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I'm sure this has already been discussed in the previous pages but has anyone had any luck with teleporting an ancient (as your warlord with First into the Fray) near the enemy/behind them, and then following up with several units using teleports or gates? Rerolling to charge and an extra attack would be kind of bonkers no?
I've also discovered that standard DK's are so bad when you have access to GMDKs.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/03 09:30:21
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Does anyone know how to deal with eldar exarch flyers? not 5 or something crazy like that, but 2 supported by a wall of weave serpents. Had my first game against such a list today, and for the first time in my gaming career my opponent lost 0 models the entire game.
And I have to play the guy on friday again, and his brother has the same list only with one exarch and some DE stuff.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Can't make an ancient your warlord I don't think. Unless it's open play, which isn't really worth discussing.
Alright, so remove the ancient, take a GM or a librarian and do the same thing - take the warlord trait that allows rerolls. You run the risk of giving up warlord but you also have access to rerollable charges in a possibly advantageous location.
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points)
You can make any model the Warlord, it doesn't even need to be a character.
They only get a Warlord trait if they are a character, though. A Brotherhood Ancient would be fine, I've run lists with the Apothecary being the Warlord.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
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Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
I've switched so far to Custodes I forget which, but only one, Heed or Sanctuary, actually 'improves' the save. The other just gives you +1 to the roll. That's why it works.
Elric Greywolf wrote: Then, the GMDK got Prognosticators, Sanctuary, Hammerhand, and Gated. He's at a 2++ and 9" away from the Crusader, and gives it a spite Smite. He buffs his guns, shoots the Knight, doing 6 wounds with the Psycannon, and wipes the Pathfinders with the Psilencer. He charges (WL reroll charge) and makes it, doing SIXTEEN DAMAGE in CC, leaving the Knight with a single wound.
I don't think the 2++ is legal. Heed the Prognosticars must be used at the start of your turn, and the GKFAQ stats that Sanctuary can improve an invul save to a max of 3++.
I've switched so far to Custodes I forget which, but only one, Heed or Sanctuary, actually 'improves' the save. The other just gives you +1 to the roll. That's why it works.
It's crazy that I get challenged every. single. time. I make this claim. It's completely obvious if you read the rules. Sanctuary psychic improves the save by 1. Prognosticators stratagem adds one to saving throws. Therefore, rolling a 2+1=3, which passes his Sanctuary save. It's not actually a 2++, but it is effectively one, and it's soooo much easier to just type "2++" than to write out that explanation each time. I always assume that everyone, especially people on a GK forum, can make the mental leap....but I suppose my assumption is incorrect.
Before the GKFAQ, Sanctuary and Heed did the exact same thing: add one to rolls. After the FAQ, they edited one of them, not both. That seems indicative that GW doesn't care if they play off each other. If they didn't want it, they would've kept the wording on both of them the same and FAQed both of them, rather than just one of them.
"[We have] an inheritance which is beyond the reach of change and decay." 1 Peter 1.4
"With the Emperor there is no variation or shadow due to change." James 1.17
“Fear the Emperor; do not associate with those who are given to change.” Proverbs 24.21
It's crazy that I get challenged every. single. time. I make this claim. It's completely obvious if you read the rules. Sanctuary psychic improves the save by 1. Prognosticators stratagem adds one to saving throws. Therefore, rolling a 2+1=3, which passes his Sanctuary save. It's not actually a 2++, but it is effectively one, and it's soooo much easier to just type "2++" than to write out that explanation each time. I always assume that everyone, especially people on a GK forum, can make the mental leap....but I suppose my assumption is incorrect.
Before the GKFAQ, Sanctuary and Heed did the exact same thing: add one to rolls. After the FAQ, they edited one of them, not both. That seems indicative that GW doesn't care if they play off each other. If they didn't want it, they would've kept the wording on both of them the same and FAQed both of them, rather than just one of them.
I can understand that sentiment as I'm also someone who relies on giving my GMNDK Sanctuary + Heed every turn. It's one of the best combos that GK has, and we need it to put up a fight in this unfriendly meta. Every time my opponents hear the words come out of my mouth "he effectively has a 2++ invulnerable save" they have a similar reaction as the one you're describing.
But I don't hold it against them. It's become a common (mis)understanding that GW wanted to remove the prevalence of 2++ in this edition. I like to think that GW is giving GK the opportunity to still own a 2++ because they want to throw GK a bone. But the cynical part of me wonders if it's just another rules pairing they've overlooked and haven't heard enough buzz about to settle it in a FAQ.
Also to revive a point I made a few months ago... competitive event organizers aren't even unanimous on this issue (see spoiler below of my quoted post from May 26, 2018)
Spoiler:
Nairul wrote: Back on the subject of Heed the Prognosticars:
(1) Can it be used more than once simultaneously since "start of your turn" does not reference a specific phase?
(2) Can it be used to improve the invulnerable save of a unit to 2++, in combination with Sanctuary (or multiple Heeds, if #1 is to be allowed)?
I've made some preliminary email inquiries to Frontline Gaming, and also to tournament organizers of two upcoming ITC tournaments this summer. Thought some of you might be interested in their rulings. To be clear, I'm aware these are not official GW rulings. Still, if some of you are interested in the TO perspectives on this issue, then here's some:
Frontline Gaming
(1) "No, the start of the turn isn't an exception to the restriction. The only time you get around this is with strats used before the game begins."
(2) No comment.
The Beef & Wing Brawl
(1) "Only during pregame can a strat be used more than once."
(2) "As for the invo save we have determined it cant be modified past 3++"
Warhammer ATC Tournament
1) "No, the start of a player turn is also the start of the movement phase."
(2) "I don't believe there is any technical reason why it wouldn't work, although some tournaments have ruled against it working based upon the apparent intent to limit it to a 3++ in one of the Stratagems, so it is possible that ITC MAY limit it before the event rules cutoff."
Thoughts (1) Well that's a unanimous response to #1. I respect it, but I'm still scratching my head about... if the "start of your turn" is equivalent to the movement phase, how then is "end of a battle round" not a Morale phase? Yet in the Strategic Discipline rule "end of a battle round" is referenced as an exception to the rule.
(2) Responses show there's a 50/50 split on this. Not a great sample size, though it suggests the issue is still up in the air and you should probably confer with your opponent before a game if you were planning to use the Sanctuary+Heed combo for a 2++.
So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
Works really well when every unit you have is able to cast a real psychic power. As soon as you go past 1k points your units start to seem far more expensive when all they can cast is a 12 inch mini smite.
Nice to hear you're having success of course, I do enjoy smaller battles more often than bigger ones to be honest - my group is just setting up a 1k round robin after getting sick of the Titanhammer style of match that 2k games are these days.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: So I took the boys out for their very first game at 850 points because that's all I have and absolutely wiped the floor with the other guy.
Things I took away from it
a) Gate is awesome, deep strike is awesome, interceptors are awesome.
b) Grand masters kick arse, even with just a sword
c) Storm bolters and psilencers everywhere makes short work of other infantry.
d) Space marines suck, but they're my main army so I knew that already.
Works really well when every unit you have is able to cast a real psychic power. As soon as you go past 1k points your units start to seem far more expensive when all they can cast is a 12 inch mini smite.
Nice to hear you're having the success of course, I do enjoy smaller battles more often than bigger ones to be honest - my group is just setting up a 1k round robin after getting sick of the Titanhammer style of match that 2k games are these days.
Yup. We did an escalation league a couple months ago here and I brought my grey knights. At 500 (2 weeks) and 750 points (2 weeks), I was rocking it. Everyone could cast their powers and I didn't have to deal with imperial knights (we didn't let super heavies in until 1.5k or higher). But when I got up to 1k, my power really started to drop off. Even worse at 1.5k and 2k (although i did win one in the 2k week against necrons, still had a decent enough of a beta strike holding paladins in reserve and interceptors protected in razorbacks... was able to survive turn 1).
I believe the drop off came for two reasons.
1. I couldn't withstand the focus firepower at higher point levels. Armies really started to be able to point and click my units away in the shooting phase... and losing units as grey knights HURTS. Combine that with the need to put so much of my stuff on the board turn 1 and I could easily lose 1-2 units before I got to have a say.
2. Oversaturated with psychic powers w/o being able to cast them. So I was paying points for something a unit wa sn't doing. if multiple units could cast gate of infinity or sanctuary... then maybe I would be okay.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/09 17:21:16
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
I ran the following list against AM 2 nights ago with pretty good success.
- GMDK
- Draigo
- Autocannon/Lascannon Dread
- Vindicare Assassin (was completely useless rolled a 1 every time I shot with him)
- 2x 5 man strikes in AC Razorbacks
- 1x 9 man strike in DS - Stormhawk Interceptor
- Knight Gallant
Ended up with a kill point game. Bottom of turn 4 score was 13 to 4 game wasnt going to extend and his only course for victory was killing my entire army which probably wouldn't of happened.
Firepower was good and able to absolutely mulch all his infantry. Gallant killed a Leman russ and put a bunch of wounds on other stuff then detonated and mortal wounded a bunch of other things. GMDK killed a Hellhound a heavy weapons squad and a 10 man infantry squad.
AM Battalion -Company Commander (Warlord — Grand Strategist)
-Company Commander (Relic of Lost Cadia)
-3x10 Infantry Squad (2x Mortar Team)
-3x Basilisks
Bonus points if you're able to recommend I swap for something that's already in my limited collection. Here's a pitiful list of what else I have:
Spoiler:
2x5 PAGK Kaldor Draigo
yeah, that's it.
Sadly, the TO has ruled I'm not allowed to achieve an effective 2++ on my GMNDK with a combination of Heed the Prognosticars & Sanctuary. I wonder then if a GMNDK is even worth bringing?
Previously I used all Interceptors and left the Strike Squads at home. But with that new 2CP stratagem from Big FAQ #2 to give Cover to all units... ugh it seems to really hamper the alpha strike potential of Interceptor units. Now I've decided to only bring one to ensure they Vortex of Doom on the first turn.
Also not sure on Voldus vs. Draigo in this list.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 19:42:04
Only reason to take Draigo over Voldus is reroll bubble.
I think the mobility of the Interceptors might still be worth it since you have the AM to drive the GMDK. Plus with the Basilisk raining terror they should be able to move a little more freely for fear of retaliation from the Basilisk. Remember you can always opt to go 2nd. Take the strat for yourself and then teleport on bottom T1. Keep everything hidden from the enemy if possible.
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Welcome to Tournament play. The logic behind TO rulings consists largely of what side of the bed they got up on that morning.
I attended a doubles tournament a few weeks ago to watch some friends play. A TO ruled on the day that the character rule did not apply for one players HQ's being blocked by his allies troops, then flip-flopped the very next game.
TheMostWize wrote: Only reason to take Draigo over Voldus is reroll bubble.
I think the mobility of the Interceptors might still be worth it since you have the AM to drive the GMDK. Plus with the Basilisk raining terror they should be able to move a little more freely for fear of retaliation from the Basilisk. Remember you can always opt to go 2nd. Take the strat for yourself and then teleport on bottom T1. Keep everything hidden from the enemy if possible.
Also how can the TO possible rule that you cannot get and effective 2++? He just makes up his own rules?
Thanks very much for your input.
As for the TO thing... I suppose it's my own fault really. I was overly-cautious and presented the Heed+Sanctuary combo to him as an ongoing rules controversy that I wanted him to rule on. Now, personally I don't think it's up for debate. RAW I think we're allowed to get an effective 2++. But over the summer my inquiries to other TO's of high-profile events revealed that, outside the insulated GK community, this issue is still up in the air https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/1740/727042.page#9994589.
I'm sure if I said nothing there's a good chance nobody would have noticed and I could have played my GMNDK with a 2++. But this will be my first tournament and I wanted to be sportsmanlike and transparent. AND NOW I PAY THE PRICE!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/10/09 21:02:16
With the November Warhammer World Open day on the horizon I have put together a 1,000 (almost) point list using all the models I have (Voldus and the dread are still subassembled for painting but whatever). Comments would be appreciated, as there is still a month and a bit to aquire other models.
994 total points
HQ Grand Master
Psilencer
Sword
Voldus
Troops
Strike Squad
Psilencer
Sword and three sets of falchions
Elites
Paladin Squad
One sword, one staff and two halberds
Doomglaive Dreadnought
Nemesis Doomglaive
Heavy Psycannon
Incinerator
Fast Attack
Interceptor Squad
Psilencer
One of sword, falchion set, halberd and staff
(I know the CC weapon loadouts are a little whack but I built them to look cool)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/10 18:38:04
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Can't make an ancient your warlord I don't think. Unless it's open play, which isn't really worth discussing.
Alright, so remove the ancient, take a GM or a librarian and do the same thing - take the warlord trait that allows rerolls. You run the risk of giving up warlord but you also have access to rerollable charges in a possibly advantageous location.
I've tried this. My experience is a little less than half make it in and the rest stand there waiting to get shot the next turn. Plenty of times (even with rerolls) that nothing happens from it. It's a high risk move that puts you at a disadvantage if it doesn't work. I also wouldnt do this against a melee army.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
What happened to the talons if the emperor that forgeworld was talking about that would help out the grey knights?
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Smotejob wrote: What happened to the talons if the emperor that forgeworld was talking about that would help out the grey knights?
It's Custodes nice try
It was supposed to include GK and sisters of silence as well...though if FW does any GK stuff I’m guessing it’s just going to be land raiders, dreadnought, and a thunderhawk, once and for all ensuring we can’t take any of the normal Adeptus Astartes stuff since we’ll be in a different book.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/10/14 23:58:04
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
I have a combo that I'm going to try, and I'm curious if others have already done so. Knights were the last thing that I would typically ally with my GK, due to the high points of both. However, with the Knights Codex they've opened up some goodies that I think help GK. I'm going to try the following list at 2k:
GK BN
1- Voldus (Warlord)
1- Crowe (for horde killing)
3- 5 man strike squads, 1 Psilencer in each
Super Heavy Auxiliary
1- Knight Crusader (Gatling Cannon, Thermal Cannon)
The idea is to pay CP to give the Knight a Warlord Trait and another for a Relic. Give him improved Ion Shield trait, and either the 2+ armor or the improved Gatling Cannon relic. With the Rotate Ion Shields Stratagem, the Knight can become the bullet sponge your GK need to close the distance with the enemy, instead of killing your NDKGM or Paladins, or whatever you decide to run. It should be very survivable, with Psychic powers and mortal wounds from that being its biggest worry. With GK around to Deny, even that is lessened. Thoughts?
Even if the 2++ is allowed, I feel like your opponent will just shoot at the other one. I recently played in a small tournament where I opted to give each GMDK a 3++, and it worked pretty well. I'm considering adding a third GMDK, just need make room.
Check out my list building app for 40K and Fantasy:
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
iGuy91 wrote: You love the T-Rex. Its both a hero and a Villain in the first two movies. It is the "king" of dinosaurs. Its the best. You love your T-rex.
Then comes along the frakking Spinosaurus who kills the T-rex, and the movie says "LOVE THIS NOW! HE IS BETTER" But...in your heart, you love the T-rex, who shouldn't have lost to no stupid Spinosaurus. So you hate the movie. And refuse to love the Spinosaurus because it is a hamfisted attempt at taking what you loved, making it TREX +++ and trying to sell you it.
Elbows wrote: You know what's better than a psychic phase? A psychic phase which asks customers to buy more miniatures...
the_scotsman wrote: Dae think the company behind such names as deathwatch death guard deathskullz death marks death korps deathleaper death jester might be bad at naming?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
Chainsword actually does something this edition. Crowe would kill just to get his hands on a chainsword.
The story being of course that he doesn't use the blades' daemonic potential, which I guess accounts for S: user. But I see no reason that an ancient mastercrafted relic blade, daemonic or not, shouldn't at least have token AP and Damage 2
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Crowe is bad. Remove him for some Purifiers instead if you're that concerned about Anti-Horde.
Which is silly as everyone has a Storm Bolter.
Yeah I really don't get why a powerful demonic blade is literally just a chainsword. Sure the smite bomb in CC is cool but still. He does kinda suck flailing his s4 ap- fists around.
Chainsword actually does something this edition. Crowe would kill just to get his hands on a chainsword.
The story being of course that he doesn't use the blades' daemonic potential, which I guess accounts for S: user. But I see no reason that an ancient mastercrafted relic blade, daemonic or not, shouldn't at least have token AP and Damage 2
Yeah... I don't get how it stops being sharp when Crowe picks it up.
"Glory in our suffering, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint"
-Paul of Tarsus
If my post seems goofy, assume I am posting from my phone and the autocorrect elf in my phone is drunk again
Shadowkeepers (4000 points)
3rd Company (3000 points) 
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