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So, what's the actual meta (post-Big Faqs) for Eldar competitive lists?

 DanielFM wrote:
Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?

I always ran mine in Serpents anyway. Regarding on a WC7+ power always seemed to risky to me. Use Cannon Guard to WW strike and mount up the Scytheguard (or hold them back to threaten anyone who tries to get close to your lines.

I don't see that Support Weapons or War Walkers or Fire Prisms look any better now than they did pre-FAQ. If you want a "gunline" you're better off with Crimson Hunters, which can just strafe back and forth in your deployment zone. You can even bring 6 of them without running afoul of the new 0-3 restriction, but your big problem is going to be a lack of good anti-infantry shooting from range.

Building towards a big turn 2 strike probably makes a lot of sense now. Guardians are still a solid deep strike option. Serpents are very good at weathering fire on turn 1 but it's not clear what you'd put in them other than more Guardians. Fire Dragons or Wraithguard maybe, but neither of these are all that impressive. Spears still look fantastic, and in some cases it's still going to make a lot of sense to deep strike them given the new ruling on measuring charge distances with Fly -- with a favorable terrain setup they'll reliably be making it into combat. Hawks were borderline and now I think there's very little reason to take them. Ynnari Reapers are probably still very good, but they're harder to justify without Soulburst.

DE allies are pretty tempting. Better warlord traits and relics are nice. Warriors are a fantastic Troops choice and offer cheap bodies. You can put things in Venoms which have a -1 to hit and so don't stick out as vulnerable targets among a bunch of Alatoic units. Mandrakes are hurt by the FAQ but they do have 18" range, and maybe you don't want to bring them in until the Wave Serpents and Venoms arrive anyway. They inflict 50% more MWs than Rangers per point, also have AP -1, and even have reasonable CC presence. Lhameans are worth a look for much more efficient CC than anything Craftworld has access to. If you really, really want to gunline, DE also do that a bit better with Ravagers, and it might be worth looking at bringing some distintegrator cannons if you don't have a bunch of shurikens already.

You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.

 Karhedron wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:
Now that we can't Webaway Strike and Quicken a unit of D-scythe Wraithguard into range, how are we supposed to play them?
Only transported by Wave Serpents?

I always ran mine in Serpents anyway. Regarding on a WC7+ power always seemed to risky to me. Use Cannon Guard to WW strike and mount up the Scytheguard (or hold them back to threaten anyone who tries to get close to your lines.

Yeah, I will go with WWS Wraithcannon guard, I need the points anyway to pay for the point hikes.

Don't you all think the Shriftshroud should be FAQed? As it can only be used in the first movement phase, you can only deepstrike in your deployment zone. It's absurd and seems contrary to the original intent.
It seems less and less useful now that you can't deepstrike and Quicken, anyway.

 DanielFM wrote:

Don't you all think the Shriftshroud should be FAQed? As it can only be used in the first movement phase, you can only deepstrike in your deployment zone. It's absurd and seems contrary to the original intent.

I think there are a few other upgrades/abilities that need looking at in light of the FAQ. Shiftshroud is one one and the BA stratagem "Upon Wings of Fire" is another.

Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.

On Wings of Fire is also clear. The FAQ states that any ability/power/stratagem that removes you from the battlefield and then “teleports” you somewhere else, counts as the unit re-entering as though they are coming from reserve. Again, this then means on the first turn you’d have to drop the unit into your own deployment area.

Kdash wrote:
Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.

Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again.
If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike.

This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.

 admironheart wrote:
You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.

I would love, absolutely LOVE, if this were possible. But sadly the min unit size for Wraithguard/blades is 5, so they cannot fit into a Falcon.
Unless you are referring to the "undersized unit" rule, which I have yet seen accepted as a valid list building rule in most areas as it is clearly "gaming the system"
The rule is intended to allow you to run models that cannot reach minimum size. As WG come in boxes of 5, you should have 5.

-

 DanielFM wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.

Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again.
If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike.

This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.

Honestly I feel like they're going to make a lot of exceptions if/when this rule leaves beta, like they already have with the Cult Ambush rule. To muddy the waters further, there's also this:

quentra wrote:

 DanielFM wrote:

Kdash wrote:
Shriftshroud RAW is clear atm. You can use it to put your character in deep strike for free (if you want to) and if you do take that option, you unfortunately have to then deep strike straight into your own deployment zone. Still has its uses though.

Clear, yes. Basically useless, also yes. Untrue to the intention of the designers? Yes again.
If it let you deploy on the second turn, you would be able to do real deepstrike. As it is, you are forced to do the shi**y deepstrike.

This should be errata'ed if GW want us to keep one of our few relics useful.

Honestly I feel like they're going to make a lot of exceptions if/when this rule leaves beta, like they already have with the Cult Ambush rule. To muddy the waters further, there's also this:

Meh, i hope someone has replied to that reply telling them to go and update the FAQ document then, otherwise, it'll stay as an "unofficial" errata and not be usable in event games.

Sure, i admit they should probably be allowed to do so, but, it still needs to be done properly.

As for whether it suddenly makes the relic "bad", i'm not sure. I felt like i got more benefit from the additional -1 to hit, rather than its ability to deep strike, as those units i was often putting in deep strike were more aimed at suicide distractions, rather than a character to smash you in the face with.

EDIT TO ADD - The facebook post and reply seems to have been very narrow minded and didn't answer the true question we all want answering. It merely seems to indicate that you can still use the powers etc turn 1, but doesn't mean you can use them to leave your deployment area. One example further down the thread references the idea of you using it to redeploy from one side of your deployment area to another... not often going to happen, but...

FarseerReborn wrote:
So, what's the actual meta (post-Big Faqs) for Eldar competitive lists?

It's only been a few days and the people real good at list building don't post here

Honestly the only thing that's changed are the lists that brought like 25 dark reapers. Reapers are still top 3 EZ, spears are probably #1 now, guardian blobs are fine (keep in mind your opponent can't deepstrike close turn 1 now too, that's huge for our squishy asses).

Only thing I see is other deepstrike strats (besides guardians and maybe d-cannon wraithguard) being shuffled into wave serpents instead.

 Galef wrote:

 admironheart wrote:
You could always take an Aux detachment of 3 Wraithguard/blades in a Falcon if that is more to your liking.

I would love, absolutely LOVE, if this were possible. But sadly the min unit size for Wraithguard/blades is 5, so they cannot fit into a Falcon.
Unless you are referring to the "undersized unit" rule, which I have yet seen accepted as a valid list building rule in most areas as it is clearly "gaming the system"
The rule is intended to allow you to run models that cannot reach minimum size. As WG come in boxes of 5, you should have 5.

-

"my dog ate it"

The faq that made it a -1 CP for going that route pretty much took the teeth out of any argument vs the gaming the system stance.

You only have 3 detachments in a 2k game. If you give up 1 plus a CP your opponent should feel for you, not complain.

Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?

Lithanial wrote:
Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?

Re-deploy powers and stratagems still work as per todays info, pre-game stuff still works. Ranger's to protect are imo still very much needed.

Got an example of something on those lines that is still a threat Ordana? I'm not putting 2 and 2 together there.

Lithanial wrote:
Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?

I played one game with the FAQ rules, and I found that my CP requirements expand to meet the amount of CP I generate. So I still want at least 2 and probably 3 Battalions in any Eldar list, and it's just hard to put those together without Rangers. I feel like you're always going to want at least 3 units of them, and then maybe the other Battalion is Guardians (deep-striking or in Serpents). It's not like your other options are much good. Avengers don't shoot that much better than Rangers even when they're within 18", and they're a lot less durable. You'll always want a couple of units to camp on objectives anyway.

Though a Dark Eldar Battalion is also a pretty easy include. I was playing with 2 Archons (blasters, huskblades, phantasm grenade launchers) and 3 small units of Warriors. Costs about the same as 3 Rangers and 2 Warlocks and brings some very solid GEQs, 2 18/24" lance shots, and some fantastic stratagems.

Lithanial wrote:
Got an example of something on those lines that is still a threat Ordana? I'm not putting 2 and 2 together there.

BA pre-game move with Death Company. BA stratagem (on Wings of Fire) that re-deploys a unit outside 9" Ork "Da-jump". Necron Deceiver redeploy, RG Strike from the Shadows, Alpha Legion Forward Operatives, Genestealer Cult Ambush.
And probably more.

Still not seeing the threat considering those redeploys count as coming in from reserves, so they can't be moved closer than 9" under the new rules so it's still some difficult charges to land.

Or again, am I missing something?

Lithanial wrote:
Still not seeing the threat considering those redeploys count as coming in from reserves, so they can't be moved closer than 9" under the new rules so it's still some difficult charges to land.

Or again, am I missing something?

You're missing the fact that those abilities allow those units to work as they did pre-FAQ with respect to turn 1 charge potential. The potential still exists, and some units, like the BA units, can use a stratagem to 3D6 charge.

Ok cheers. Next question. Does the FAQ result in rangers having to be within our own deployment zone too as that's my current reading of it?

If so, what advantage are they giving as a screen over Dire Avengers (Better Overwatch) or Storm Guardians (Flamers)?

Lithanial wrote:
Ok cheers. Next question. Does the FAQ result in rangers having to be within our own deployment zone too as that's my current reading of it?

If so, what advantage are they giving as a screen over Dire Avengers (Better Overwatch) or Storm Guardians (Flamers)?

Rangers are before the first turn and fall in the same window as Strike from the Shadows and Forward Operative. They can deploy outside your deployment zone.

Understood. Cheers for the patient explanation.

How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?

At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?

Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?

Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.

Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...

fe40k wrote:
How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?

At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?

Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?

Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.

Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...

The Sunrifle blind effect doesn't actually work according to the wording of the rule. Effect runs out at the end of your turn. Without that utility they're pretty worthless IMO, especially compared to last edition.

Spartacus wrote:
The Sunrifle blind effect doesn't actually work according to the wording of the rule. Effect runs out at the end of your turn. Without that utility they're pretty worthless IMO, especially compared to last edition.

Dang, you're right - I mean I SUPPOSE there's a case to be made about shooting a Hellblaster+Banner squad, or using it in overwatch to give a -1 to enemy melee hit rolls, but...

Shame. And I can't even hope for an FAQ/Errata fix, as it's an index option.

So what are thoughts and uses of a max unit of Warp Spiders?

With the CP boost you now can afford to use Lightning Reflexes for several turns.

you can have a gunline with Walkers/Dcannons/Wraiths all hiding behind Wave Serpents

ofc take Spears, bikes, vypers, hawks or whatever to take objectives.

So how would you use Spiders and what would you tag with them stratagem wise and who are their best and worst targets by the math?

fe40k wrote:
How are we feeling about Swooping Hawks?

At the moment, their ability to Drop/Jump/Drop is gone (since you can't do anything on the first turn, and after 3+, they'll just be counted as destroyed), are they worth considering in any capacity?

Would lists be better server seeking a Dark Eldar replacement (Scourges, ?); or perhaps just not trying to replace them at all?

Although they were always overpriced Guardsman, I loved their concepts, deepstriking, dropping bombs, giving a -1 to-hit (SunRifle), and then leaping back up into the sky to do it all again another round somewhere else.

Shame about the reinforcements after turn 3+ are automatically destroyed if they're not on the table rule...

except they're not counted as destroyed:

"Q: If, in a matched play game, I use the Swooping Hawk’s Skyleap ability to remove the unit from the battlefield during the third or subsequent battle round, does the Tactical Reserves rule
mean they count as destroyed?
A: No. The unit must already have arrived on the battlefield before the end of the third battle round in order to be able to use the Skyleap ability.However, if the unit used its Children of Baharroth ability to set up in the skies during deployment, and it had not arrived by the end of third battle round, then it would count as destroyed in a matched play game due to the Tactical Reserves rule."

 admironheart wrote:
So what are thoughts and uses of a max unit of Warp Spiders?

With the CP boost you now can afford to use Lightning Reflexes for several turns.

you can have a gunline with Walkers/Dcannons/Wraiths all hiding behind Wave Serpents

ofc take Spears, bikes, vypers, hawks or whatever to take objectives.

So how would you use Spiders and what would you tag with them stratagem wise and who are their best and worst targets by the math?

the problem with Warp Spiders is they cost about double what guardians do for not a whole lot of benefit.

for around 200 points you're getting 22 Str 6 Ap nil shots that may rend, but often don't. and the same from guardians costs less than half that and a single CP. All that extra points get you are 2 points of strength (which might have merit if all the T5/6 stuff wasn't packing invulns or 3+ armor anyway) and a bit of durability that doesn't actually help all that much.

at the end of the day warp spiders math out to be 18ppm T3 meq, with a gun that means they want to be in range to deny thier own alaitoc trait and then have to rely on thier own internal -1. it just isn't worth it. (This is without even considering the actual real world cost of fielding 2 units of 10!)

tbh one of the easiest things to improve in this codex would be the night spinner and warp spiders by giving them flamer/torrent type effects on the monofil weapons. Why this was removed from the nightspinner I have no clue, and it would go a long way to making warp spiders worth taking for clearing swarms.

Lithanial wrote:
Now people have had a chance to think about the FAQ a little, how are peoples thoughts coming together on Asuryani Battalion configurations when ranger spam to protect against deep-strike isn't necessary?

I think the meta will swing back to serpent spam, maintaining a power squad of reapers with word of the pheonix. It's entirely possible that the eldar army will still look roughly like the LVO's lists did with a few models trimmed off due to point increases as well.