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pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna have to jump in and say that I am not a fan of those Dread Bases. Where is 'And They Shall Know Fear'?

Someone light the Hulk signal.

Edit: Wow, Ninja'd by the man himself.

Congrats, btw Hulk! Any word on the bases?

To put this to bed, I modeled those dreads. They are only, I repeat only, a disadvantage, and I modelled them accordingly, ON PURPOSE.

I know you aren't trying to create any drama or anything, but these things spin out of control usually, so I'll explain it. I modelled those dreads for the coolness factor, I was tired of losing points on basing to not going complex enough, so I did those, when I did them I knew this would be an issue (but never how much of one) so I measured very carefully and made sure I gained no net height on the barrels.

The dreads are taller, the barrels of the gun are within 1/16th of an inch (thats what I'd call my measuring error) to a basic gw dread, with FW arms, mounted on the high points of the standard gw scenic base. I've had this come up now (much to my dismay) at every GT I've been to, with some players flat out calling me a cheater before the game even started, even though I've never shot over my own rhinos (which is hilarious, since you can, it's perfectly legal with the gw model + FW arms). My last round opponent laughed at me when we talked about it, as he shot over his rhinos at me all game, and I refused to, but thats a tangent.

RAMBLING!

So, how are they not taller with such a high looking base?!

-The base is only ~1/4 to 1/6th of an inch, if that, taller then the GW dread base high points
-I scratch built the shoulders out of plasticard, when doing so I bulked up the top, and lowered where I mounted them, so the top of the shoulder appears to be at the same height as the gw, but in reality it's mounted lower, this is how I give back the height the base grants.

How is it a disadvantage as I first mentioned?

You get cover saves for 50% obscurement, the base doesnt count towards this, so since the model is actually taller, it's very rare I can obscure the legs to get a cover save, yet the barrels are at the same height.

To sum it all up, no, they're the correct height, and if people really wanted to, I could break one of them off and put it on a gw base with a photo, but I'd rather not (due to you know, breaking my models). I'll never again try to model something cool like this, as it's just created endless headaches for me at GT's. Which is sad, because it was a lot of fun sculpting that base. C'est la vie.

Target wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna have to jump in and say that I am not a fan of those Dread Bases. Where is 'And They Shall Know Fear'?

Someone light the Hulk signal.

Edit: Wow, Ninja'd by the man himself.

Congrats, btw Hulk! Any word on the bases?

To put this to bed, I modeled those dreads. They are only, I repeat only, a disadvantage, and I modelled them accordingly, ON PURPOSE.

I know you aren't trying to create any drama or anything, but these things spin out of control usually, so I'll explain it. I modelled those dreads for the coolness factor, I was tired of losing points on basing to not going complex enough, so I did those, when I did them I knew this would be an issue (but never how much of one) so I measured very carefully and made sure I gained no net height on the barrels.

The dreads are taller, the barrels of the gun are within 1/16th of an inch (thats what I'd call my measuring error) to a basic gw dread, with FW arms, mounted on the high points of the standard gw scenic base. I've had this come up now (much to my dismay) at every GT I've been to, with some players flat out calling me a cheater before the game even started, even though I've never shot over my own rhinos (which is hilarious, since you can, it's perfectly legal with the gw model + FW arms). My last round opponent laughed at me when we talked about it, as he shot over his rhinos at me all game, and I refused to, but thats a tangent.

RAMBLING!

So, how are they not taller with such a high looking base?!

-The base is only ~1/4 to 1/6th of an inch, if that, taller then the GW dread base high points
-I scratch built the shoulders out of plasticard, when doing so I bulked up the top, and lowered where I mounted them, so the top of the shoulder appears to be at the same height as the gw, but in reality it's mounted lower, this is how I give back the height the base grants.

How is it a disadvantage as I first mentioned?

You get cover saves for 50% obscurement, the base doesnt count towards this, so since the model is actually taller, it's very rare I can obscure the legs to get a cover save, yet the barrels are at the same height.

To sum it all up, no, they're the correct height, and if people really wanted to, I could break one of them off and put it on a gw base with a photo, but I'd rather not (due to you know, breaking my models). I'll never again try to model something cool like this, as it's just created endless headaches for me at GT's. Which is sad, because it was a lot of fun sculpting that base. C'est la vie.

Besides you playing GK you dont seem like the cheating type to me. I wouldnt really fuss over it myself. If you can justify it your fine.

You have the time in your life to go out and spend hours and hours playing with plastic toy soldiers. Why not just enjoy that? Remember when ig and the 'leafblower' were the big thing, and everyone threw a gak fit about how imba ig were? I remember this forum blowing up about how so many people brought them to adepticon, and how darkwynn quit playing that build because people spread their butthurt to him about it. Now though, nobody cares about ig, and its gk that are broken. Give it another year, and we will have some other army that will be bitched about endlessly. Why? Its just the cycle, I enjoy it, new armies provide new challenges and require different tactics to beat. So the game is an ever changing problem, and not a simple equation.

Notice that, aside from one 'Ard Boyz where a guy who happened to write a lot on BoLS admittedly got perfect deployment and 1st turn, they didn't dominate events the way SW and GK's have, nor have they generally comprised the same % of attendees generally that those two armies have since their 5E releases.

I would have to disagree since I am that person. I won events back to back for almost two years with that list even Adepticon. The IG list is still strong that bieng said Grey knights have tipped the balance and they have plenty of problems.

Grey knights make average or poor players good and good players great.

Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:

pretre wrote:Yeah, I'm gonna have to jump in and say that I am not a fan of those Dread Bases. Where is 'And They Shall Know Fear'?

Someone light the Hulk signal.

Edit: Wow, Ninja'd by the man himself.

Congrats, btw Hulk! Any word on the bases?

To put this to bed, I modeled those dreads. They are only, I repeat only, a disadvantage, and I modelled them accordingly, ON PURPOSE.

I know you aren't trying to create any drama or anything, but these things spin out of control usually, so I'll explain it. I modelled those dreads for the coolness factor, I was tired of losing points on basing to not going complex enough, so I did those, when I did them I knew this would be an issue (but never how much of one) so I measured very carefully and made sure I gained no net height on the barrels.

The dreads are taller, the barrels of the gun are within 1/16th of an inch (thats what I'd call my measuring error) to a basic gw dread, with FW arms, mounted on the high points of the standard gw scenic base. I've had this come up now (much to my dismay) at every GT I've been to, with some players flat out calling me a cheater before the game even started, even though I've never shot over my own rhinos (which is hilarious, since you can, it's perfectly legal with the gw model + FW arms). My last round opponent laughed at me when we talked about it, as he shot over his rhinos at me all game, and I refused to, but thats a tangent.

RAMBLING!

So, how are they not taller with such a high looking base?!

-The base is only ~1/4 to 1/6th of an inch, if that, taller then the GW dread base high points
-I scratch built the shoulders out of plasticard, when doing so I bulked up the top, and lowered where I mounted them, so the top of the shoulder appears to be at the same height as the gw, but in reality it's mounted lower, this is how I give back the height the base grants.

How is it a disadvantage as I first mentioned?

You get cover saves for 50% obscurement, the base doesnt count towards this, so since the model is actually taller, it's very rare I can obscure the legs to get a cover save, yet the barrels are at the same height.

To sum it all up, no, they're the correct height, and if people really wanted to, I could break one of them off and put it on a gw base with a photo, but I'd rather not (due to you know, breaking my models). I'll never again try to model something cool like this, as it's just created endless headaches for me at GT's. Which is sad, because it was a lot of fun sculpting that base. C'est la vie.

Besides you playing GK you dont seem like the cheating type to me. I wouldnt really fuss over it myself. If you can justify it your fine.

Hahahhaa, I maintain I'm no more cheaty than anyone playing SW/GK/IG. Hell, I won way more and more decisively with my IG last year than I do with my GK this year. I just got bored with people complaining when I set down my IG (which wasn't a stationary shooting version either), so I decided to redo my daemonhunters (what a misstaaakeee).

I actually decided after posting that to just give up and take a scale shot for these, due to how much it's come up, to reference people to from now on. Models are the same throughout the photos, the last one shows what I was talking about with not getting cover saves, the purple guy gets a cover save for 50% obscurement with the leathermen (pseudo terrain) in front of him, mine does not (since base doesnt count towards % obscured). Barrels are at the same height as shown in the earlier photo (the perspective is weird in the final cover save one, I was holding the camera). Yay.






Automatically Appended Next Post:

Darkwynn wrote:

You have the time in your life to go out and spend hours and hours playing with plastic toy soldiers. Why not just enjoy that? Remember when ig and the 'leafblower' were the big thing, and everyone threw a gak fit about how imba ig were? I remember this forum blowing up about how so many people brought them to adepticon, and how darkwynn quit playing that build because people spread their butthurt to him about it. Now though, nobody cares about ig, and its gk that are broken. Give it another year, and we will have some other army that will be bitched about endlessly. Why? Its just the cycle, I enjoy it, new armies provide new challenges and require different tactics to beat. So the game is an ever changing problem, and not a simple equation.

Notice that, aside from one 'Ard Boyz where a guy who happened to write a lot on BoLS admittedly got perfect deployment and 1st turn, they didn't dominate events the way SW and GK's have, nor have they generally comprised the same % of attendees generally that those two armies have since their 5E releases.

I would have to disagree since I am that person. I won events back to back for almost two years with that list even Adepticon. The IG list is still strong that bieng said Grey knights have tipped the balance and they have plenty of problems.

Grey knights make average or poor players good and good players great.

IG had an enormous showing as far as % of players goes, at least in the east coast GT's, and was just as winning (I think more so actually..). I won both SVDM and Conflict GT last year with IG, and there were other IG in the top rungs of those events as well.

Mike B. took BFS with IG that year as well.

I can't speak for the whole country, but IG were very dominant outside of your Ard Boyz showing as well.

Target wrote:
IG were very dominant outside of your Ard Boyz showing as well.

uh ummm.... key word that was were... I have taken them to the indy and adepticon and manage to make the second day in both events and the final table in one event thank you. They can still be dominant but it takes a wee bit more to make it happen especially with the amount of KP missions out there.

Tomb King wrote:

Target wrote:
IG were very dominant outside of your Ard Boyz showing as well.

uh ummm.... key word that was were... I have taken them to the indy and adepticon and manage to make the second day in both events and the final table in one event thank you. They can still be dominant but it takes a wee bit more to make it happen especially with the amount of KP missions out there.

Eh, I've played them, though not in GT's, and found them just as good this year (my opponents are almost exclusively GT winners, just because it's the guys I know around here, so it's not seal clubbing).

Thing is, most of the GK lists that come to tournaments and do well are just as KP heavy as guard. Draigowing has yet to win a major event, so we're talking your typical psyfle/psyback spam list with a unit of purifiers. At 2k that list is usually something like this, rough made, it would need tweaking to be a "real" list:

6x psyback + occupants (12 kp) (372)
2 hqs (2 kp) (~155, coteaz + nade inquisitor))
5 dreads (all psyfle) (5 kp) (795)
10 purifiers + transport (2kp) (325)
10 purifiers + transport (2kp) (325)

Total points: 1972 (I forgot how big this list could get...

Clocking in at 23 kp

My 2k guard list was 24 kp

Man, sorry that got to that point. I _REALLY_ didn't want this turning into the latest internet drama. Thanks for showing the pictures though. You guys did an amazing job on those.

daedalus wrote:Man, sorry that got to that point. I _REALLY_ didn't want this turning into the latest internet drama. Thanks for showing the pictures though. You guys did an amazing job on those.

No problem! I just wanted to nip it in the bud as usually these things spiral quickly on the net, but now people know, shooting over rhinos is legal, if a bit lame, mind you, they still couldn't target things shorter than the rhino unless the dread is higher than the rhino ( since the shot would draw Los through the hull).

But, I'll say it's good to put a screen name to a face, your guys team was a blast to play, and def not an easy match, that caestus was nasty! I'd gladly share a fun game with any of you at an event in the future, or if you came to the east coast!

GK are Nob Bikers all over again. I'm not saying GK aren't the best or 2nd best book, they are one of those. So were Orks at the time. While you can always beat Orks because of what they are you have to beat GK by looking to the mission and outmaneuvering them.

I think people think GK are so crazy because their is nearly an infinite number of excellent lists you can make considering all the options for Power Armor and Henchman units supporting by as few as 1 to as many as 6 psydreads which cover their key weakness. If they hadn't included the AC option on the dread they would probably would be in the same boat as DE and BA instead of having made them redundant.

Target wrote:

What is the base of the Dread to the left? Is that an official base? Obviously it can be abused to claim cover saves behind Rhinos in many situations, even if GW's intent may be to just provide a cool looking scenic base. Personally I've never seen a Dread on a heightened base, but as long as your Dread rifles are same height as the official ones I would be ok with it.

The problem with those bases IMO is that they look so incredibly modelled for advantage. It seems to be an optical illusion as even though you have shown evidence that the AC's are the same height as the "official" model, they still look like they gain a huge advantage when looked at separatedly.

I will be honest and say that those bases are likely to have made me sour before a game. Of course it would help a lot when you don't shoot over your rhinos, but I don't know that you are a perfectly nice person before we play, and as said before, without the photographic evidence, the optical illusion is that those dreads gain a large advantage from the base. The last part is that they IMO just don't make the "rule of cool". You have a team with 8-9 of those? All in the same pose on the same base. The dreads are not interacting with the scenic base at all, nothing is really happening with the base, there are no differences between any of them and the most obvious aspect of the base is that is it tall. The bases actually reinforce the spam aspect.

The above combines into a very negative perception before the game, which you have to fight against with your play, which possibly made you play the dreads even more to your opponent's advantage than you would have. I think you were right in stating that you should not have made those bases.

N.I.B. wrote:

Target wrote:

What is the base of the Dread to the left? Is that an official base? Obviously it can be abused to claim cover saves behind Rhinos in many situations, even if GW's intent may be to just provide a cool looking scenic base. Personally I've never seen a Dread on a heightened base, but as long as your Dread rifles are same height as the official ones I would be ok with it.

That is the base that comes with a dreadnought when you buy a kit. So yes, it is an official base.

Illumini wrote:The problem with those bases IMO is that they look so incredibly modelled for advantage. It seems to be an optical illusion as even though you have shown evidence that the AC's are the same height as the "official" model, they still look like they gain a huge advantage when looked at separatedly.

I will be honest and say that those bases are likely to have made me sour before a game. Of course it would help a lot when you don't shoot over your rhinos, but I don't know that you are a perfectly nice person before we play, and as said before, without the photographic evidence, the optical illusion is that those dreads gain a large advantage from the base. The last part is that they IMO just don't make the "rule of cool". You have a team with 8-9 of those? All in the same pose on the same base. The dreads are not interacting with the scenic base at all, nothing is really happening with the base, there are no differences between any of them and the most obvious aspect of the base is that is it tall. The bases actually reinforce the spam aspect.

The above combines into a very negative perception before the game, which you have to fight against with your play, which possibly made you play the dreads even more to your opponent's advantage than you would have. I think you were right in stating that you should not have made those bases.

Here's the issue: you don't have 99% of the facts right in your above post

1) I have chat this with my opponent before we start the game where I inform him the guns don't gain height, the judges have checked, and that I won't be shooting over my rhino's regardless.

2) Our team of 4 people has 5 total dreads, 2 in one 2000 point army, 3 in the other. Not that the number we have should matter, but it's not "8 to 9"

3) "The last part is that they IMO just don't make the "rule of cool". You have a team with 8-9 of those? All in the same pose on the same base. The dreads are not interacting with the scenic base at all, nothing is really happening with the base, there are no differences between any of them and the most obvious aspect of the base is that is it tall. The bases actually reinforce the spam aspect. "

So because you feel there are too many in the army list (which you have incorrect, as you think there are double the actual number), and you personally don't like the base, you feel they don't follow the "rule of cool". The rule of cool is for conversion legality, it's "if it looks cool, it's generally acceptable". You can base your model on anything you want, it isn't a conversion. What I'm getting from your above sentence is that you have something personal against psyfle dreads, you've insulted the number and called it "spam aspect". This has nothing to do with the models. And before you insult the lack of different poses and other conversions, I'd like to see a few photos of your models, and we can see who passes the rule of cool. In tournaments and games I get about 10 compliments on the bases for every 1 "isnt that thing too tall?" comment I receive. In each army you'd play, you'd face 2 or 3 of those, not 8-9, 2 models in the same pose is too many?

4) " I think you were right in stating that you should not have made those bases. " "I will be honest and say that those bases are likely to have made me sour before a game."

So, you think that because people can perceive something negatively, I shouldn't have had fun with the hobby as I enjoy it (sculpting and modelling) because other people can't be expected to be responsible, respectful adults? If you get sour before a game, without waiting to speak to your opponent about something you're not sure about before passing judgement, well...

This hobby makes me quite sad some times.

Illumini wrote:
I will be honest and say that those bases are likely to have made me sour before a game. Of course it would help a lot when you don't shoot over your rhinos, but I don't know that you are a perfectly nice person before we play, and as said before, without the photographic evidence, the optical illusion is that those dreads gain a large advantage from the base. The last part is that they IMO just don't make the "rule of cool". You have a team with 8-9 of those? All in the same pose on the same base. The dreads are not interacting with the scenic base at all, nothing is really happening with the base, there are no differences between any of them and the most obvious aspect of the base is that is it tall. The bases actually reinforce the spam aspect.

The above combines into a very negative perception before the game, which you have to fight against with your play, which possibly made you play the dreads even more to your opponent's advantage than you would have. I think you were right in stating that you should not have made those bases.

I'm wondering if the pics don't do them justice. They were quite impressively well done in person. I'm sorry to hear that they don't do it for you. The water effects they got on the bases were amazing!

I think the biggest, most obvious red flag with the codex should have been the presence of power weapons on almost all the basic infantry units in the game. Ignoring armour is *such* a big deal in every other codex, and so costly, that giving that power out to basic infantry at negligible cost, causes massive balance problems. Again it's about negating the power of other forces, notably any heavily armoured CC armies that don't come with invulnerable saves as standard, particularly if their initiative is typically less than 6 (hello, Blood Angels).

Add in the fact that they're not just power weapons but force weapons, and you negate the power of most nidzilla/chaoszilla lists too, as well as multi-wound deathstars.

Add in storm bolters everywhere and you start to outshoot most units too, particularly at that crucial 12" to 24" midrange.

I don't mind GKs being good all-rounders -- I'm just really not convinced they should be that way by negating the powers of so many other armies. The "no effect" card is always unfun.

As for codex creep -- compare Purifiers (125 pts for 5 with force weapons, extremely useful psy powers, and storm bolters) to Dark Angels Veterans (125 pts for 5 with storm bolters and... bolt pistols... or 175 pts for 5 with power swords and bolt pistols).

Strikes are really terrible in melee. Seriously. They balance their lackluster melee prowess by giving them buckets of AP4/5 shots and removing infantry access to plasma/metla.

Strikes hit, I6:
Strikes in melee get 11 attacks. 5.5 hit. 2.75 wound. Even on I6 (which you'll never see 10 strikes with halberds) that only kills 2-3 Blood Angels.

Return attack:
Assault Squad gets 12 attacks from regulars, 4 attacks from meltaguns, and then 4 attacks from the power weapon. 6 regular attacks hit and 3 wound. 1 meltagun wounds, and then 1 of the power weapon attacks wounds. GK end up losing 2, 1, and 1, on average, totaling 4 dead.

BA unit cost: 225
GK unit cost: 250

Of course, this ignores shooting, other units, and external modifiers, such as taking unit combinations no one would ever take, so like all mathhammer it's pretty much a waste of time and just intellectual masturbation.


Does anyone still play Nidzilla? I thought that was a 4th edition thing. Even then, I'd think SitW would make force weapons usually fail. At any rate, I've not found a GK problem that genestealers couldn't fix, but one think I keep learning is that my local meta does not always match the rest of the world.


I do completely agree with your codex creep comment though. Look at 4th/5th edition marine armies compared with 3rd edition DH. It happens.

Ian Sturrock wrote:I think the biggest, most obvious red flag with the codex should have been the presence of power weapons on almost all the basic infantry units in the game. Ignoring armour is *such* a big deal in every other codex, and so costly, that giving that power out to basic infantry at negligible cost, causes massive balance problems. Again it's about negating the power of other forces, notably any heavily armoured CC armies that don't come with invulnerable saves as standard, particularly if their initiative is typically less than 6 (hello, Blood Angels).

Add in the fact that they're not just power weapons but force weapons, and you negate the power of most nidzilla/chaoszilla lists too, as well as multi-wound deathstars.

Add in storm bolters everywhere and you start to outshoot most units too, particularly at that crucial 12" to 24" midrange.

I don't mind GKs being good all-rounders -- I'm just really not convinced they should be that way by negating the powers of so many other armies. The "no effect" card is always unfun.

As for codex creep -- compare Purifiers (125 pts for 5 with force weapons, extremely useful psy powers, and storm bolters) to Dark Angels Veterans (125 pts for 5 with storm bolters and... bolt pistols... or 175 pts for 5 with power swords and bolt pistols).

Mind you, I'm still firmly in the "GK are most definitely not overpowered" camp, and I believe SW's are still marginally better, GK being second, and IG/DE/BA in the third slot.

But, I'll agree with a lot of what you wrote, part of what I see the problem of GK's being is the hard counters. No army should have things that just hard counter others without being able to play around, the prime example being warp quake. Cleansing flame is similar, however it can be played around (at least they get to deploy/try to focus it down). It's part of the reason I don't play with purifiers typically, and never with warp quake.

Fortitude and psybolts should have also been optional, pricier upgrades (fortitude at ~15 points, psybolts at 15-20). This way you'd see people pay for it on dreads, raiders, ravens, but never on psybacks, and all would be right with the world. I don't think it breaks the book having it as is, but it definitely up's the ante a bit.

Mind you, I'm still firmly in the "GK are most definitely not overpowered" camp, and I believe SW's are still marginally better, GK being second, and IG/DE/BA in the third slot.

Doesn't that directly imply that they, along with the space wolves, are overpowered? When they sit at a tier above all other alternative "good" codexes I would think that the defining characteristic of that feature would be that they are overly powerful within the constraints of the modern game.

As an anecdote, I've always had a much harder time with GKs than I have with SWs, but I play space sharks via forge world + marine codex or blood sharks via blood angels. Both books have a hard time with GKs. The ability to counter the GK codex is very matchup dependent, I have an intensely difficult time with my assault themed forces and I don't have the push to take objectives from them with mixed arms or gunlines. These are not issues I've had with wolves whome I can overwhelm in melee or jam at objectives.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mind you, I'm still firmly in the "GK are most definitely not overpowered" camp, and I believe SW's are still marginally better, GK being second, and IG/DE/BA in the third slot.

Doesn't that directly imply that they, along with the space wolves, are overpowered? When they sit at a tier above all other alternative "good" codexes I would think that the defining characteristic of that feature would be that they are overly powerful within the constraints of the modern game.

The colloquial meaning of "overpowered" or "broken" is that the book is far and away better than all others, and you, if you want to be competitive, are silly not to play it. For instance, people don't complain about SW's being broken or OP. It's one thing to be the best, or one of the best, it's another to be broken/overpowered.

However, whenever you have a set of books, some will always be better than others, in this case those 5 books are better than the others, and SW/GK are top dog. But it isn't old fantasy daemon or Nidzilla levels of brokenness that the game previously experienced.

The colloquial meaning of "overpowered" or "broken" is that the book is far and away better than all others, and you, if you want to be competitive, are silly not to play it. For instance, people don't complain about SW's being broken or OP. It's one thing to be the best, or one of the best, it's another to be broken/overpowered.

They did until grey knights came along. If you take the top tier (GK, SW, IG) then there is a strong argument for a level of broken and overpowered capability among the three. Those book comprised over half of adepticon for a reason, and it's not for the interesting fluff. Taken as a whole this games top tier is overpowered. The armies that couldn't beat leafblower before (most of them) certainly can't now. The only real check on those three books most broken capabilities are those three books. That's not a healthy meta. It's getting better as ward writes more books (Necrons now counter mech IG which is nice, but a bit late) but the state of the game is as top heavy as it has been in years.

I don't put DE or BA in a tier near IG/SW/GK. Tournament results don't bear that out. They're new, but they don't have a nich and they're countered too hard by the big three. Necrons slide in ok but are far too matchup dependant to really compete either.

Necrons have been doing very well overall considering their newness. It's too early to rank them but I would definitely say they have knocked IG from the top tier (easily).

Shuma's reply above sums up my feeling on the issue almost perfectly. The top tier is almost internally balanced among itself, and that balance happens at the expense of the rest of the armies. This happens by having poorly conceived powers that require no actual decision to be used and negate enemy abilities (Warp Quake, Rune Priests, Psychostroke grenades, etc), and/or cheaply spamming metagame-gifted things (meltavets, power/force weapon spams, Long Fang spam, again Rune Priests).

DE does have that spammable quality (as Venomspam bears out), but it's too fragile for a game that will be decided ny KPs or holding objectives when faces to the steamrollers above. As for BA, I can't quite put my finger on why they don't get the same results, I admit.

Sephyr wrote:Shuma's reply above sums up my feeling on the issue almost perfectly. The top tier is almost internally balanced among itself, and that balance happens at the expense of the rest of the armies. This happens by having poorly conceived powers that require no actual decision to be used and negate enemy abilities (Warp Quake, Rune Priests, Psychostroke grenades, etc), and/or cheaply spamming metagame-gifted things (meltavets, power/force weapon spams, Long Fang spam, again Rune Priests).

DE does have that spammable quality (as Venomspam bears out), but it's too fragile for a game that will be decided ny KPs or holding objectives when faces to the steamrollers above. As for BA, I can't quite put my finger on why they don't get the same results, I admit.

Nemesis force halberds.

Target wrote:
3) "The last part is that they IMO just don't make the "rule of cool". You have a team with 8-9 of those? All in the same pose on the same base. The dreads are not interacting with the scenic base at all, nothing is really happening with the base, there are no differences between any of them and the most obvious aspect of the base is that is it tall. The bases actually reinforce the spam aspect. "

So because you feel there are too many in the army list (which you have incorrect, as you think there are double the actual number), and you personally don't like the base, you feel they don't follow the "rule of cool". The rule of cool is for conversion legality, it's "if it looks cool, it's generally acceptable". You can base your model on anything you want, it isn't a conversion. What I'm getting from your above sentence is that you have something personal against psyfle dreads, you've insulted the number and called it "spam aspect". This has nothing to do with the models. And before you insult the lack of different poses and other conversions, I'd like to see a few photos of your models, and we can see who passes the rule of cool. In tournaments and games I get about 10 compliments on the bases for every 1 "isnt that thing too tall?" comment I receive. In each army you'd play, you'd face 2 or 3 of those, not 8-9, 2 models in the same pose is too many?

Saying that rule of cool does not apply to basing miss my point, I'm not talking about any official rule of cool (didn't know it existed), my use of the expression was more aimed at the fact that you will probably get "away" with more deviance from the norm/official the cooler your model looks.

Rule of cool is of course totally subjective, which is why I said IMO. The base is a fine looking base, but they are all identical and the dreads are all placed the same way. Some variation in both the bases and the positioning of the dreads would likely help my impression of them, but I am no all-seeing judge of cool. If you get 10 to 1 in favour of cool, then they obviously they pass the cool-test and either I have a faulty view of cool or they look better in person. Regardless, I do realize it was stupid to pull in rule of cool, it was not the main point I was trying to make, and it is hard not to become defensive when some bloke on the internet criticize your work. The sculpting is top notch on the base, no question about it, so sorry about pulling in coolness.

I don't have a photo of my psyfledreads (I have three), but I use venerable dread body + autocannons from puppetswar. IMO, they look about as cool as an autocannon dread can look (if we discount painting )

Target wrote:
So, you think that because people can perceive something negatively, I shouldn't have had fun with the hobby as I enjoy it (sculpting and modelling) because other people can't be expected to be responsible, respectful adults? If you get sour before a game, without waiting to speak to your opponent about something you're not sure about before passing judgement, well...

Of course it would help a lot if you explain straight away as you pick out the models that the weapons are actually the same height as a normal model. The need to do that does highlight the real essence of my last post though: the dreads appear to be taller, being taller is an advantage = it may appear like you are modelling for advantage. People who do model for advantage are generally not great to play against = your opponent possibly believing you're not going to be fun to play.

People pre-judge other people all the time, even reasonable and respectful adults. If they have played against some asshat that actually modelled for advantage sometime before and your models appear to be modelled for advantage, then it is a natural conclusion to make that you might be an asshat and that the coming game is not going to be awesome. Of course, reasonable, respectful adults will modify this perception when you either:
A: convincingly tell them that you aren't actually gaining an advantage/that you will not use any actual advantage
B: show them that you aren't actually gaining an advantage through your game
C: show that you aren't actually an asshat as you play

However, if having to do this bothers you much, then you should not bring a conversion that appears to be gaining an advantage to a tourney IMO. You seem very aware that the dreads look taller. Claiming that nobody should judge you is like wishing for world peace, nice, but human nature means it's not going to happen. You are even judging me in your own post, adding meaning to mine that I never intended.

@Target: Thanks for coming in and talking about them. You're right, I wasn't trying to stir up crap, but wanted to make sure you got a chance to talk about it before people started the slander train.

I agree there is an optical illusion there, but I'm glad that you guys had good communication throughout the event with opponents. Thanks for the pics!

ShumaGorath wrote:

Sephyr wrote:Shuma's reply above sums up my feeling on the issue almost perfectly. The top tier is almost internally balanced among itself, and that balance happens at the expense of the rest of the armies. This happens by having poorly conceived powers that require no actual decision to be used and negate enemy abilities (Warp Quake, Rune Priests, Psychostroke grenades, etc), and/or cheaply spamming metagame-gifted things (meltavets, power/force weapon spams, Long Fang spam, again Rune Priests).

DE does have that spammable quality (as Venomspam bears out), but it's too fragile for a game that will be decided ny KPs or holding objectives when faces to the steamrollers above. As for BA, I can't quite put my finger on why they don't get the same results, I admit.

Nemesis force halberds.

That, Vindicaire Assasins, and every BA list you saw generally was built around the priests making the army strongly dependant on FNP, which the big three armies largely bypass or ignore in various ways. Add to that the fact that their ranged firepower never matched what a Long Wang spam list could put out and that their elite close combat units are either clunky or overpriced, and they are basically the Dark Angels of this edition. At least Mephiston was great for punking Orks, until GK rolled out. But basically, the BA army was built around a couple of gimmicks that the top tier could largely ignore.

Phazael wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Sephyr wrote:Shuma's reply above sums up my feeling on the issue almost perfectly. The top tier is almost internally balanced among itself, and that balance happens at the expense of the rest of the armies. This happens by having poorly conceived powers that require no actual decision to be used and negate enemy abilities (Warp Quake, Rune Priests, Psychostroke grenades, etc), and/or cheaply spamming metagame-gifted things (meltavets, power/force weapon spams, Long Fang spam, again Rune Priests).

DE does have that spammable quality (as Venomspam bears out), but it's too fragile for a game that will be decided ny KPs or holding objectives when faces to the steamrollers above. As for BA, I can't quite put my finger on why they don't get the same results, I admit.

Nemesis force halberds.

That, Vindicaire Assasins, and every BA list you saw generally was built around the priests making the army strongly dependant on FNP, which the big three armies largely bypass or ignore in various ways. Add to that the fact that their ranged firepower never matched what a Long Wang spam list could put out and that their elite close combat units are either clunky or overpriced, and they are basically the Dark Angels of this edition. At least Mephiston was great for punking Orks, until GK rolled out. But basically, the BA army was built around a couple of gimmicks that the top tier could largely ignore.

Without the sanguinary priest the BA army is really just the marine codex with slightly cheaper costing and faster vehicles. That is to say without the priests it's pretty bad. Anything that makes the priests redundant or useless turns the BAs back into a marine force based around the intensely overcosted unit knows as the "assault marine".

Phazael wrote:never matched what a Long Wang spam list could put out

Ahh, so that's why SW are popular with the ladies.

Target wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

Mind you, I'm still firmly in the "GK are most definitely not overpowered" camp, and I believe SW's are still marginally better, GK being second, and IG/DE/BA in the third slot.

Doesn't that directly imply that they, along with the space wolves, are overpowered? When they sit at a tier above all other alternative "good" codexes I would think that the defining characteristic of that feature would be that they are overly powerful within the constraints of the modern game.

The colloquial meaning of "overpowered" or "broken" is that the book is far and away better than all others, and you, if you want to be competitive, are silly not to play it. For instance, people don't complain about SW's being broken or OP. It's one thing to be the best, or one of the best, it's another to be broken/overpowered.

However, whenever you have a set of books, some will always be better than others, in this case those 5 books are better than the others, and SW/GK are top dog. But it isn't old fantasy daemon or Nidzilla levels of brokenness that the game previously experienced.

ShumaGorath wrote:

The colloquial meaning of "overpowered" or "broken" is that the book is far and away better than all others, and you, if you want to be competitive, are silly not to play it. For instance, people don't complain about SW's being broken or OP. It's one thing to be the best, or one of the best, it's another to be broken/overpowered.

Read below comments!

They did until grey knights came along. If you take the top tier (GK, SW, IG) then there is a strong argument for a level of broken and overpowered capability among the three. Those book comprised over half of adepticon for a reason, and it's not for the interesting fluff. Taken as a whole this games top tier is overpowered. The armies that couldn't beat leafblower before (most of them) certainly can't now. The only real check on those three books most broken capabilities are those three books. That's not a healthy meta. It's getting better as ward writes more books (Necrons now counter mech IG which is nice, but a bit late) but the state of the game is as top heavy as it has been in years.

I don't put DE or BA in a tier near IG/SW/GK. Tournament results don't bear that out. They're new, but they don't have a nich and they're countered too hard by the big three. Necrons slide in ok but are far too matchup dependant to really compete either.

Have you seen how well necrons have been doing lately?

-666- wrote:Necrons have been doing very well overall considering their newness. It's too early to rank them but I would definitely say they have knocked IG from the top tier (easily).

QFT! I dont know why people arent ranking necrons in that top tier. MY top 5 is as follows:

GK
SW
Necrons
IG
BA/DE

Necrons can make it night fight for your turn only. They can keep it night fight the whole game with Imohtep and hit with lightning on your side armor of 10 for IG. Necrons have seriously taken IG from the top 3. They can also hang with GK and SW just fine.

Blood Angels is IMO the best internally balanced codex put out by GW in the last decade (or at least of the 5th ed codexes) and it feels well balanced in the "meta" too.

There are some poor choices (generally inherited from codex: Space Marines), but in general, no other codex has such great balance in all their slots. Let's look at the competitive units in the BA heavy slot:
Devastators
Predators
Storm Ravens
Dreadnoughts
Vindicator

Sure, preds and devs are the most common, but the others all work just fine too although possibly in different types of lists. The whirlwind is really the only odd-man out in the BA HS slot.

The FA slot also has good competition between attack bikes, baal preds, land speeders, scout bikers and vanguard.

The weak slot is the troops section, where assault marines blow the others out of the water. GW should realize that tacticals and scouts are overpriced. Even then, assault marines can actually be fielded in different configurations, allowing for quite a bit of variation in this slot too. DC/DC dreads are not totally useless either, but you need to be prepared to argue the rage rule

I don't think the BA codex is null and void because of GK's. Purifiers might knock assault marines silly 1-on-1, but they die like marines to shooting and you can also mob them. Paladins really hate fear of the darkness and fast vehicle tank shocks and henchmen are like a better IG, but with less nasty artillery. Mephiston is probably the BA unit that took the hardest hit from GK's, but he is not all of BA and he is still far from useless even against GK.

Have you seen how well necrons have been doing lately?

Yeah, they had a seventh the showing of GKs in the top 16 at adepticon this year.

Necrons can make it night fight for your turn only. They can keep it night fight the whole game with Imohtep and hit with lightning on your side armor of 10 for IG. Necrons have seriously taken IG from the top 3. They can also hang with GK and SW just fine.

Their capabilities against GKs are overstated. Sure, the GKs can't get good use out of the psyflemen, but they're great at torrenting out wraiths and don't care at all about scarabs with their majority 24" guns. Necrons aren't a mech force so the psyfles are somewhat redundant anyway and don't really mind walking up to get into sight range. Night fights great against SW razorspam though.