Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

This may have been mentioned already, but I received an email from GW last night/this morning that the Deathstorm box set is back in stock while supplies last (U.S.).

 Crazyterran wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
It's huge to me, I want them for my tactical squads. I know, I know, "Nobody anywhere ever has any reason whatsoever to have Blood Angel tactical squads, anywhere, no reason ever"

Eh, I can see 5man heavy flamer/combi-flamer drops being not bad for a msu unit. Grav guns on tacs... Eh. If you move, it's 2 shots at 12". Only reason it's good on bikes is because it gets 3 shots at 18", and cents for obvious reasons.

No offence to you BA players, but I certainly hope you guys don't get centurions. You guys already got our guns, you don't need our brand new infantry unit too!

That, and since Space Wolves got their own space wolf version of grav, and no cents, I don't think BA will get cents. (And we'd have probably have seen red centurions in the background of some pictures on top of that, to show off new models BA players get to buy).

(That, and it's a reason to ally in Tigurius. Sure, Mephiston lifts, but Tigurius is better at lifting with his brain!)

But could Tigurus buff mephiston though, super mephiston.

 LutherMax wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Like I said before, fluff changes in a lot of universes. I've seen it in Star Wars, Batman and plenty of others. When you are saying here is not the equivalent of giving the The Penguin a new back story, but getting rid of The Penguin altogether and pretending like he didn't happen. They are completely different things.

I guffawed when I first heard the Death Company Terminator rumours, but the more I read the precedents and justifications the more I thought, "hmm, it's a stretch but maybe not a stretch so far...".

Your argument against it if I understand correctly is that they wouldn't risk valuable terminator armour on Black Enraged marines. But aren't you forgetting that these marines are still honoured and revered members of the chapter, and in some cases heroes and veterans of thousands of battles. What if a 1st company veteran succumbed and was given the honour he deserved by having his own personal suit of TDA painted black for his final battle? Then there is the practical precedent set out in the World Eater fluff where the suits can be remotely disabled, located and retrieved.

Sort of. My argument is that we play a narrative game. So whatever you can justify using some sort of narrative for yourself in order to field those units is all that's needed.

I made the suggestion of saying they fell into the black rage just as the battle was starting and paint them red since they there wasn't time to paint their armour black. Just let your opponent know and all is good since there is no restriction on how you paint your own models.

I also suggested that the books also give us examples where whole squads can fall to the black rage, although I did admit that they were always chaos manipulated, but you could come up with a narrative to explain how the whole unit fell to the black rage. Perhaps an artefact in the hands of your opponent. You can also make it into an objective game in order to retrieve the artefact.

Another idea I have is that some successor chapters consider the black rage to be their salvation. So perhaps it's not too much to theorize that they would be more likely to put their Death Company in terminator armour since they consider it a bonus rather than curse.

Personally, I just like the idea of Terminator Death Company. I think to explain it fluff wise I will the latter above and explain that my chapter thinks of the black rage as a blessing rather than a curse.

Do you really think a Death Company marine in TDA is comparable to the Penguin disappearing completely and it being pretended that he never existed? I think you're tipping the balance of the scales a bit there.

My response was mainly in relation to the suggestion that Blood Angels being rolled into the SM codex is comparable to rewriting some of the Blood Angels fluff. I think it was my mistake since now that I have re-read what I wrote it wasn't too clear what I was saying. I was just pointing out that there is a difference to rewriting some history of a story and then deleting that story altogether. Hence the reference to the Penguin in Batman. Giving him a new backstory is not the same thing as deleting him altogether and then saying to the fans that he didn't exist in the first place.

So in relation, re-writing a small bit of Blood Angels fluff is not as big of an issue as putting Blood Angels into the SM Codex and then pretending that there just like the rest of the chapters. Fans have a bigger reason to be unhappy about the latter than the former, although I do understand that some people are not going to necessarily like the former from happening, especially if it's not to their personal taste.

In short, some people are going to love the idea of Death Company terminators and some people won't. The people who don't like the idea could probably find ways around it. Either they can just not put them into their army list or come up with a different backstory for them. Perhaps they are just really zealous Blood Angels affected more by the Red Thirst rather than falling into the Black Rage.

I do like the idea of Heavy Flamers in Tactical Squads, they could be amazing dropping in a pod with a flamer, combi and HF. Alternatively, you could swap out the flamer for a Pyromancy Librarian with the primaris power for double S5 AP4 templates...

DC Termies might be cool, but with Space Hulk I have enough TDA for my BA. I just hope Sang Priests keep the Termie option, or half my conversions are useless.

I think this release, including the Codex, just shows how much Chaos needs God-specific Codex's & models.
At the mo, for example, you have Khorne Bezerkers + Kharn with a couple of universal special rules and a couple of Khorne-specific items for your Lord (oh & 1 warlord choice). & these are meant to be the most blood-thirsty warriors in the galaxy. These 'vampires' have so much love (BTW I am starting a BA army now).
SM now have: general SM's with special characters (like the CSM book but much bigger), Space Wolves, Blood Angels & Dark Angels. I call 'no fair' & will go & sulk in the corner.

Of the things C:SM have that I hope Blood Angels get are the following:
Stormtalon Gunship(for AA fire and because C:SM stole the Stormraven)
Hunter and Stalker(with Lucifer Pattern engines to boot!)
Devastator and Assault Centurions(No real reason why they shouldn't have them)
Some way to make either Assault Squads or Bike Squads troops (Assault has already happened but might be in limbo and Bike seems easy enough)

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Of the things C:SM have that I hope Blood Angels get are the following:
Stormtalon Gunship(for AA fire and because C:SM stole the Stormraven)
Hunter and Stalker(with Lucifer Pattern engines to boot!)
Devastator and Assault Centurions(No real reason why they shouldn't have them)
Some way to make either Assault Squads or Bike Squads troops (Assault has already happened but might be in limbo and Bike seems easy enough)

So basically everything except the relics and the TFC.....

I'm cool with the Talon, all SM armies have 2 flyers and it's the easy one to add to BA. No need for cents, doesn't fit their style of warfare. Hunter/Stalker should happen.

So in relation, re-writing a small bit of Blood Angels fluff is not as big of an issue as putting Blood Angels into the SM Codex and then pretending that there just like the rest of the chapters

All space marine Chapters are unique, and many are as much or even more divergent than Blood Angels - the only reason I can see to keep them as a separate Codex now is because of the investment people have made over the years - I can see no other justification when you look at other Chapters who don't get the special treatment - including other First Founding Chapters. Then you look at the other armies being ignored in favour of this.....................

I found the recent attempts to make the "special" Chapters themed very off putting when the theme is so badly (in most cases - Santa Logan for instance, bloody blood guns firing blood missiles etc) implemented.

I am hoping that book 2 of Shield Of Baal has some good formations, characters etc for Blood angels - but some Guard and Sororitas would be more welcome........

I can see BA getting access to either the stormtalon or hunter/stalker, centurions are more iffy.

Also, I think in terms of the stormtalon and hunter/stalker it will be one or the other, not both.

Personally id rather have the stormtalon.

Great more Chaos Players wanting Codex Marines + 1.

 Frankenberry wrote:
Well, there goes my Christmas money I'd saved for my family, I'm sure they'll understand.

30 bucks for a single priest though...yeeesh. For that price his FNP bubble better be 12" and is a 4+.

The rules for a figure should have no effect on its retail price. Obviously that isn't the case with GW but let's not "hope" for more of the same.

 LutherMax wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Like I said before, fluff changes in a lot of universes. I've seen it in Star Wars, Batman and plenty of others. When you are saying here is not the equivalent of giving the The Penguin a new back story, but getting rid of The Penguin altogether and pretending like he didn't happen. They are completely different things.

I guffawed when I first heard the Death Company Terminator rumours, but the more I read the precedents and justifications the more I thought, "hmm, it's a stretch but maybe not a stretch so far...".

Your argument against it if I understand correctly is that they wouldn't risk valuable terminator armour on Black Enraged marines. But aren't you forgetting that these marines are still honoured and revered members of the chapter, and in some cases heroes and veterans of thousands of battles. What if a 1st company veteran succumbed and was given the honour he deserved by having his own personal suit of TDA painted black for his final battle? Then there is the practical precedent set out in the World Eater fluff where the suits can be remotely disabled, located and retrieved.

Do you really think a Death Company marine in TDA is comparable to the Penguin disappearing completely and it being pretended that he never existed? I think you're tipping the balance of the scales a bit there.

I think he was implying that it was the examples me and other "I don't like retcons" people were putting forward that were drastic, while the DC termies are not.

And you know, he's probably right. I suppose my experience is just rather coloured by what happened to the Iron Hands; you might think these wee fluff changes are minor now, hell some of the changes might even be mistakes by authors who didn't properly check the existing source material, but always remember that if a future codex writer decides he likes that little change/mistake, you can find your favourite chapter's entire background reorganised around it in a retcon so substantial it fundamentally changes their character.

What happened with the Iron Hands?

 warboss wrote:
What happened with the Iron Hands?

I don't know exactly what Yodhrin is referring to but from what I remember they used to (in the Fluff anyway) not have a great deal of Terminator armoured marines due to the loses inflicted during Isstvaan V so they issued them to individual Veteran Sergeants who continued to serve alongside their power armoured colleagues rather than concentrating them in the 1st Company.

 Voodoo_Chile wrote:

 warboss wrote:
What happened with the Iron Hands?

I don't know exactly what Yodhrin is referring to but from what I remember they used to (in the Fluff anyway) not have a great deal of Terminator armoured marines due to the loses inflicted during Isstvaan V so they issued them to individual Veteran Sergeants who continued to serve alongside their power armoured colleagues rather than concentrating them in the 1st Company.

That concept may also be because the Iron Hands are organised around Clans rather than having a Veteran company based on merit. As such they wouldn't have a concentrated company of veterans, or rather, a clan, who can say they are superior. The Salamanders are similar but opposite in that each company comes from one of the 7 settlements of Nocturne, meaning that if you are born in the other 6 Companies you will never wear TDA. And the Sallies were badly damaged after Isstvan, so much so that Vulkan asked Guilliman to exclude them from splitting because numbers were that bad. Both are friends of the Mechanicus. Likely they have an equal supply of stuff and armour. I think its based more on ideological differences for the Iron Hands, where they believe in staying with your clan and all.

I suspect Yohdrin's referring to the fluff changes in 6th ed. C:SM and Clan Raukaan supplement.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LutherMax wrote:
The priest kit / blister is perfect for kitbash / conversion. I'm pretty sure that was the intention.

Not really. The single-frame plastic characters generally go together in a very specific way with little room for variation. They occasionally have options, or are put together in a way that allows some changes (like a different shoulder pad), but otherwise they require a lot of chopping and changing to make them into something else. They aren't just regular Marines that can be combined with the standard kit.

Dragongaze, on the other hand, was a kitbasher's dream. I guess it just depends.

Iron Hands could make their own terminator armour if they wished. Being best buds with the cogs and all..

I wonder if Sanguinary Priests will remain as Elites or if they will get unslotted like Techmarines.

 Theduke07 wrote:
Great more Chaos Players wanting Codex Marines + 1.

They have a legitimate reason to be irritated. Not only does the CSM codex suck unprecedented levels of donkeyballs, but compared to the loyalist marines and their spin-offs - CSM options are insulting.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wonder if Sanguinary Priests will remain as Elites or if they will get unslotted like Techmarines.

Or both. Like if you take a High Priest HQ you get regular priests without slots. I don't play regular marines but IIRC doesn't the MOTF have a similar relationship with the techmarines?

 warboss wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I wonder if Sanguinary Priests will remain as Elites or if they will get unslotted like Techmarines.

Or both. Like if you take a High Priest HQ you get regular priests without slots. I don't play regular marines but IIRC doesn't the MOTF have a similar relationship with the techmarines?

pretty much. I could also see Chaplains behaving in much the same manner with Reclusiarchs.

 Mr Morden wrote:

So in relation, re-writing a small bit of Blood Angels fluff is not as big of an issue as putting Blood Angels into the SM Codex and then pretending that there just like the rest of the chapters

All space marine Chapters are unique, and many are as much or even more divergent than Blood Angels - the only reason I can see to keep them as a separate Codex now is because of the investment people have made over the years - I can see no other justification when you look at other Chapters who don't get the special treatment - including other First Founding Chapters. Then you look at the other armies being ignored in favour of this.....................

I'm all in favour of branching the other chapters out. It's my opinion that Forge World should be picking up on these kind of things like a Salamander codex or even a Choas: Khorne Codex for the Chaos marines.

I found the recent attempts to make the "special" Chapters themed very off putting when the theme is so badly (in most cases - Santa Logan for instance, bloody blood guns firing blood missiles etc) implemented.

Logan's bad fluff is very recent though. Space Wolf fluff before that was just fine.

I am hoping that book 2 of Shield Of Baal has some good formations, characters etc for Blood angels - but some Guard and Sororitas would be more welcome........

Hopefully Sisters player will get something good. I agree that they need to get an update and we needed this update as well.

sand.zzz wrote:
They have a legitimate reason to be irritated. Not only does the CSM codex suck unprecedented levels of donkeyballs, but compared to the loyalist marines and their spin-offs - CSM options are insulting.

Is it a legitimate reason? Sure... but so is complaining that the night is dark if you stub your toe. Chaos simply has for almost all of its history as an independent codex been relatively lackluster. The only exception to that in almost 25 years was a maybe 2-3 year period where they had the most broken and unbalanced codex of 3rd edition. That was the time of the "hallowed" legion codex. In the end, you now have Forgeworld to satisfy your legion specific needs with enough flavor to satisfy dozens of southeast asian foodies and enough options to make a Vogen take notice. Combine that with daemon allies if you want to go the corrupted route and you have the best answer you're going to get for the foreseeable future. Complaining about something off topic that will likely never change in the Blood Angel thread accomplishes nothing.

 sockwithaticket wrote:
I suspect Yohdrin's referring to the fluff changes in 6th ed. C:SM and Clan Raukaan supplement.

I am indeed. They took a chapter with as much organisational uniqueness as the Space Wolves and a backstory hook at least as characterful and tragic as the Blood Angels, and turned them into a baseline Codex chapter of Spock Marines that disdain their own Primarch, and it largely seems to have happened because GW didn't want to do another distinct sub-codex and Ward mistakenly referred to the "Iron Hands Chapter Master" in the 5th Edition C:SM. So yeah, I'm not claiming Death Company Terminators is the ruination of the Blood Angels fluff, I'm just saying don't be too eager to see GW mess around with the fluff of your favourite chapter even on a small scale, because down the line it only takes one idiot writer to rework their entire background around that single change.

Why is it that any thread talking about Blood Angels inevitably includes conversations about how they shouldnt have a book of their own? One of the oldest chapters, who have been around since 2nd edition, have a divergent gene seed, their own technology, and a very hefty flaw TOTALLY dont need a book. So please take the "zomg BA are stoopid and dont need gak so update me kaos" somewhere else.

I know I'm a week away from real information but I'm so impatient!!!!!! I keep checking back even though I know it's going to be random mutterings (like this one) till probably next monday/tuesday

I don`t see the issue with chaos players moaning. I am a chaos player. Do I use the dex god no. It is awful. What do I use well I use the space marine books you may not get daemon engines but no major loss and you get chapter tactics that fit with legions, better oblits, better leaders etc. Job done.

Death company terminators honestly if they are there ok if not I still would like a new blood angel specific terminator kit no matter what they do

 Hulksmash wrote:
I know I'm a week away from real information but I'm so impatient!!!!!! I keep checking back even though I know it's going to be random mutterings (like this one) till probably next monday/tuesday

Same here, I'm stoked! Went ahead and got a Deathstorm, now for the tactical squads and Codex.

i went ahead and got a Chaos Codex during the wait, I would get into Chaos but the godawful figures! Chaos Terminators, and Spce Marines kill it for me. However the Chosen models in the Dark Vengeance set are amazingly detailed up! I was working on my set last night, it's a shame the rest of Chaos Space Marines don't look the same. That being said I'm just mentioning this because it's just another army that needs an updated.

Sanguinary Priest to HQ. Cobulo removed.

FNP lowered to 6+ and model based, not unit based for the aura.