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Made in us
Been Around the Block





It states in the new Chaos Codex that all of Kharns close combat attacks hit on a 2+. Attacking a moving skimmer in "close combat" needs a roll of 6. Would Kharns special rule override this? 7 attacks on the charge, str 6+ 2d6, hitting on 2's would be great against mech tau or eldar i think.
   
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Maddening Mutant Boss of Chaos





Colorado

Does it say regardless of WS?

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





whidbey

"kharn's close combat attacks always hit on a roll of 2+. in addition gorechild is treated as a power weopn and, against vehicles, adds an extra d6 to kharns armour penetration rolls. "

so yes he hits even skimmers on a 2+ imho.

 

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




the spire of angels

don't know the exact wordingof the rule but it appears to be similar to nid bio plasma special "always hits on 4+" rule.

 

although even if he does get 2d6 armor pen it still can only glance a skimmer that moved over 6"


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Made in au
Revving Ravenwing Biker






Sydney, Australia

We plat that it hits everything on a 2+ regardless of any other special rule

so yes,
2+ to hit skimmers.
   
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Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control




Australia

Yay.

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Made in us
Sslimey Sslyth






Busy somewhere, airin' out the skin jobs.

I would say that this ability was awesome....

 

....if I wasnt so UNDERwhelmed by the Chaos codex.


I have never failed to seize on 4+ in my life!

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Omnipotent Lord of Change





Albany, NY

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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






How do you decide what takes precedence?

A skimmer, or vehicle moving over 6", requires a "6" to hit in close combat.

How can you say that Kharn's hit on 2 or bio plasma overrides the skimmer rule? Or that the skimmer rule overrides the other rule?

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Longtime Dakkanaut





Bioplasma hits on 4+ regardless of target. That's why it overrides the vehicle moving >6" rule, as you are required to be a type of target to benefit from that rule.
   
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Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






I believe it says regardless of the target's weapon skill for bio-plasma, but I'm at work and don't have my codex handy.

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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Bioplasma always hits on a 4+ "regardless of opponent's weapon skill or type". Skimmer is a type, so this overrides Skimmers only being hit on a 6+.

Kharn's rule just says his "close combat attacks always hit on a 2+". Since the writers don't have the brains to use consistent wording, or perhaps because they use an editor who doesn't actually play the game, you'll have to 4+ which rule takes precedence every time he charges a skimmer.

It was only really going to be good if he was T5 or immune to instant death anyway. Since he's not, whenever he tries this he's going to get zorched by a Brightlance, Pulse Laser, Seeker Missile or Railgun.

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Made in us
Banelord Titan Princeps of Khorne






Maybe I'm being obtuse about this, but...

The skimmer (or any vehicle) that requires a 6 to hit in CC is a factor of how fast the vehicle was moving, not it's type! In the bio-plasma rule, the "type" distinction doesn't really mean anything, because it's not really how fast the vehicle was moving.

Now, I guess you could also say that by virtue of it's type, the rules in close combat to hit a vehicle are different, and I guess that could be what they were referring to.

Now honestly, why is it so hard for a game designer to just say, well I want kharn to be able to wail on skimmers, or bio-plasma to hit whenever, so I'll just write, REGARDLESS OF THE CIRCUMSTANCES. Wouldn't that be more clear?


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Tilter at Windmills






Manchester, NH

Very common mistake. Skimmers are always hit on a 6 in cc regardless of distance moved. For non-skimmer vehicles, it's a question of distance moved.

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I was more talking about type.

Technically, I believe the 4th ed rules specify that a skimmer in CC is treated as "always moving greater than 6 inches". This falls along with the vehicle hit table on that same page I believe.

The question is, Bio plasma says "Hit on 4+ regardless of Weapon Skill or Type".

This is the technical fiddly sticky bit that I thought I might be overanalyzing, but I'd like some feed back.

The Vehicle's Type is Tank, Walker, Skimmer, Etc. The score needed to hit a vehicle in CC is a factor of how fast it was moving , not what its type is. Does that make any sense?

So in that case, I would say that like Kharn's ability, even Bio-plasma vs Vehicles is a sticky issue that should probably require a D6 roll or an understanding before the game starts.

That's what I was trying to get at. And then I said, it would be moot if GW had written, "Kharn hits on a 2+ regardless of other circumstances in CC." It's just baffling how they can't seem to stay consistent.

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one could argue that Vehical is a type in itself.
   
Made in kr
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Stationed in Korea

I thought that the general consensus here was that the specific rule takes place over the generic: skimmers moving more than 6" is a more specific example than "Kharn hits everything at 2+" otherwise GW (who can't even put out basic FAQs in a timely manner) has to spend too much time going back and listing all the exceptions for each rule.

So IMO Kharn doesn't hit skimmers moving fast on a 2+.

Is there a caboose on this train of thought? 
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





BGB pg. 71: "The roll to hit score needed is as follows:
. . .
Attacking a vehicle that moved more than 6" in its previous turn: 6+

A skimmer that is not immobilised always counts as moving more than 6" in its previous turn."

Kharn:"Kharn's close combat attacks always hit on a roll of 2+." (emphasis mine)

How exactly do you read pg. 71 as being more specific? It's exactly as specific as the rules that tell you how to roll to hit a model with a WS value (BGB pg. 41-42). Kharn's rule clearly overrides that, so why shouldn't it overrule the pg. 71 rule, too?

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How on earth can you disagree with t-c?

It's right there in front of you. Read it. Use your brain. He's right.

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[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


I agree. Kharn's special rule is clearly more specific. He's the uber vehicle destroyer of doom. Watch out skimmer armies!



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EDIT

Onlainari,

I specified that I did not have my codex available and that I was under the impression that Kharn's entry read, "Hit on a 2+ regardless of weaponskill", which would have made it much more sticky.

If it indeed says, always hit on a 2+, then there is no argument.

The comments to "use my brain" are a little off beat in a friendly discussion, because clearly, if you would have "used your brain" and "read" what I posted, you would see that I was asking a question for some feedback and attempting to get into a little more discussion.

Once again I also noted that I did not have my book available.

Frankly its pretty sad, and I also noticed that you didn't tell the original poster to "use his brain" and "read", so I would have to say that you are just trolling around for a flamin'.

YMDC is for big kids, not big trolls. Just because we are a little rough in here sometimes doesn't mean we jump on everyone as a matter of principle.

Everyone else, thanks for clearing this up for me!  Although I think T-C that you also said that kharn would rightfully bag one skimmer before he was zorched!


Veriamp wrote:I have emerged from my lurking to say one thing. When Mat taught the Necrons to feel, he taught me to love.

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Longtime Dakkanaut





whidbey

OLD kharn had the weapon skill bit

new kharn hit always on 2+ period

he still dies like a dog

   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Woodbridge, VA

Course, since you are not in close combat when you attack a vehicle and he only hits on a 2+ when in close combat.................

Don "MONDO"
www.ironfistleague.com
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Made in sg
Executing Exarch





"Enemy troops can attack skimmers in the Assault phase, as close combat takes into account close range shooting and grenade lobbing as well as actual hand-to-hand combat."--BGB pg. 70

"At the conclusion of a round of close combat against a vehicle with no WS characteristic, there are no sweeping advances or Consolidation moves."--BGB pg. 71

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
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Between a rock and a hard place

Posted By skkipper on 09/20/2007 6:05 AM

OLD kharn had the weapon skill bit

new kharn hit always on 2+ period

he still dies like a dog


At least a dog can run pretty fast. I don't think any skimmer has to worry about from Kharn, unless you drive right at him.

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