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Leo_the_Rat wrote: Xenomancer - you keep saying "if used with an IG army", this is the GK tactic thread therefore the presumption is that a person wants to use a mono GK army.
That aside you can do better than Crowe for the points invested in him. For 1 point more you can get a squad of 6 strike members all with storm bolters and falchions. That nets you 24 shots and 13 melee attacks. Plus you may be able to smite twice which means that while you lose, on average, 1.5 damage via smite you'll more than make it up in wounds from your other weapons and you'll have more wounds.
I think most people would agree that you would be better off spending a few extra points for Brother-Captain than Crowe (152 for Capt w bolter vs 125 for Crowe).
A dude asked for suggestions on adding GK to his IG army.
I suggested a brother captain first(third) (actually I suggested a GMDK and Voldus first) and as a possible cheaper option crowe. Yeah - he is totally better. He also costs an additional 50 points after you give him a hammer and a psilencer.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2018/09/13 18:31:52
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Thoughts on the FW land raider? It seems kind of bad. As in 'why would you ever take it over the other land raiders available' kind of bad.
The achillies is 19 wounds 4++ and can shoot in combat. It's not cheap though - but it has great weapons. It's still too expensive.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
I like the strong preference to GK in specificity in this thread, but to not assume allies seems odd. One would think a tactics thread would be the very place to discuss allies as benefitting GK. Most other tacticas feature allies heavily in discussion once the codex is meted out. The 'standard list' in the Mechanicus tactica is AM, IG, and your flavor of BA or IK. I'm sure I'm not the only guy that likes tossing in a battalion of the loyal 32, or inquisitorial storm troopers, or admech (Deimos!) for fluffy support and more CP, or a detachment of armigers and their Knight.
The CP battery is a thing and is quite useful to GK. IG are relevant in any competitive discussion as a cheap battalion adds so much to any imperial force and GK can be CP hungry. I'm not sold on Crowe as as a countercharger with a gunline, but the choice makes sense. I too think we have better options.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/09/14 17:09:30
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Thoughts on the FW land raider? It seems kind of bad. As in 'why would you ever take it over the other land raiders available' kind of bad.
The achillies is 19 wounds 4++ and can shoot in combat. It's not cheap though - but it has great weapons. It's still too expensive.
I meant the Vortimer Pattern GK specific land raider.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
undertow wrote: I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
Troops
2x 5 man GKSS (Psycannon, Halberds)
1x 5 man Terminators (Psilencer, Halberds)
FA:
1x 10 man Interceptor
AM Battalion:
HQ:
2x Company Commander
Troops:
3x Infantry Squad (Lascannon team)
Heavy Support:
2x Leman Russ
2000 point limit. I've got about 50 points to play with, so I think I can put some hammers on infantry, or add weapons to the Leman Russ tanks.
Thoughts?
Take a Tank Commander instead of a second foot commander. Then both your tanks will be more effective. Giving Orders to the Loyal 32 is mostly useless anyhow.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Paladins are marginally better than Termies, point for point, but still worse than PAGK. You get more shooting from the PAGK, which is what GK are best at, and you get more Smites bc more units.
Drop the Pallies and instead take GKI with Falchions.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
undertow wrote: I'm going to a tournament in a couple of weeks. My choices are driven mostly by what I have available. 1 have exactly 20 PAGK models, 10 of them have interceptor backpacks. This is what I'm bringing:
Troops
2x 5 man GKSS (Psycannon, Halberds)
1x 5 man Terminators (Psilencer, Halberds)
FA:
1x 10 man Interceptor
AM Battalion:
HQ:
2x Company Commander
Troops:
3x Infantry Squad (Lascannon team)
Heavy Support:
2x Leman Russ
2000 point limit. I've got about 50 points to play with, so I think I can put some hammers on infantry, or add weapons to the Leman Russ tanks.
Thoughts?
Take a Tank Commander instead of a second foot commander. Then both your tanks will be more effective. Giving Orders to the Loyal 32 is mostly useless anyhow.
Worth it to take Pask instead of a Tank Commander? The extra BS for a marginal point increase seems worth it.
Check out my list building app for 40K and Fantasy:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/576793.page
Brother Payne wrote: Best GKHQ to compliment PAGK? (Other than GMDK, but let me know if you think that is the best option too).
It is the best option honestly. You certainly need some source of rerolls to get your value out of your mandatory HQ choice. Anything else is just losing out on essential bodies without any significant gain in effectiveness.
If you don't wanna go GMDK, go for Voldus, Draigo, or a regular Terminator GM (probably in that order).
Honorable mention to the Brotherhood Champion, simply for being a relatively effective choice in close combat while also being the cheapest way to fill the HQ slot.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Brother Payne wrote: Best GKHQ to compliment PAGK? (Other than GMDK, but let me know if you think that is the best option too).
It is the best option honestly. You certainly need some source of rerolls to get your value out of your mandatory HQ choice. Anything else is just losing out on essential bodies without any significant gain in effectiveness.
If you don't wanna go GMDK, go for Voldus, Draigo, or a regular Terminator GM (probably in that order).
Honorable mention to the Brotherhood Champion, simply for being a relatively effective choice in close combat while also being the cheapest way to fill the HQ slot.
I was thinking about keeping it cheap with the Brotherhood Champ, but Voldus looks good. I'll see what the points are looking like once I've shaped up the rest of the list. Thanks
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Yep this is true. In my gaming group we don't play with Beta rules but if it becomes a legit rule I would have to make some modifications.
The list has changed already so Dropped Draigo, Apothecary and the Doomglaive. Added Voldus, Ven Dread with Lascannon/Autocannon and 2 more Paladins. Or something along those lines. Trying to recall from memory.
Grand Master in Nemesis Dreadknight [14 PL, 285pts]: 4: First to the Fray, Astral Aim, Dreadfist, Dreadknight teleporter, Gate of Infinity, Gatling Psilencer, Heavy Psycannon, Nemesis Greatsword, Warlord
Lord Kaldor Draigo [12 PL, 240pts]: Hammerhand, Purge Soul
Razorbacks w/5 Man strikes and Doomglaive start on board. Turn 2 DS with everything else and gate from the Doomglaive should provide an effective alpha/beta strike.
Draigo, Apoth and Paladins do their usual work. 10 Man strike Squad with Strategem to "heavy bolster" the crap out of something.
Trying to avoid adding the guard CP Battery with anticipation something happens to it with the next Faq.
Beta reinforcement rules mean that at least half your Power Level have to start on the table...
Yep this is true. In my gaming group we don't play with Beta rules but if it becomes a legit rule I would have to make some modifications.
The list has changed already so Dropped Draigo, Apothecary and the Doomglaive. Added Voldus, Ven Dread with Lascannon/Autocannon and 2 more Paladins. Or something along those lines. Trying to recall from memory.
Not a beta rule anymore. Only Half points stay in reserve.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
So ... the Big FAQ 2 is a Big Let Down part 2, nothing that addresses GK issues.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
jeffersonian000 wrote: So ... the Big FAQ 2 is a Big Let Down part 2, nothing that addresses GK issues.
SJ
Agree, we came across no better or worse. Still bottom of the pack. If the chapter approved doesn't give gk some love, then I may be done with this hobby for a while.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Does anyone know if there are any people at GW who actually care about GK, and how to contact those people? I tried sending some questions to the FAQ team, but all I get is an automatic mail response, which means they never get read.
Or maybe there are some people in UK that know those people working at GW on GK rules, and can ask them to write something. People could even start some sort of patron to just pay the designers to write a good FAQ.
Also from what people told me books like the CA are done 3-6 months in advance, so if the book is suppose to go to sale in december the window to change the designers minds is really small. It maybe like days, before it goes in to final print version. And when that happens we may as well start waiting for the 2019 CA to fix our stuff.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
GW is very aware of the negative feedback from the GK player community. Unfortunately, they don’t seem to care enough to give us any reason to not continue to complain. It has been a long known fact that GW does not discuss changes until a product is already in the pipeline and ready to distribute. The silence we are experiencing is quite telling.
SJ
“For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world.”
- Ephesians 6:12
Aha, that is kind of a bad. So when do GK will have a chance to get updated rules? If they did nothing in the FAQ, the chance is that the CA will be just as bad. Next edition or 2019 CA?
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Karol wrote: Aha, that is kind of a bad. So when do GK will have a chance to get updated rules? If they did nothing in the FAQ, the chance is that the CA will be just as bad. Next edition or 2019 CA?
Chapter approved has points changes, so there is a chance there and Sisters are getting a beta codex so maybe we'll get some rules?
Overall the FAQ helped us in one way: giving us another way to spend our precious few command points for 2+ saves on all our guys waiting on turn 2 to jump across the board. Really though I'm hoping we get a special rule enabling us (and only us) to drop in turn 1 again. It might make sense to run almost purely interceptors now, especially since there is no more gray area with Gate or Shunt letting us get into opponent's deployment zones.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
TheMostWize wrote: Is thw strat determined on dice roll? Just pick to go second. And hide everything.
My 2k army has 11 5-man squads in it, plus 3 HQs. It’s not a guaranteed thing at all to win the roll.
There is never enough LOS blocking terrain to hide everything, especially with half the army needing to be on the table and GMDKs being kind of large. And even if you could, there is still stuff that ignores LOS or is fast enough to get around it that you need some durability in addition.
Edit: Actually this has been annoying me so much I need to address it - it’s very hard to hide your entire army, even if it’s just infantry. It’s hard to estimate exactly how close you can pack bases, so for a 20mm base we’ll average a square footprint (0.62 square inches) and a circular one (0.48 square inches). Ignoring height considerations, a 5-man squad needs 2.5 square inches of LOS blocking at a minimum. If you have 5 squads out, you need 12.5 square inches of 100% LOS blocking for just a few infantry. And by 100% LOS blocking, I mean it can’t have any gaps or an angle someone can peek around. Depending on what you take GK might have a chance if there’s a bunch of multilevel ruins (angled away from the enemy) but for a lot of other armies there simply isn’t enough. And if you have high-value units like GMDKs which are actually bigger/taller, then the premium terrain is going to get taken up by them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/01 16:17:19
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
So, my primary army and first love is Grey Knights. But for a while now I've been using my secondary army, Tzeentch. My favourite model is my Lord of Change, the Creature Caster Vulture. I have been using him at the tip of a Daemon Prince spear to screen the rest of my army, with a 2++ and -1D trait. And with +2 DtW, he resists mortals pretty well also. He's insanely survivable. He is also 320pts, has minimal damage output, and really is there solely to soak damage. Any wounds he gives out are considered a bonus in my strategy. I have other ways of dealing damage.
(Now, the recent FAQ changed that a bit, which I'm salty about. It was an unnecessary nerf to a mid-tier army. But that's beside the point here.)
"Well Greywolf," you may be asking yourself, "why are you talking about Chaos in the purest of the pure thread?" Because, random dakkite, I have come to greatly appreciate the value of a single 2++ monster. It's huge. It swings games. It's the lynchpin. So while I've been thinking about this sad loss of my 2++, and how much I wished I had it back, I played a game with my GK. You might see where this is going
Yesterday I played a team game at my GWLGS, using my Grey Knights for the first time in months. I always play casual at the GW store, and save my competitive streak for tournaments and tournament practice games. So I built a casual 1000pt list. My usual team 1000pt list is 3 GMDKs with a Hammer Apothecary. Pretty easy and fun to play, they usually all die horrible deaths. Two of them have a 3++, one has a 4++, and they slowly get focus-fired to death. But I wanted to try something different.
Lists
Spoiler:
I brought:
Loyal 32 battalion (with a mortar in each squad) (and the Aquila)
GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer
1x5 and 2x6 GKI Falchions (Hammerhand, Vortex, Gate)
Apothecary, Soul Glaive
My teammate had:
Space Wolves Battalion
Wolf Lord Power Armour Hammer Shield
Rune Priest
10x Grey Hunters with loads of special weapons
2x5 Grey Hunters with loads of special weapons
5x puppies
3x Thunderwolf (1 chainsword, one frost axe on sgt, one th/ss NOT ON SGT)
5x Termies with a mix of melee and an assault cannon.
My opponents had Tau and Custodes/IK. I realised this would be a short game, and that, as usual, GK would lose horribly.
Tau Battalion:
2x Coldstar fusion
Fireblade
3x5 Fire Warriors
5x Pathfinders
~20 Shield Drones in two units
Ion Riptide
IK Superheavy:
Crusader with BC and Gatling relic
2x melta Armigers
Custodes Auxiliary: 3x Hurricane bikes
So as you can see, each team has unoptimized stuff. SW player was REALLY noob, which I don't have a problem with in casual games, and ofc I tried giving him some pointers and list-building tips. I think he will take my advice to PUT THE THUNDER HAMMER ON THE SERGEANT!!!
We played the BRB bases mission, which boils down to "Kill everything, then scurry for the objective!" We lost 1st turn.
I won't give a full battle report, because that's not the point of this post. I put the lists up to show you what I was facing, and what I had to tank against.
I started with all my models on the board, with the GKI hidden behind ruins and GW, and the GMDK at literally the very back corner of the board to be as non-threatening as possible.
I took a few PAGK casualties on T1, while SW got the brunt, all his Power Armour died.
Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I understand that his damage output here is above average, but the 2++ save is very reliable.
Throughout the game, he took a whole round of Crusader shooting (admittedly it was hitting on 5s), the Riptide, two rounds of 8x Coldstar meltas shooting, and some Fire Warrior shooting. He survived three rounds of combat with the Custodes, killing two of them.
We ended up tabling the enemy. The GMDK was dead at the end of that, but he soaked SO MUCH FIREPOWER.
I know that tradition here is to take as many of our best thing as possible. But I would encourage you to consider a single GMDK for your Daemonhunter contingent.
Here's the list I'm going to be trying out:
Spoiler:
GK Outrider GMDK, psilencer, psycannon, hammer (Sanctuary)
Voldus (Astral, Sanctuary, Vortex)
3x5 GKI (Hammerhand, Gate, Vortex)
Guard Battalion Loyal 32
IK Super Heavy, House Vulker Helverin
Helverin
Castellan, Cawl's Wrath
The GMDK will attract lots of the shooting, and will try and suicide gloriously. Hopefully this will distract from the Dominus, who regardless of damage suffered will always be shooting at top-tier thanks to a stratagem.
As soon as I can afford the Helverins, I'm definitely feeling excited to try this out!
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
Something I just realized from another thread...interceptors don’t have fly, but personal teleporters enable them to move over models and terrain...which means we should be able to assault over units, right? I guess it depends if “move” applies to a specific phase or movement in general.
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
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