The all round unit IS cheap for what you get, as you're getting a unit that fills multiple roles for around the same price as a cult unit that is better at its specialty but inefficient outside it. 10 CSM w/hvy, special, and fist champ take wounds better than Noise Marines, shoot longe range better than Berserkers, Plague Marines, or T-sons, shoot short range better than Berserkers, assault better than T-Sons (better than Noise Marines when you're up against a fist), etc. While specialized units are traditionally the mainstay, units which can fill multiple roles CAN indeed be useful. I do win tournaments here and there with my two full Rhinos.

I agree that taking 10 guys just for a lascannon is silly.

The risk of staying in the Rhino is entirely dependent on the terrain and the opponent. I'm frequently able to move twice in them, and that's a lot of distance. Berserkers, Plague Marines, and T-Sons are also Rhino-dependent if they want to close to killing range without being gunned down walking across the table.

6 men with special have debatable utility. Might work with melta and champion in a Rhino, as it'd be a fairly inexpensive way of filling the troop slot while still being capable of ruining a vehicle's day or taking down a softer enemy squad. You'd probably be better off doing it with Nurgle or Slaanesh (Doom Sirens are cool) unless you're really trying to stay cheap as dirt.

Well said Mannahein,

Its the "all roundness" of these guys that really makes them.  I think it actually makes them the better "tournement" choice in the troops selection just because of their flexibility.

You dont know what you're hitting in a tournement so a unit of 10 with a heavy, special, powerfist, and rhino would be useful against ANY enemy.  Any of the legions arent ...

point for point our unit would be better than....

10 Thousand Sons with full options against Orks (shooting and HtH)

10 Berserkers with full options against Tyranids (shooting easily, possibly HtH since losses will be cheaper)

10 Slannesh against anything with higher Initiative in CC (witches, Tyranids, Harlequins/banshees, ect.) and comparable shooting when considering point costs

10 nurgle  when shooting at range or HtH against high str w/no save allowed.

 

The other troops are specialists and you cant cover ALL the bases with just choosing one type.  You CAN cover all the bases, possibly not as effectively (but they're covered), with CSM.

 

I play Iron Warriors so the lack of an army list for them in the new dex has left me high and dry.  My only option is to use basic chaos marines if i want to continue to play as Iron Warriors.

My chaos marine squads that i have always fielded consisted of 9 marines(one missile launcher and one plasma gun), one champion with a powerfist, in a rhino with smoke extra armor and a havoc missile launcher.

I will continue to field them in this way.

I have always liked the versatility of this particular set-up because i use the rhino as a razorback or tank in its own right.  The squad begins deployed and in cover if possible so as to have a good firing arc.  I am a rather defensive player.

I usually field 3-4 squads like this in a game so sometimes i will advance in the rhino and then deploy first turn out on a flank.  Or simply march the squad in a certain direction on the first turn so subsequent turns i will be able to be in rapid fire range.

I also take multiple predator tanks so they support the infantry and vice versa quite well.

Anyways, i've always like the basic marine stat, and heck its a lot better than a guardsman!

Here's how I look at it:

CSMs are 4 (or more) pts more per than sisters, who perform rhino based shooting very well. CSM also pay 23pts less per for rhinos, though they lose extra armor. CSMs lose Divine Guidance and Spirit of the Martyr, but gain LD10, BP/CCW, a marine stat-line, and the option for +1 I, re-rolling moral, or +1 attack.

Thinking, not in terms of one or two squads of CSMs, but in terms of 4 or more. 10 men, fist, 2 meltas, Icon of Khorne, Rhino runs you 275pts. That's not longer cheap, until you realize what it entails: lots of bolters, tons of attacks, and a few melta guns.

I'm not sure it's a top tier list, but I don't think it's weak.

275 pts, that is very expensive, how in gods end are you gonna make them earn that? You are talking prices up at 10 man terminator squads here. If you pack them full of gear for beeing all round you will have gotten gear for alot of points that wont be used. Champ with pfist and lascannon-plasma will counter work and end up beeing wasted points.


And yes, the CSM is more versatile but if you build your army to do what is it supposed too, why would you need it? Take your troop choices to fit in with your army and you will have a lot more use for them.

This is for most effiency, not fun or fluff or whatever, there you can use them as much as you want. Together with the totally screwed predators, now that possesion is crap for them.

Btw, if you count 10 vs 10 the cults will always be more expensive but go by points instead and check for yourself. Also dont just count against the 1 worst thing that you can face, count against all you will face in a trounament and see wich comes out on top most of the times.

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/27/2007 3:42 PM
Btw, if you count 10 vs 10 the cults will always be more expensive but go by points instead and check for yourself. Also dont just count against the 1 worst thing that you can face, count against all you will face in a trounament and see wich comes out on top most of the times.

Yea, lets look at who's better considering his 275 pt squad, shall we?....

 

Lets consider plague marines first, for 279 pts instead of the 275 you get kitted out exactly the same except there are only 8 of them.  Squad vs. Squad shooting is pretty ineffectual against either unit, bolters dont hurt plague marines hardly at all, and 6 bolters shooting at a squad of 10 marines doenst do much either.  the two melta's in either squad kill equal members of the opposition, except plaguemarines still are wounded on 2's and get no 'feel no pain' since its double base toughness.  In static close combat, the plague marines also come out loosers getting only 14 attacks at initiative 3 and 3power fist attacks, the CSM get 27 total attacks and 4 powerfist attacks.  I'm not going to get into mathhammer here, but numbers AND number of attacks with powerfists tells me that the plaguemarine unit will die first barring bad luck.

Berserkers?  Again, 8 marines considering powerfist Sargeant and replacing meltas with a couple of plasma pistols.  Shooting?  CSM have the definate advantage with rapid fire weapons and two meltas (considered better than plasma pistols).  Fighting each other in static CC seems to me to be a stalemate.  CSM have numbers with two more, but Berserkers hit on 3+.  The winner here will probably largely be determined on who gets the charge off first.  Basic attacks are MUCH more telling in this combat since there is no feel no pain and both are equally capable of causing casualties.

Thousand Sons...shooting?  Granted they win.  But they REALLY need their rhino to utilise effectively.  You've got 9 marines here and a sorcerer with Warptime, because the Sons are about to get stomped in HtH.  No CCW's here for normal marines thats 8 normal attacks and 3 force weapon attacks, the CSM's come back with again 27 static CCW attacks and 4 power fist.  No contest.

Noise marines might look like they are actually better coming in at a trim 20 pts apeice and a higher Initiative giving them an edge in Combat.  They have lots more options squad wide for buying wargear though so it just depends here.  Considering the other three, however, I seriously DOUBT that they are THAT much better than their basic CSM counterparts, especially if they decide to go with the mark of Slaanesh instead of Khorne.  Personally, I beleive it is the smarter mark anyway, considering its the second cheapest and initiative 5 is so nice to have, especially in defensive cc fighting.

....so tell me again, HOW much better are the Legions compared to basic marines?

Count on the plaguemarines using plasmaguns since they will get FNP vs overheat and they will have dropped you to minimal numbers before you even get close.

The berserks are very rhino dependant and will be in alot of trouble if it dies, ill grant you that. But basically if they get the charge they will win othervise it is a pretty even game. (would also dump the pistols there and probably run a power wepon on the champion to get the usefulness from furious charge)

Thousand sons will run bolt of change on the sorcerer usually and you wont be riding your rhino far against it.

Noisemarines will be about even against CSM but excel against hordes.

So the kults are a WORLD better when doing what they are made for and at least at par with the CSM against this specific enemy.

I like the new basic chaos space marine... even compared with all the cult marines.... but every time I compose a unit of basic/cult chaos space marines... I think about how much terminators I can get for that amount of points. the basic terminator with a power weapon and a combi melta or plasma... its good against anything... I like the cheap slanesh +1I for my power weapon termies... I think the new Chaos termies are the best buy for any chaos army....

Its also a problem for the havoc's.. I used to field a 6 havoc squad with 4 missle launchers and tank hunters.. but now instead its better to field 3 obliterators for about 25 points more... Its not a bad squad but for the same amount of points there is sumthing better....

Remember, that versatile unit of marines will not be both in combat and shooting their heavy weapon.

You're paying 270+ points for a unit that can do everything, but not at once.

Therefore I stand by my assertion that it's no longer cheap for what you get.

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/28/2007 3:39 AM
Count on the plaguemarines using plasmaguns since they will get FNP vs overheat and they will have dropped you to minimal numbers before you even get close.

The berserks are very rhino dependant and will be in alot of trouble if it dies, ill grant you that. But basically if they get the charge they will win othervise it is a pretty even game. (would also dump the pistols there and probably run a power wepon on the champion to get the usefulness from furious charge)

Thousand sons will run bolt of change on the sorcerer usually and you wont be riding your rhino far against it.

Noisemarines will be about even against CSM but excel against hordes.

So the kults are a WORLD better when doing what they are made for and at least at par with the CSM against this specific enemy.

I'll never get close to plaguemarines because of plasmaguns?  Why?  Because you're a better tactician than me?

For the berserkers you just conceded my point, I said whoever would get the charge would win.  I put the pistols in there to match gear up as best as I could.  I would probably trade the Khorne Icon for one of slaanesh, but the examples I was using concerned the Khorne Icon upgrade...I simply constructed quick comparable squads.

Your Thousand Son example is ridiculous, I run Rhino transported troops into the firing lanes ALL THE TIME and still get to the target.  Everyone does...it happens.

Noisemarines will only EXEL against hordes if you lay tons of points down for a unit.  I'm willing to bet a tooled out anti-horde squad is worth almost two full squads of CSM with a simple heavy bolter.  I'll take the numbers thanx.

You still havent proven your point.  I'll concede that the Kults are a bit better at their specialties, a bit.  However, the CSM's are MUCH better all rounders, which serves to make them a smart choice in any chaos list.

Posted By onlainari on 08/28/2007 5:47 AM
Remember, that versatile unit of marines will not be both in combat and shooting their heavy weapon.

You're paying 270+ points for a unit that can do everything, but not at once.

Therefore I stand by my assertion that it's no longer cheap for what you get.

Not cheap for what you get out of the Kults either, so I guess we're in agreeance that the CSM's are just as viable as the Kults.  'Cept you get more heads on the table with CSM's.

Maybe you should:
CSM ccw: 27 * 1/2 * 1/3 * 1/3 * 1/2 = 27/36 or 9/12
CSM Fist: 4 *1/2 *5/6 = 20/12
Total kills 29/12

PM ccws: 14 * 1/2 * 1/2 * 1/3 = 14/12
PM Fist: 3 * 1/2 * 5/6 = 15/12
Total kills 29/12

Granted, plague marines go I3 so PM have 75% chance of losing a guy before there ccws attacks. However, the edge isn't that much (1/6 MEqs). Then figure Plague marines are fearless but CSM with khorne mark aren't. If CSM happen to lose a combat like this then there's a notable chance the CSM will run. With no ATSKNF to help them rally that could be bad for your CSM. We're also ignoring the fact that plaguemarines will get the charge bonus against the CSM while the reverse is not true.

Personally (as a salamander player that runs units like this all the time), I'd rather take PM's. They have a good deal more resiliency against most units they'll face even with the two less wounds. Also, doesn't FnP work verus vehicle destroyed wounds? If true that's a big deal for a rhino borne squad.

No we dont. CSM marines have no place in a optimized armylist. If you are making an army it usually have a purpose and there you get outdone.

If you manage to run your rhino into someones lines you are still better off with zerkers.. and he deserves to die if it happens all the time without any counter protection. And you will still have spent 275 points on the squad and wont be using your ranged weaponry. With just a little anti-tank you can definently stop rhinos, even the plasmaguns themself will have a good chance of that. Ofc a lucky rhino can make it thru sometimes but you will probably have some countermessure against that. Doesnt take a great tactican to set that up.

6 noisemarines with sonicblasters is 150 pts, you are running 275 into a CSM squad.. guess who kills hordes better?
Thousandsons in a rhino can shoot its bolt of change all the time while driving if they want.. they will destroy you before you get upclose to them.
Berserkers will win if they charge, othervise it will be an even fight.. I think that makes them superior.

Also, you dont take into the account the fearless that will help you out in some spots.. esp when you dont loose your unit instantly below 50%.

So no, CSM isnt viable in the top tier competion.

10 CSM with mark of undivided and Las/Plas is a viable buy compared to the noise marine squad that costs the same for 6 guys and has less firepower.

195pts is a lot of points for a las/plas squad, almost twice what it was before, but it does have 4 more warm bodies.

So they'll get to camp an objective and shoot their guns the whole game.

How does 195pts of CSM's compare to cult troops? Not so well it seems like.

6 Noise Marines with a blastmaster and 5 sonic blasters -185pts

7 Plague Marines with 2 plasmaguns - 191
6 plague marines with 2 meltaguns and a rhino - 193 pts

6 berserkers with a powerfist vet and 2 plasmapistols - 196pts

6 Thousand sons with a BOC sorcerer - 200pts

For resilient long-range shooting (36"+) none of those compare to the humble las/plas squad sitting in cover. Only the Tzeentch squad compares in raw 24" firepower (due to Ap3 bolters).

Personally, in a long range army I'd take the normal CSM's the more I think about it.

The fundamental problem with the cult troops other than Nurgle is that they all get flat out owned by small arms. No matter how choppy they are they aren't any more resilient to small arms fire than a normal marine, for around 50% more points. And their points premium makes it a GOOD IDEA to shoot bolters at them.

Nurgle is a special case, in that they have no long range firepower and their close combat options are limited and expensive. You could consider buying a whole lot of them but I really don't know if it'd be a good idea or not.

the downside for Nurgle is that a squad of genestealers or harlequins is still gonna eat them for breakfast, no matter what.

I will digress with you on only one point. The Death Guard are worth every point. I will take any all-round CSM army any day with the DG. Both the CSM and DG are armed the same way, with the DG having the luxury or letting you have the charge with their Blight Grenades. A ten man CSM squad with Plasma Gun & Lascannon is 185. A six man DG squad with two Plasma Guns is 168. Over the lifetime of the unit, both will end up losing an average of 10 wounds. The DG player could hit a streak of saves, and actually push that number up into the teens....

I did not figure in Champions and 'Fists, as these are the same points. In HTH against one another, the DG will average more kills, as the T5 and FNP(twin-linked save 'round these parts) will allow the DG to win in the end. DG being Fearless also tips the scale in their favor.

In 1000 points, I can drop 1 DG marine, and shoe horn in 6 squads, giving me 12 PG's vs your 5 squads, and the only way to make all those Lascannons worthwhile is to stand still, as that is the only weapon I don't get a FNP save against....

So, as far as all-around, I think DG with 2 special weapons, are better, as you get the Blight Grenades, Fearless, T5, FNP & the two special weapons at any unit size......for ONLY 8 points more per model....

Posted By Kallbrand on 08/28/2007 10:19 AM
No we dont. CSM marines have no place in a optimized armylist. If you are making an army it usually have a purpose and there you get outdone.

If you manage to run your rhino into someones lines you are still better off with zerkers.. and he deserves to die if it happens all the time without any counter protection. And you will still have spent 275 points on the squad and wont be using your ranged weaponry. With just a little anti-tank you can definently stop rhinos, even the plasmaguns themself will have a good chance of that. Ofc a lucky rhino can make it thru sometimes but you will probably have some countermessure against that. Doesnt take a great tactican to set that up.

6 noisemarines with sonicblasters is 150 pts, you are running 275 into a CSM squad.. guess who kills hordes better?
Thousandsons in a rhino can shoot its bolt of change all the time while driving if they want.. they will destroy you before you get upclose to them.
Berserkers will win if they charge, othervise it will be an even fight.. I think that makes them superior.

Also, you dont take into the account the fearless that will help you out in some spots.. esp when you dont loose your unit instantly below 50%.

So no, CSM isnt viable in the top tier competion.

Kallbrand, your examples arent very good.  You make assumptions that the opposing player is simply walking straight forward into your guns.  Comparing 6 noismarines at 150 to the 275pt squad above is also ridiculous, I never said that that was the best combo for CSM, it was an example that I used created by another poster.  I still fail to see how you figure the same unit charging Berserkers winds up with an even fight on their hands if the Berserkers are charged, you're simply delusional there.

Saying CSM arent viable or have no place in a top tier armylist....well, I'm not certain Chaos will be top tier anymore anyway, not with the way Tau, Nids, and Eldar are currently being run.  Considering your arguements (of which you really have none, you simply say "Kults are better" without providing decent examples) I wonder if you really know what "Top Tier" armies really look like.