Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:
I just solved the problem:
Pirobo means something different (maybe "chicken") in the fictional universe of infinity.
The thing is, the way something sounds in some other language might be offensive, while it isn't in the other. Same goes for meanings of the same words. Ghazzkul Thraka in Russian reads like Ghazzkul sh*tter. If one tries hard enough, he can tie any word to something bad.

Ps:#chicken_shaming
Pss: I just remembered that in prisons of east Europe chicken(cock to be precise) means something bad. See, proves my point.

Cock can be a bad word in English, but context is important. Also, again, swearing is different to homophobic slurs.

I guess I don't understand. Why is it that everyone has to be offended by everything? Seriously?

Color me unsurprised. In other cultures "coolie" simply means unskilled labor. In the US, like literally everything else, it's an insult.

I get it. Some people will be offended. But some people are just offended by everything. It's insane.

 JBSchroeds wrote:
I think the thing that personally bothers me the most is what I see as an improper separation of fluff and crunch. I don't care if the character says it as part of the background, my problem is that this is the actual name of the ability. It's something players are going to be saying. Out loud. Repeatedly. In public places. Among strangers. And CB is making them (probably unwittingly) speak a major-league profanity.

Pretty much this. If they just named it 'Intimidate', and if they needed to get the childishness out of their system, just had him say it in a fluff piece, it wouldn't have been so bad. Still pretty unacceptable, but not as bad. The fact it's front and center as the name of a skill, which means it'll be repeated very regularly during a game, is a problem in itself.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:I just solved the problem:
Pirobo means something different (maybe "chicken") in the fictional universe of infinity.
The thing is, the way something sounds in some other language might be offensive, while it isn't in the other. Same goes for meanings of the same words. Ghazzkul Thraka in Russian reads like Ghazzkul sh*tter. If one tries hard enough, he can tie any word to something bad.

Bad logic. First, your solution. I think 'Pan' means female genatalia in the Infinity universe, since it's a fictional setting. Suddenly I find Pan Oceanias faction name to be very offensive. And unfortunately, there's no precedent for this in the setting. As notably pointed out, there's curse words in English in TAGline. Current insults and curses are apparently still used.

Second, that wouldn't be too bad, just 'mixing up a meaning', if it wasn't intentionally framed as an insult. The point of the ability is to intimidate. It's clear what the word is meant to mean.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

njtrader wrote:
I guess I don't understand. Why is it that everyone has to be offended by everything? Seriously?

Color me unsurprised. In other cultures "coolie" simply means unskilled labor. In the US, like literally everything else, it's an insult.

I get it. Some people will be offended. But some people are just offended by everything. It's insane.

So you've got no problem using the English translation in a room with other people, probably also strangers? Just casually using the word? How about if someone in the room is also of Columbian descent?

It's not about being offended. it's about the logic of using it so casually in a board game, in a manner in which you're going to be saying it quite often, around strangers who themselves might find it offensive.

 ImAGeek wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
There were English swearwords in Tag line, so it's not like it's new.
It works with the flavour CB was going for, if that's a good flavour to be going for is a different matter.

Swearing is different to homophobic slurs.

I think the argument being made is that it has a different meaning in Spain than Columbia, plenty of words in English carry different weight depending on locale.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And since you mentioned Coolies you might remember that in Spain (or most non English Europe) it never had the gravity US people gave it, might be the same with the confederate warflag, most of us not living in the US never understood what was the fuss all about.

Well I certainly know the people in America don't understand what all the fuss is in Europe over the swastika. They are figuratively the same thing. Has CB put swastikas on any of their minis or art of late.

CB trying to sneak some edgey stuff into a mass market game... Wow. Good luck with that.

Chairman Aeon wrote:

 PsychoticStorm wrote:
And since you mentioned Coolies you might remember that in Spain (or most non English Europe) it never had the gravity US people gave it, might be the same with the confederate warflag, most of us not living in the US never understood what was the fuss all about.

Well I certainly know the people in America don't understand what all the fuss is in Europe over the swastika. They are figuratively the same thing. Has CB put swastikas on any of their minis or art of late.

CB trying to sneak some edgey stuff into a mass market game... Wow. Good luck with that.

I'm really tired so I could be misunderstanding... is PS giving ignorance as an excuse to put confederate flag as an acceptable icon?

The Original Concept Art of McCree from Overwatch had a Confederate Flag on it. At that point he was a racist and xenophobic guy so it maked sense for him.

I don't see the problem with putting Confederate Flags or even Swastikas as long as it is in one of three forms:
-Using them as a parody of the ideology they represent.
-For historical accuracy
-To represents with all of his shadows what those symbols represent.

I can see real historical symbols used in a fantasy/scy-fi setting based in Earth, and not too far into the future.
Is people offended by Command and Conquer Red Alert? With their sovietic symbols, and Imperial Japan symbols (That were in many ways even worse than the nazis)?

 ImAGeek wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
There were English swearwords in Tag line, so it's not like it's new.
It works with the flavour CB was going for, if that's a good flavour to be going for is a different matter.

Swearing is different to homophobic slurs.

Not quite; insulting gay people for being gay is not the same as swearing. Using an offensive/shocking word to emphasise a point (that point often being an insult) is what swearing is; for example: fecal matter rarely has anything to do with a situation where gak is said.

The point is that CB characters are adults and act like adults, they're even unpleasant donkey-caves sometimes. The notion that fictional characters should be paragons of political correctness and tolerance (who represent perfectly the views of their creators), seems to defeat the notion of believable characters and villains/anti-heroes in general.
CB could have had their characters just have clean tongues, but they did not, so: seems like something that character would say.

 DarkBlack wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 DarkBlack wrote:
There were English swearwords in Tag line, so it's not like it's new.
It works with the flavour CB was going for, if that's a good flavour to be going for is a different matter.

Swearing is different to homophobic slurs.

Not quite; insulting gay people for being gay is not the same as swearing. Using an offensive/shocking word to emphasise a point (that point often being an insult) is what swearing is; for example: fecal matter rarely has anything to do with a situation where gak is said.

The point is that CB characters are adults and act like adults, they're even unpleasant donkey-caves sometimes. The notion that fictional characters should be paragons of political correctness and tolerance (who represent perfectly the views of their creators), seems to defeat the notion of believable characters and villains/anti-heroes in general.
CB could have had their characters just have clean tongues, but they did not, so: seems like something that character would say.

As people have pointed out though, it’s not so much that the character would say it. It’s that it’s the name of a rule, which means people playing the game will be saying it. I wouldn’t mind so much if it was in his fluff or whatever, and generally agree characters shouldn’t necessarily be politically correct, because lots of people aren’t. But that’s not the issue here.

Lets be honest. If it was not the name of the rule, just a fluffy bit of him, people will still complaint that he said it.

 Galas wrote:
Lets be honest. If it was not the name of the rule, just a fluffy bit of him, people will still complaint that he said it.

Some yeah, I think less though. Though I think it would be more fitting in Infinity than Aristeia if it had to be anywhere. Aristeia seems pretty child friendly with the bright colours and stuff while Infinity is more adult, as people have said there’s already instances of swearing in the fluff.

 -Loki- wrote:

It's not about being offended. it's about the logic of using it so casually in a board game, in a manner in which you're going to be saying it quite often, around strangers who themselves might find it offensive.

Why not wait until someone has a legitimate grievance, rather than prematurely getting offended on their behalf before any issue actually arises?

I mean, do you play Infinity around a lot of Colombians? If you did, do they also think it is offensive? I mean, I think it is hilarious when Japanese people curse in English. Moreover, do they find it so offensive that they refuse to play the game rather than just shrugging it off or deciding with other players to use a different word before they play? Are they so offended that they demand the game itself be changed to suit their situation? It seems to me like you have a distant, distant, DISTANT outside chance of meeting all those criteria.

And what lengths do Corvus Belli need to go to in order to pander to this almost certainly nonexistent possibility?

 Galas wrote:
The Original Concept Art of McCree from Overwatch had a Confederate Flag on it. At that point he was a racist and xenophobic guy so it maked sense for him.

I don't see the problem with putting Confederate Flags or even Swastikas as long as it is in one of three forms:
-Using them as a parody of the ideology they represent.
-For historical accuracy
-To represents with all of his shadows what those symbols represent.

I can see real historical symbols used in a fantasy/scy-fi setting based in Earth, and not too far into the future.
Is people offended by Command and Conquer Red Alert? With their sovietic symbols, and Imperial Japan symbols (That were in many ways even worse than the nazis)?

Spoiler:

Like this:

Well I`m offended now by the "With their sovietic symbols (That were in many ways even worse than the nazis)?" remark. I thought I was in youtube comments there for a second. There is a difference between germany and nazis, and there is a different between USSR and NKVD/KGB.

But hey, lets get on topic of Infinity and Aresteia. Can`t imagine there is much to add about it.. And we`re tipping to the off-topic area.

 ImAGeek wrote:

The thing is, the way something sounds in some other language might be offensive, while it isn't in the other. Same goes for meanings of the same words. Ghazzkul Thraka in Russian reads like Ghazzkul sh*tter. If one tries hard enough, he can tie any word to something bad.

Pss: I just remembered that in prisons of east Europe chicken(cock to be precise) means something bad. See, proves my point.

That would be the regional context thing again. Quick topical example, where I come from in Yorkshire 'cock' is synonymous with 'mate' (as in friend, before anyone goes all nudge nudge, wink wink).

Anyway, I seriously can't believe people are still insisting on getting hot and bothered about this.

OFF TOPIC POSTS DELETED.

RULE #1 - BE POLITE.

RULE #2 - STAY ON TOPIC.

Pretty easy, right?

Ok lets clarify a few things.

First of all ignorance is a valid excuse, wherever you live the vast majority of humans do not live there and they have different traditions beliefs and ideas than you, you will never know everything and practically anything you do might be offensive to somebody, somewhere. There is a very good reason the knowledge we have for the other countries and their customs is superficial, if you do not live somewhere you cannot know how they work.

Coming from the country with one of the two most misrepresented ancient religions and mythology (the other been the Norse Mythology) should I be offended with virtually every depiction and iteration the modern world has in misrepresenting my culture? that is ridiculous, I am honoured people get inspired by such an ancient folklore and adapt it to their viewpoint to make something cool of their own.

This is what culture is share, merge and adopt.

coming back to my comment about the confederate (war)flag, please understand most of us are not from the US and are not versed in your micro-politics, the confederate warflag (I learned it was the warflag a couple of years ago) if for most of us a well known symbol from the US mostly from the US media we consumed in our early life, Dukes of Hazard among others I can understand given the research and the shouts that for you it is something else but for the rest of the world, it is another symbol with another life and another meaning.

Frankly for myself I was surprised and shocked, I have several customers who are Americans and some did had the flag as a pin in their cloths for as long as I knew them as customers, I read a few lines in the local news about that flag thing and next day none of them ever wore it again, clearly for the Americans it is another symbol and has a different meaning than what it is for the rest of the world.

Yes, I can see CB putting the flag on the bikes and thing yes, this is cool, only to find themselves under heavy critique without understanding why and in need of a course in recent USA internal politics.

Likewise for many things, coolies is offensive in the US (but mostly in South Africa?), I personally only knew it from the term "coolie hat" reading wikipedia it is an inoffensive term in most of the countries that would comprise PanOceania and I can see why one would use it to describe the front-line maintenance corps of PanOceania.

Someone on this thread said "Europe has a problem with Swastika" well not really, Germany has an issue and most of Europe thinks it is a rather silly one, it is an example of how superficial and generic we think of each other cultures because we cannot know the details.

Finally, as it has been pointed out, the word that sparked this, has a meaning on one variation of it in one country that speaks Spanish in this world (and that country is not Spain), it means several other different things in Spanish in different countries, why exactly should CB know what it means in that country? and why should we care what it means in one country when it does not mean the same in all countries?

Of course, PsychoticStorm, the one part where your 'ignorance is a defence' argument falls flat is that Corvus Belli take a lot of time to do research. They take racial groups, research their history and repurpose their cultural background for Infinity, using their background as a way to describe how they are doing in Infinity now.

The fact that simply typing pirobo into google gives you a box-out telling you the Columbian meaning, and then they have that as the insult used by the character who, as part of their background, has spent a good while fighting in central America, shows that it could well be intentional.

'Recent' US politics?

The American Civil War was a fair few years ago, and the Confederate Flag was and remains a...polarizing symbol, to say the least.

And none of that is hard to find out.

This misstep might just be that - a misstep, but as CB continues to grow and expand, they really need to be better at avoiding these easily avoidable gaffes.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

Finally, as it has been pointed out, the word that sparked this, has a meaning on one variation of it in one country that speaks Spanish in this world (and that country is not Spain), it means several other different things in Spanish in different countries, why exactly should CB know what it means in that country? and why should we care what it means in one country when it does not mean the same in all countries?

I'd just like to point out there are actually more Spanish speakers in Columbia than there are in Spain. It ranks only behind Mexico in population among the Spanish speaking world. So this specific definition exists for a non-insignificant portion of native speakers.

 Alpharius wrote:
'Recent' US politics?

When the history of your country reaches back millennia, 150 years is recent

Aren't you just assuming the worst about CB and inventing intent because it fits your particular biases and beliefs?

It's not about protecting people. It's about punishing people.

So we can't assume CB's intent but we can assume the intent of everyone who isn't a racist?

I think we can all agree (ha!) that CB just stepped in it here, and while there's an easy(ish) fix, who knows if they'll take it?

Recent as, for most of the world up until the last couple of years the flag was a symbol associated with US and a promoted as one since movies, films and (country) bands from the US used it without any massive negative associations to the symbol.

As for the word, I am still not convinced it is an issue, do we have any actual Columbian here to at least properly convey how they use the word and how severe it really is at least in their language, because any translation I can find, seems to be obscure word anyway, would not raise an eyebrow here, of course Mediterranean cultures are known for their wealth in swearwords and the excessive integration on the everyday language so, it might not been an issue for us anyway.

 Alpharius wrote:
'Recent' US politics?

The American Civil War was a fair few years ago, and the Confederate Flag was and remains a...polarizing symbol, to say the least.

Yes, recent. There has been a deliberate attempt in the past decade to repaint the symbols of the Civil War in a new, negative light. It's not just the flag and the monuments, but the festivals, roads, schools, buildings, landmarks, and everything else too. For instance, here is a Jun 2017 article about renaming Robert E. Lee high school in Tampa. If it was always offensive, and Lee was always seen as a traitor, then why has it taken until 2017 to change its name? Why was it named after him in the first place? The answer is because, obviously, it was not a controversial name until recently.

The idea that the Civil War was primarily about racism is a result of the Civil Rights movement during the 60s, and the idea that the South was a bunch of dirty traitors is a relatively new way of looking at the conflict that is based on growing up being taught that the Civil War was about racism. Before the 60s, the Civil War was seen as a war for states rights - something which people call you racist for these days. Here's a video of FDR dedicating a Civil War monument to the Blue AND the Gray. Growing up in the South, it was not uncommon for people to have framed portraits of Robert E Lee above their mantle. The idea that he was a traitor and a scumbag is a new invention by a generation of people raised on a cartoon version of the Civil War, who strongly, strongly believe in moral absolutism. The idea that anything can be a shade of gray or even just more complicated than right vs wrong seems to offend them to the very core - hence their overwhelming need to destroy anything from the past which confuses them. Free speech is one such confusing issue that right now, the majority of college students stand steadfastly against (!).

. If it was always offensive, and Lee was always seen as a traitor, then why has it taken until 2017 to change its name? Why was it named after him in the first place? The answer is because, obviously, it was not a controversial name until recently.

I'd suggest you actually look at the history of these monuments, particularly as they weren't built immediately after the war but erected coinciding with Jim Crow laws and served as a rallying point for the sort of attitudes that go along with that. It was never about history but an easy facade for vile people to hide behind.

And asking why it took until now is pretty disingenuous, why has it taken until now for any other social issue? It's taken time for xenophobes to die out and more rational voices to come to the forefront.

Has ALEPH rebuilt Robert E Lee as a playable model for USARiadna?

Wow, that's some great work on CB's part...

With a whole lexicon of swears and insults without a ton of baggage attached, they chose that.

I mean, I don't really expect much from them considering how they've been in the past, but this just shows how tone deaf they really are.

Just add it to the litany of bone-headed things they've done and pray that one day they will grow some kind of self-introspection and realize that they can really be -hats.

But more likely, they'll cocoon themselves in their echo chamber and pretend like the world is to blame instead of taking a look at themselves and their own actions. It's been their MO before and I can't see them changing at this stage.

 ScarletRose wrote:

I'd suggest you actually look at the history of these monuments, particularly as they weren't built immediately after the war but erected coinciding with Jim Crow laws and served as a rallying point for the sort of attitudes that go along with that. It was never about history but an easy facade for vile people to hide behind.

Let me guess. You saw that one graph on Reddit that showed that the majority of monuments were created in the 1910s or so and heard someone else mention Jim Crow laws, and the conclusions just jumped to themselves, right?

Well, as it turns out, the reason why the monuments were created 40-70 years after the war was because that's when the Civil War veterans were dying off. You think FDR was dedicating that eternal flame monument I linked to in my previous post because he was oppressing black people? He was honoring living civil war vets - who wouldn't be living that much longer. You can see them in the video. Due to the canon fire, they were all partially deaf. That's why they were holding their hands up to their ears. They were old and infirm, and the country built monuments to its veterans on both sides.

Wait. I wonder if there was some other reason people were remembering the Civil War. That large spike at 1910 and 1911... I wonder if those dates mean anything. What reasons could anybody have for creating monuments in remembrance of a war EXACTLY 50 years earlier other than Jim Crow laws?

During the 60s though, maybe those monuments could be claimed to be all about oppressing black people because the Civil Rights movement and all. Except you know what else happened in the 60s? The Civil War Centennial anniversary. That's right. 100 years after the Civil War, some people decided to remember the Civil War. Those donkey-caves!

That graph and accompanying conclusions were compiled the SPLC. Their bias in these matters should be obvious.

And asking why it took until now is pretty disingenuous, why has it taken until now for any other social issue? It's taken time for xenophobes to die out and more rational voices to come to the forefront.

So, I guess your generation is just right all the time about everything and every generation that came before you is racist? That lump of gray matter between your ears is capable of more than just regurgitating Facebook posts.

Wait. I wonder if there was some other reason people were remembering the Civil War.

As I said, it's a convenient rallying point for unsavory people. You know, like the kind who form torch wielding mobs, threaten large segments of the population and murder US citizens.

And as we're seeing here the pretext just gives a nice way to cover up the whole matter as "appreciating history".

So, I guess your generation is just right all the time about everything and every generation that came before you is racist?

I'm not one of "those youngins" or however it goes nowadays, I just see how progress works. It takes time for old ideas to die off, usually with the idea's originators.

Anyway, the whole apologism and resorting to insults thing is cute but it's off topic, we're talking about Infinity.

--

Personally I'm going to wait and see how CB acts on this, if they do at all. I've just ben painting the odd min here and there since they do make very nice stuff so it's not a pressing issue for me.

Drop this US Civil War dross thanks. Trying to debate what the statues mean, when they were made, what that has to do with anything, all of these topics have a good place to be discussed.

That place is another forum. Because US Politics has had its run here and is no longer permitted in our OT, and certainly not in our N&R threads. Further posts will be deleted and users warned.