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 gorgon wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

 gorgon wrote:


But sure, it's much more realistic that a farmboy who can fly a futuristic cropduster can become an expert spaceship dogfighter overnight. If one believes that the Force is making that happen for Luke, then why the outrage over it granting abilities to Rey?

In ANH we get:

1. exposition from multiple people that Luke's a good pilot (obi wan, biggs).
2. exposition from obi-wan that Luke's father was a good pilot
3. Luke being visibly unimpressed with the difficulty of the shot based on his own piloting.

Do you genuinely think that Luke shooting a critter from his small aircraft is equivalent to a space battle with enemy professional fighter pilots and ground emplacements, while racing at the target at spaceship speed? That line is meant to show Luke's naivete.

Regarding the establishment of Luke as a good pilot, there are lots of great civilian pilots IRL who in no way would be able to hold their own in *air combat*. What's more, one actually needs to some familiarity with a given aircraft to fly it effectively. And what we're looking at in ANH isn't going from one plane to another, but from an aircraft to a spaceship. Even if the Force is involved, the scenario is utterly ridiculous, and much less realistic than someone already skilled in close combat fighting well under a Force boost.

So it's apparently one set of rules for Luke, and another for Rey.

FIne, you win, they're both mary sue. Happy now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It would be SO AWESOME if Rey crafted a unicorn light sabre.

You mean like a light saber sticking out of her head? That would be pretty cool.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
A Protagonist Jedi wielding a double bladed light saber would be pretty cool to see, something we haven't seen since Darth Maul, a villain and Sith.

I agree. Considering Rey is proficient with a staff, I'd actually be disappointed if she didn't craft a dual bladed saber. She can incorporate her current staff and the pieces of Luke/Anakin's broken light saber.
It might even be neat if she found Luke's green light saber and had a half blue, half green staff saber, but that's probably too far into fanboy wishlisting

Dare to dream! A bi colored saber staff would look friggen amazing.

she said she wanted a pink and sparkly one, if she get's it I'll walk out of that movie.

she said she wanted a pink and sparkly one, if she get's it I'll walk out of that movie.

Eh, still better then the Lightsaber Whip idea that came from the old EU.

 Scrabb wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Also not only does she win her fight easily against the most elite guards in the universe, she saves emo who lost against them.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I agree with the broad strokes of your argument. But Rey fought fewer guards than Kylo and visibly struggled against her last adversary. When you make false claims you invalidate your own argument, even if it is a strong argument.

*waiting for someone to correct one of my posts in 3, 2, 1....*

keep waiting, It's not worth my time to rewatch the movie just to count who fought more guards. struggling in star wars means losing a hard, or an arm, coming out unscathed is winning easily.

A pink Neon light saber would actually look really good as long as it didn't drop fairy sparkles or something.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Disney knows how to make money man...How many of you people that didn't like the movie saw it twice? My 2 best friends both did and several in this thread. Starwars is automatic money.

And didn't the first one make double the BO bank on franchising or something like that?

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
And didn't the first one make double the BO bank on franchising or something like that?

ANH is the 3rd highest grossing movie of all time. Made around 3 billion dollars when inflation is applied.

Gone with the wind #1 ????? before my time - has a guy names Clark Gable in it (I know who that is)
Avatar #2 ( First film to really be made for 3d...no suprise)

Starwars merchandice has made something like 32 billion total.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Also not only does she win her fight easily against the most elite guards in the universe, she saves emo who lost against them.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here. I agree with the broad strokes of your argument. But Rey fought fewer guards than Kylo and visibly struggled against her last adversary. When you make false claims you invalidate your own argument, even if it is a strong argument.

*waiting for someone to correct one of my posts in 3, 2, 1....*

keep waiting, It's not worth my time to rewatch the movie just to count who fought more guards. struggling in star wars means losing a hard, or an arm, coming out unscathed is winning easily.

No worries mate. That wasn't a challenge to you. I was just preparing for foot in mouth syndrome.

 insaniak wrote:
While a staff would make sense for her, I can't help but wonder if breaking Luke's saber (and the resultant damage to the crystal in it) is setting her up for a blue version of Kylo's messy-bladed saber, to keep the whole mirror-image thing going.

That would be pretty cool.

 Manchu wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
While a staff would make sense for her, I can't help but wonder if breaking Luke's saber (and the resultant damage to the crystal in it) is setting her up for a blue version of Kylo's messy-bladed saber, to keep the whole mirror-image thing going.

That would be pretty cool.

Actually, I kinda hope not. Kylo's saber is messy specifically to symbolize his conflicted nature. I actually hope he gets a traditional solid saber in IX to symbolize his new resolve as Supreme leader.

But yeah, Rey needs a staff lgihtsaber combo AT MINIMUM. Double bladed if possible and bi-color green & blue.

-

Why are people referring to it as a 'messy saber?' It's clearly designed to ape a basic cruciform sword.

Messy in reference to the jagged, fluctuating blade. In Rebels you see a similar design but with a stable blade, which is presumably what Ren's would look like if he knew how to actually build one...


@Galef: My bet is on Ren getting both a new saber and a new set of Vader-esque armour for IX, and I'd love to see a staff for Rey. Preferably single-ended and blue, and in a perfect world built into her existing staff to symbolism her old and new lives coming together. I reckon a double-colour one would look a little naff, but each to their own.

Ren's saber being all crackly is due to him using a cracked crystal in its construction. (illustrated dictionary for TFA)

I'm assuming he didn't have access to a proper crystal (given how the Empire did mine Illum (it was under embargo and imperial blockade after the clone wars to harvest the crystals for the DS superlasers and all.) and Luke didn't know about the place since he didn't get proper temple schooling and all.

Luke built his own saber from Kenobi's spare parts on Tattooine (deleted scene from ROTJ) - it's not like he ventured to illum to get a fresh one.

 chromedog wrote:
Luke built his own saber from Kenobi's spare parts on Tattooine (deleted scene from ROTJ) - it's not like he ventured to illum to get a fresh one.

This is the basis for the fan theory that Luke's green crystal is the same as Qui-Gon's, because Obi-wan may have had it in his hut on Tattooine.
If true, and Rey somehow incorporates Luke's green saber, THAT would be the oldest "light saber" we've seen on screen. But I doubt that would happen.

A single bladed blue light "staff" is the bare minimum that NEEDS to happen for Rey in IX. She could still use it as a traditional staff for non-lethal defence and activate the blue blade when needed to fight Kylo. As you mention, it would be the perfect combination of her old and new lives and kinda appropriate for the new generation of Jedi.

-

 Galef wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Luke built his own saber from Kenobi's spare parts on Tattooine (deleted scene from ROTJ) - it's not like he ventured to illum to get a fresh one.

This is the basis for the fan theory that Luke's green crystal is the same as Qui-Gon's, because Obi-wan may have had it in his hut on Tattooine.
-

Not sure where that theory came from... Luke used an artificial crystal that he made himself.

Although that was explained in Shadows of the Empire (not sure where else it was mentioned) so may not still be cannon.

 insaniak wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 chromedog wrote:
Luke built his own saber from Kenobi's spare parts on Tattooine (deleted scene from ROTJ) - it's not like he ventured to illum to get a fresh one.

This is the basis for the fan theory that Luke's green crystal is the same as Qui-Gon's, because Obi-wan may have had it in his hut on Tattooine.
-

Not sure where that theory came from... Luke used an artificial crystal that he made himself.

Although that was explained in Shadows of the Empire (not sure where else it was mentioned) so may not still be cannon.

If that is from SotE, than it is most definitely NOT canon any longer. Everything written prior to Disney owning Lucasfilm is not canon.

The theory comes from the lack of canon info available. Obi-wan likely still had Qui-Gon's lightsaber and Luke built his lightsaber from parts from Obi-wan's Hut (deleted RotJ scene has him putting the final adjustments to his light saber on Tattooine). So it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Lukes used the crystal from Qui-Gon's saber

-

 Galef wrote:

If that is from SotE, than it is most definitely NOT canon any longer. Everything written prior to Disney owning Lucasfilm is not canon.

Yes, I'm aware of the nuking of the EU. More specifically, though, in the absence of any other information, it's not necessarily not still canon. I'm fairly sure that SotE wasn't the only place it was mentioned, and IIRC the scene in SotE is basically just a slight re-write of a deleted scene from the opening of RotJ. So it remains to be seen whether they choose to stick with that story or come up with a different backstory for Luke's second saber. And, really, the fact that the saber was constructed from parts left in Kenobi's home comes from the same place...

The theory comes from the lack of canon info available. Obi-wan likely still had Qui-Gon's lightsaber and Luke built his lightsaber from parts from Obi-wan's Hut (deleted RotJ scene has him putting the final adjustments to his light saber on Tattooine). So it wouldn't be a stretch to think that Lukes used the crystal from Qui-Gon's saber
-

Obi Wan may have still had Qui Gon's lightsaber in his possession at the time of Order 66, but he almost certainly wasn't carrying it around with him. So unless he snuck back to the temple on Coruscant to collect his belongings after dropping Luke on Tattooine, it seems extremely unlikely that he would have had it during his exile.

 gorgon wrote:


Do you genuinely think that Luke shooting a critter from his small aircraft is equivalent to a space battle with enemy professional fighter pilots and ground emplacements, while racing at the target at spaceship speed? That line is meant to show Luke's naivete.

You frame the question well if you want what Luke does to look impossible. But I honestly think it is easier to hit the stationary target with the military grade navicomputer than the moving target of equal size from a 'cropduster.'

I think that line is meant to show Luke's experience blasting difficult targets and the one guy who thought the shot too difficult was meant to be viewed as a naysayer. Certainly came off as such to me. Look, one of the other rebel pilots, Biggs Darklighter (Or Red Three if you like) grew up with Luke. He's one of the friends Luke had that moved on to bigger and better things. He came from the same exact humble beginnings as Luke and made it as a military pilot without force powers. Luke got personal coaching from Ben as he took the shot.

Yes, there's no substitute for an actual fight, but ANH does a great deal better establishing familiarity before achievement for Luke than for Rey. I believe it's fairly obvious when the contents of the movies are examined.

Regarding the establishment of Luke as a good pilot, there are lots of great civilian pilots IRL who in no way would be able to hold their own in *air combat*. What's more, one actually needs to some familiarity with a given aircraft to fly it effectively. And what we're looking at in ANH isn't going from one plane to another, but from an aircraft to a spaceship.

I believe Luke's ship was space capable.

Even if the Force is involved, the scenario is utterly ridiculous, and much less realistic than someone already skilled in close combat fighting well under a Force boost.

You believe Luke surviving a dogfight in space is utterly ridiculous even after involving the force? We see things so differently. I'd have believed that sequence without the force for Luke, and we get better exploits than that from Poe in the new installments without force sensitivity.

So it's apparently one set of rules for Luke, and another for Rey.

I agree with you, but the other way round from where you see it. Rey just does more. It's not even one of the things that bothers me about TLJ, but I definitely think Luke had it harder than Rey getting to where he ended up.

Which is to say, he ended up getting bitchslapped around by Rey because she wouldn't accept his lies and decided she was going to beat the crap out of him until he admitted his deepest darkest secrets to her.




Edit: You know what? No. You are being absolutely ridiculous. In TFA Rey is the one who outmaneuvers "enemy professional fighter pilots" in the ship she did mechanical work on and lines up a shot for a fixed point turret. In TLJ Rey shoots three ties with her opening salvo from said turrets in her first shot and exclaims "this is fun!" This Millennium Falcon turret shot scene is the very next scene she is in after her force pull duel with Kylo Ren. The Falcon then draws off the entire FO fighter cadre because Kylo is emotionally compromised and kills them all. Rey then uses the force to open up the back door of mountain and saves everyone. Only then do we get a dramatic stare down between Rey and Kylo in their weird force link (So the Light side is trying to seduce the dark side now? Or vice versa? Since the force always has a balance rise up per snoke or whatever) But we still don't know how Rey feels about these developments! She was super chipper when killing FO dudes so can't have been terribly affected by Kylo's refusal to give up the FO's murderous ways.... Or maybe she is torn. Does she still think he can be redeemed? Does she want to kill him now just like Luke did? Was Luke right at first? Or later on when he decided to sacrifice himself to buy hope for the Resistance? Hope that is spreading through a LIE that he (Luke) actually went toe to toe with the new AT-AT variants and the dark knight Kylo Ren? He's perpetuating the same myths he despised after falling from grace. He never passed on his failure, the great teacher (according to Yoda) so the galaxy is just going to repeat it all again.

This movie can't find it's own backside to pat itself on the back for how clever it is. It is a shambles. We get a dramatic shot of resistance troopers lining up the salt trenches just like ESB. But they don't do anything at all and run away but magically don't make it to the Falcon despite not dying at any point.

Finn and Rose randomly go everywhere without harm. From the middle of the FO fleet Rose flies them to safety, then strands them on foot closer to the FO troops than the base gate by crashing into Finn's scrapper because you can't win by killing what you hate, because Finn was totally motivated by hatred there and not, y'know belief in the cause Rose instilled in him. No worries, they outrun the FO to the door a second time on foot.

Dumb, dumb, dumb. Everything you examine closely falls apart. And Luke Skywalker surviving a space battle is ridiculous? You Must think Star Wars a whole fundamentally ridiculous.

*You must think Star Wars as a whole is fundamentally ridiculous*

 Kilkrazy wrote:
They haven't mirrored Luke and that seems to be what people are complaining about.

I think you've mistaken people explaining they don't like Rey because of lack of character development then using Luke as an example of character development.

Not that they want Rey to mirror Luke.

We could use characters from hundreds of other films to demonstrate the same thing.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Many TV series, like game of thrones, have multiple directors and manage just fine to stay cohesive.

Game of Thrones has failed to do this. It did pretty well while it was guided by the novels (written by a single author), but once it went off the rails laid down by George Martin, the plot nosedived.

 Scrabb wrote:
*You must think Star Wars as a whole is fundamentally ridiculous*

Well... yes, but that's all fiction in general so I kind of got over it a long time ago

 AlexHolker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Many TV series, like game of thrones, have multiple directors and manage just fine to stay cohesive.

Game of Thrones has failed to do this. It did pretty well while it was guided by the novels (written by a single author), but once it went off the rails laid down by George Martin, the plot nosedived.

I agree it hasn't been as good since they lost the novels for guidance, but IMO it's still relatively cohesive and feels like it's progressing rather than just building up and burning down the story from one director to the next. Certainly when compared to TFA and TLJ.

I think having different directors can be good for giving films in a series a different feel, but with JJ and Johnson it doesn't even feel like they're travelling to the same destination let alone being on the same road.

I saw Kevin Smith's review of TLJ and he described it as "feth you JJ" moments, of course Kevin Smith loved it (and I don't expect him to hate on it given from what I understand he knows the directors personally, and he's the sort of guy who seems to like everything anyway) but to me there's too many "feth you JJ" moments in TLJ for its own good.

 AlexHolker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Many TV series, like game of thrones, have multiple directors and manage just fine to stay cohesive.

Game of Thrones has failed to do this. It did pretty well while it was guided by the novels (written by a single author), but once it went off the rails laid down by George Martin, the plot nosedived.

That's hilarious - the novels fell off the rails and became turgid nonsense about half way through - the show is not perfect but its a million times better than the books at this point.

 AlexHolker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Many TV series, like game of thrones, have multiple directors and manage just fine to stay cohesive.

Game of Thrones has failed to do this. It did pretty well while it was guided by the novels (written by a single author), but once it went off the rails laid down by George Martin, the plot nosedived.

The problem with GoT the series is that they have to compress remaining ~2 books to 13 episodes. They have to make massive quantum leaps to conclude the story.

Although, some of the storylines written for the show are really bad, it's true. Dorne storyline was at least moderately interesting in the books, but awful in the series. Lets not even mention shows almost comical relying on 'surprise stabbings'. Like five major characters have been killed by "two people talking blah blah - then one suddenly stabs the another" - a "really shocking new plot twist". Yawn.

Backfire wrote:

 AlexHolker wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Many TV series, like game of thrones, have multiple directors and manage just fine to stay cohesive.

Game of Thrones has failed to do this. It did pretty well while it was guided by the novels (written by a single author), but once it went off the rails laid down by George Martin, the plot nosedived.

The problem with GoT the series is that they have to compress remaining ~2 books to 13 episodes. They have to make massive quantum leaps to conclude the story.

Although, some of the storylines written for the show are really bad, it's true. Dorne storyline was at least moderately interesting in the books, but awful in the series. Lets not even mention shows almost comical relying on 'surprise stabbings'. Like five major characters have been killed by "two people talking blah blah - then one suddenly stabs the another" - a "really shocking new plot twist". Yawn.

Lets maybe drop the GoT tangent? My fault, I'm sorry I bought up GoT, it was really just a throwaway comment on a series I felt remained relatively cohesive story (though maybe some ups and downs in quality) in spite of multiple directors rather than the directors seemingly fighting against each other like TFA and TLJ.... I didn't mean it to be a whole discussion on GoT unless people wanted to specifically relate it back to TLJ.

 gorgon wrote:

Regarding the establishment of Luke as a good pilot, there are lots of great civilian pilots IRL who in no way would be able to hold their own in *air combat*. What's more, one actually needs to some familiarity with a given aircraft to fly it effectively. And what we're looking at in ANH isn't going from one plane to another, but from an aircraft to a spaceship. Even if the Force is involved, the scenario is utterly ridiculous, and much less realistic than someone already skilled in close combat fighting well under a Force boost.

I think in SW universe, there is fairly standardized and accessible UI amongst the flying craft, with computers doing most of the flying work and pilot simply giving commands. I think something like this may have even been mentioned in the lore somewhere. So basically, if you can fly one craft, you can fly all of them, save perhaps some unique alien designs. It's not like Cessna 152 pilot trying to take off in F-4 Phantom.
(Also, I think Luke had access to simulators in Tatooine.)

And really, if you think about it, such thing makes sense. Galactic civilization is tens of thousands of years old. Over the years, there would have been a trend for standardized controls, much in the same fashion as computer OS UI's are nowadays very similar.

As for Rey, I think she came across slightly Sue-ish in TFA, and none at all in TLJ. In TFA she was shown multi-skilled - excellet pilot, mechanic, hand-to-hand fighter (though she couldn't shoot), AND she suddenly became powerful Force user. Luke couldn't consciously use Force at all in the first movie, and only could do some basic tricks in the second before Yoda trained him. Rey by contrast is doing pretty much what Luke was in RotJ after just few minutes.
IMO, the problem was that there was no foreboding at all about her Force proficiency. Even my 7 year old nephew pointed it out after the movie. "It was weird how she was suddenly able to defeat that guy who had trained so much more..."
Even with Anakin there was some foreboding, his Jedi reflexes which allowed him to compete in pod racing.
They should have dedicated just like 10 seconds of screentime to Rey's Force connection in TFA, it would have opened up the character much more. Say a scene where Stormtrooper shoots Rey at close range, who somehow dodges the bolt. Then Finn asks "How did you do that?" Rey: "Did what?" Or prophetic dreams or something, it ain't rocket science.

 insaniak wrote:

 Scrabb wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Mark Hamill said he didn't agree with the portrayal of Luke in this film and I agree with him..

He said that after reading the script for the first time. He changed his mind and admitted he was wrong after seeing the finished movie.

Mark Hamill doesn't like TLJ's Luke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0biqMZrxJ0

I'm starting to think you want to like TLJ more than you actually like TLJ.

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/21/star-wars-the-last-jedi-mark-hamill-luke-skywalker-reaction/

Sorry to bring this up again, but it's interesting to actually watch through some interviews from that same string of interviews. If you search youtube you can find a few videos where Mark is being interviewed by various web folks while wearing the same clothes with the same background, it seems they set up just to do a bunch of quick interviews one after the other. Mark actually looks like he's getting a bit sick of interviews during this particular set of them

If you watch a few of them I still don't get the impression Mark liked how he had to portray Luke, at best I think he recognised that Luke shouldn't be playing a large part because it's about the new kids. Even in Mark's twitter post he says he regrets voicing his concerns, but didn't actually state anything contrary to his previously stated opinions about Luke.

I think Mark still wasn't happy about Luke's portrayal but just accepts the movie wasn't about him*** and regrets giving haters something to point to when they're complaining about the film.

***Of course I'm happy enough that Luke didn't play a major role, my gripe is that he seemed so massively out of character. I could have believed Luke being a bad teacher, but throwing away the light sabre (and I think he called it a "laser sword" or something like that), not immediately running back when he finds out Carrie and Harrison are in danger (or dead), the whole fact he ran away from everyone to be on an island without giving his friends an east way to find him right after he unleashed Kylo on the universe and it seems he was aware of Snoke as well, the bit about him drawing a sabre on Kylo (remembering this is the guy who almost died because he refused to kill his father who had actually done horrible things), him being ready to throw in the towel with Rey because she did something ill advised (when he had done things which Yoda AND force ghost Obi Wan specifically told him were the path to destruction and the dark side).

Did Rian even watch the original trilogy before deciding how Luke should act in TLJ?

The 'laser sword' reference was another throwback. Anakin refers to Qui Gon's laser sword in TPM, which is in turn a nod to Lucas, as that's what he originally wanted to call them before everyone else involved convinced him the 'light saber' would be a better choice.

And his almost-murder of Kylo is explained in the movie. He refused to kill his father because he could sense the good in him. In Ben Solo, he could find only darkness. The fact that he pulled back from that action, and that he took the consequences of it so personally seem well enough in character to me.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Personally I wish they had another director for Ep. 9 to provide a third vision in this trilogy. That's more interesting to me than consistency and predictability. *shrug*

What?? Thats not how a Trilogy is supposed to work. A Trilogy is one continuous story, it HAS To be consistent. Otherwise its just a horribly disjointed and incoherent mess.

Imagine what the Lord of the Rings would have been like, if Fellowship of the Ring was directed by Peter Jackson, Two Towers was directed by Michael Bay and then Return of the King was directed by Quentin Tarantino.

Much better than The Hobbit trilogy, that's for sure.

Other examples would be the Star Wars prequels and the Matrix trilogy. So having same director/writer over the trilogy is no guarantee of quality and 'coherency' is no good if's it's coherently crap.

And as I pointed earlier, original SW trilogy was hardly 'coherent' in this sense either as they had multiple directors and screenwriters, even Lucas really had not made any decisions where to go after ANH and much of it was made up as they went along.

As for Snoke, I agree with the sentiment that hype around him was more with the fanbase than the movies itself. It was sort of a meta mystery. Contrast this to first trilogy, where Emperor was just mentioned in passing and was developed into character of his own later - but they could have easily chosen another route and ignore him entirely, or assassinated him in one scene or even offscreen or whatever. Or prequel trilogy where they did start building mystery villain and much of the movies were Jedi trying to figure out who he was and eventually he was revealed (though viewers of course knew by then, but it was meta-knowledge).

Thing is, characters in the movies seemed to know who Snoke was, or at least his background wasn't very relevant to them. Nobody ever speculated about Snoke's identity or where he came from, hence there is no reason to complain about 'mystery' aspect as no such thing was presented - just like with the Emperor in OT. I do agree they should have told us little bit more about him, just a side comment or something, no need for boring exposition monologues or such. With Emperor, his title was self-explanatory and it was mentioned he disbanded the Senate so that already told us a lot about his character. That he was Darth Sidious or former Chancellor who grabbed power was NOT needed for the story initially (and reading the novelization, nothing like that was even envisioned at that point).

It was also mentioned that he was crueler and far more powerful then Darth Vader, which did help hype him up given Darth Vader had his infamous constant force chokes for failure.


Also no it wasn't just the fanbase given that they teased a lot of things over time when it came to the character of Snoke through interviews and other such things, and the new director apparently decided "Nah" and enjoyed trolling fans who liked such a direction on his twitter.

Not to say we learned much of the backstory behind the Emperor.. But he was essentially power over an entire galaxy, while Snoke just randomly appears on the scene and is pretty powerful and is in control of Empire Remnants? One's basically your classic tyrant story while one makes one wonder "Where was this guy previously when he's this strong given that the Emperor doesn't like competition"