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xmbk wrote:
I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.

Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

and

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.

Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.

 lindsay40k wrote:

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.

Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.

This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).

I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.

Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.

This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).

I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants

If anyone disallows a plastic Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws for having a loadout that the model didn’t come with, then they’d have to disallow any Apothecary on Bike that isn’t a Dark Angel or the old lead one from Rogue Trader.

 lindsay40k wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.

Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.

This is referring to the "old" kits that did have those options, if you bring a new plastic HT kit i'm most likely sure GW at Warhammer world wont allow it (if the new codex doesnt have that option).

I have 2 of these old Metal HT, i honestly use them for Swarmlords now b.c i LOVE the new plastic one for my Flyrants

If anyone disallows a plastic Hive Tyrant with Monstrous Rending Claws for having a loadout that the model didn’t come with, then they’d have to disallow any Apothecary on Bike that isn’t a Dark Angel or the old lead one from Rogue Trader.

If there is a new datasheet for the HT and it doesnt have that option, then why would they let them? The Characters on bikes dont fall into the rule of being illegal to play, b.c they are separate Datasheets.

Khan for an example has 3 datasheets, one foot, on bike, on speeder, the on bike did not make it into the codex, so therefore it is the newest rules set for that, even tho a codex is out and making it a legal choice.

If someone had a Rogue Trader model with old options, again it is legal, but if they are using a NEW model that doesnt have that option, then it is not legal. HENCE why i said "If the new codex doesnt have that option and they are using a Plastic HT with that option, it isnt legal at warhammer world".

If you and your friends agree to playing it, then that is fine, but i'm talking about events, No one cares what you and your friends do at your house.

 lindsay40k wrote:

There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons.

Take as many Hive Tyrants with Monstrous Rending Claws as you like. If HTs get a points cut, bully for you, if MRCs get a points hike, pay it. When they carry your Index-Codex army to the finals of the official GT in Warhammer World, use them to throw your opponent’s Honour Guard with Relic Blades right back into Index Imperium I.

See. These people quote this one line and ignore that this...

Are the rules changing?

Yes, many units’ rules in their codexes will alter from those in the indexes. Sometimes this is to better represent the miniatures and the background, sometimes to balance the game, and sometimes to better fit with the army’s new special rules in the codex itself. In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.


Can I combine units from the index and a codex into one army?

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.


Can I choose to use the rules and/or points for units from my index instead of the new ones in the codex once released?

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

...exists in the same document.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models.

Is the same as

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

But any game that is actually using the rules requires

In all cases, these will then supersede the rules for that datasheet in the index book.

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets.

If Hive Tyrants loose the option to use rending claws you will only be able to use them with your opponents permission.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think it's better to take this debate to YMDC. Thread started here https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/742181.page

 Zimko wrote:

 N.I.B. wrote:


I took your list for a spin against Space Wolves tonight, faced

Bjorn the Fellhanded
Iron priest on TWC
6x Axe-dreads with Blizzard Shields
2x Culexus Assassins
Knight Crusader

I gave up after 3 turns, only had left 3 Rippers and 10 Termagants in hiding plus the Biovores about to be charged. 0-20. Had I had the first turn I would likely gotten a draw or a minor win. It's a fun list, I just ran into a hard counter.

That does sound pretty tough. I appreciate you trying it out. How much did he kill on turn 1? Did you have decent LOS blocking terrain? What mission were you Playing? What happened to your malanthrope? Will you try the list again? Sorry for all the questions.

With the codex coming out soon, I'm not sure how much will change. I'm hoping for at least some useful strategems to take advantage of with 12 CP.

Turn 1 he killed 3 Zoanthropes from one unit and 1 Zoan from the second unit, with shooting from the Knight, Bjorn and assassins. Assassins shut Zoanthrope output down hard within 18" so they didn't really contributed at all in this game.
We had great terrain, lots of LOS blocking pieces but it's hard to keep every piece of a model outside LOS from big units with 12" move coming in from the flanks, and Culexus drops down anywhere outside 9".
We played a good mission from a tournament, Dawn of War deployment and a mix of Maelstrom, Kill points, Eternal War and bonus points from First Blood, Warlord and Linebreaker.

The Malanthrope died in combat with a Dreadnought turn 3, like most everything else. You know, Space Wolf dreadnoughts are better than Swarmlord in combat, for less than half the points. And they can be spammed. Venerable Dreadnought has 3+ armour, 3++ invo save, five S10 attacks, hitting on 2's, AP -3, 1D6 damage, 6+FNP, never deteriorates, still explodes on a '6', cost 145pts, I mean get the feth outa here GW!
Old One Eye bounced on a dread and was killed. Swarmlord stood 3 rounds with another dreadnough and the Iron Priest before crumbling. That same dreadnought also killed Red Terror, 3 Raveners and Malanthrope in the same multi-combat.

Yeah I will probably try the list again, if I can get another game in before the new rules start to drop.

Storm shield dreads are good but they only really shine against us because we lack good anti tank shooting outside of the exocrine.

What we can do against those kinds of models is tarpit them. How fast are they going to win back their points when fearless 4 point gants are tying them up? And if they fall back, they can’t charge.

Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.

I’m hopeful that the codex will make some of these things a little easier for us. We’ll know one way or the other in less than a month!

Wow, I haven't faced 3++ dreads yet. I had no idea those existed. Wish our 'dreads' (fexes) could get anything like that.

 luke1705 wrote:

Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.

Eh, actually we have a lot of ways to generate mortal wounds relative to other armies (Smite, Harpy, Sporocyst, Biovores, Spore Mines, Mucolids, Venomthropes, Toxicrene, Malceptor, Mawloc, Haruspex acid blood + Tentaclids and Shock Cannons vs vehicles), biggest problem is most of them are low range and/or not entirely reliable.

Space Wolf dreads in general are annoying though. Besides aforementioned Venerable Dreadnaughts they also have Bjorn and Murderfang, both of which generally can't be targeted by shooting per character rules and have nasty melee capabilities.

 luke1705 wrote:
Storm shield dreads are good but they only really shine against us because we lack good anti tank shooting outside of the exocrine.

What we can do against those kinds of models is tarpit them. How fast are they going to win back their points when fearless 4 point gants are tying them up? And if they fall back, they can’t charge.

Mortal wounds are also important in getting through invulnerable saves, which we currently have limited access to.

I’m hopeful that the codex will make some of these things a little easier for us. We’ll know one way or the other in less than a month!

Tyranids currently has more ways to generate mortal wounds than any other faction. Granted, just a few are actually decent picks for an army list (Smite from Magus spam, Biovores and Mawlocs).

Tarpit is a viable tactic against that Spacewolf list, it's just hard to do with Zimkos list, and going second.

How are stone crusher carnifexes? I assume wrecking claws are the way to go and that OOE and a malanthrope are mandatory if I take them? What tail weapon should I run and is bio plasma worth it?

RogueApiary wrote:
How are stone crusher carnifexes? I assume wrecking claws are the way to go and that OOE and a malanthrope are mandatory if I take them? What tail weapon should I run and is bio plasma worth it?

Stone crushers currently can end up costing LESS then a decent melee loadout on a normal carnifex while performing better. As to claw or mace that depends on whether you just want to trash vehicles and buildings or if your facing hordes.

I like them for Melee fex's, if i play Melee, i just take them.

If you play PL and want a melee fex then SCC looks to be absolutely the way to go

 Lance845 wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.

Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

and

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.

Yeah, the FAQ specifically mentions using weapon choices from the index on a unit from the codex. It couldn't be more clear. You can't selectively pick FAQ quotes and ignore the ones that directly contradict.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

"There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

That's pretty specific.

I have not played or looked at the new IG/AM codex. Did many of the problems we had with them get solved? What are the new problems?

 Niiai wrote:
I have not played or looked at the new IG/AM codex. Did many of the problems we had with them get solved? What are the new problems?

Using them as allies is even better. Playing against them... even harder. We absolutely have to get to them in CC to have a chance because of their inability to fall back and shoot, but Guard units are more durable and shootier than before, which I didnt realize was possible. Big help is that we have the malanthrope, which is genuinely the only reason we have a chance.

Hmmmm... that sounded a bit bleak and hyperbolic. I hope experiences may wary. I am looking forward to our coex. :-)

 jifel wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
I have not played or looked at the new IG/AM codex. Did many of the problems we had with them get solved? What are the new problems?

Using them as allies is even better. Playing against them... even harder. We absolutely have to get to them in CC to have a chance because of their inability to fall back and shoot, but Guard units are more durable and shootier than before, which I didnt realize was possible. Big help is that we have the malanthrope, which is genuinely the only reason we have a chance.

I was already working on a Tyranid/GSC/Astra M. combo for an upcoming tournament, before the codex was released. Boy oh boy I'am really happy I got some Asta M to join my tyranids because I cannot win with solo tyranids against a solid Astra Militarum army, no way!

- Make your whole army Catachan and every vehicle shoots with 1 reroll d6 for the amount of shots. My army got a manticore, 3x basilisk and 3 wyverns....wow!
- My broodlord used to be the warlord but not anymore. Company commander with relic and warlord trait get's a CP on a 5+ for every command point spend (your own and the enemies).
- Relic dagger gives my commissar the opportunity to deploy himself + 30 conscripts, 6 inch from any table edge (9 inch from the enemy) out of reserves.

Conscripts are only max 30 models and don't respond to orders on a 4+. who cares.... their still cheap and decent bubble wrap and the rest shoots harder then before!

Astra became sick....

Huh. Nid army, AM Warlord. Like it

 lindsay40k wrote:
Huh. Nid army, AM Warlord. Like it

Could not use forgeworld (malanthrope) and with spam restriction, I started to swap tyranid units with astra M units. Now I only bring a broodlord, 3x biovores and 3 mawlocs.

Biovores can drop mines for blocking and also forces enemy psychic units to 'smite' the closest unit/mine. After the manticore and basilisk shooting I can use the biovores to shoot single shots 'split fire' to make sure I finish of the badly wounded vehicles/MC's without overkilling them.

Also really like the broodlord. Don't understand why a lot of tyranid players leave him out.

xmbk wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

xmbk wrote:
I'm not aware of GW saying anything that supports the claim that index points can only be used for Open and Narrative. Obviously tournaments can do whatever they want, and some type of standard may develop. But until then, refusing to play someone who is following GW's guidelines is kind of harsh.

Look at the FAQ questions I quoted right above you. 3 questions say the codex replaces the index for all rules where an update occurs. The last one specifically states, and I quote again,

In your own games, if you and your opponent agree, you can, of course, play with whatever rules you like.

In all future publications and official events though, it will be assumed that you’re using the most recent rules and Datasheets. It will also be assumed that you’re using the most up to date points for matched play, in this case, those included in the codex.

and

The datasheets in the new codexes overwrite the same datasheets in the index books. You can certainly use units with updated datasheets alongside units from the index that have yet to be updated. Once a unit has been covered in the codex though, we assume you’re using the latest version.

Those are very clear statements about what is expected and allowed officially. Again, personally, you and your opponent are free to make up any rules you want. You can decided tac marines cost 1ppm and every model can bring a lascanon, and as long as you and your opponent agree GW tells you guys to have fun. But the rules provided require the most up to date datasheets. Which means it only allows the points and options of the most up to date datasheets and publications.

Yeah, the FAQ specifically mentions using weapon choices from the index on a unit from the codex. It couldn't be more clear. You can't selectively pick FAQ quotes and ignore the ones that directly contradict.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/07/05/codexes-your-questions-answered-july-5gw-homepage-post-2/

"There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.
Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).
They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."

That's pretty specific.

Please carry that discussion to ymdc where a thread is 3 pages deep discussing it. Trying to keep a rules debate where it belongs.

So with the new AM codex (and an impending Tyranid codex) I’m thinking Tyranids might finally have their day in the competitive scene.

The biggest issue with mass turn 1 charges (which Tyranids always have done well) is that we previously had no way of clearing out the chaff and would be trading Genestealers for conscripts (not a great trade obviously).

But now with AM backup, we should be able to clear out those chaff models with Wyverns, Basilisks and Leman Russes. Suddenly, Swarmlord pods in and ushers a unit of Genestealers into the heart of the opponent’s army. Because that can happen any time during the shooting phase!

Also I’m excited to see what Tyranids will have for chapter tactics. -1 to hit will be huge, as that seems to be pretty stock for most new armies, especially if it can stack with the Malanthrope! All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!

 luke1705 wrote:
All of a sudden, Guilliman lists are only re-rolling 1’s! Suck it false emperor!

It's even worse for them, actually. They still only reroll 1s and 2s... then they subtract 2 from their final results. So all those 3s and 4s they got are wasted.

Word! If we can play Alpha legion Nids....Drop a big Infiltrate Gunline and hose of the chaff then Tunnel T2 or T3...good times. Heck if I can build a Brigade, I'll try dropping two Tervigons, And Three Broods of 'gants(Maybe Infiltrtrate two, and Trygon in a Brood of Devil'gants). then Mawloc, and Lictor to Victory!

Looking at some interesting things you can do mixing AM with nids via GSC...

3x Primaris psykers via supreme command (120 pts)

1 is your warlord with the gain CP on a 5+ ability, and you can use "Take Cover" stratagem on your nids.

"Use this stratagem in your opponent's shooting phase when your opponent selects one of your units as a target. You can add 1 to saving throws you make for this unit until the end of the phase."

Only strat in AM that doesn't specify <Regiment> or ASTRA MILITARUM.

While I'm in the camp that invulns aren't technically saving throws (Lets leave that debate for YMDC), if you play somewhere that it is, that means you can have 4++ Genestealers for 1CP.

Outside of the obvious strong AM unit choices, just some stuff I noticed that we may get some mileage out of.

Index vs codex seems to have come to a head with this.

Publications in use: All current and in-print Warhammer 40,000 Index books and Codexes from Games Workshop and Forge World, unless their release falls on the weekend of the event. We expect you to use the most current datasheets for your models – e.g. those found in a Codex rather than an Index if a Codex is available for your army. This means that you may use Faction-appropriate Index datasheets that might not appear in your Codex (such as Chaplain on Bike)

From GWs Grand Tournament https://warhammerworld.games-workshop.com/warhammer-40000-grand-tournament/

Reinforcing the must use the most recent datasheet. If, when our codex shows up, rending claws are not an option for Hive Tyrants (which will likely be the case since they don't have the option in the box) they will not be a legal option for anything but your own open games with opponents agreement. I.E. not worth discussing in a tactics thread. We'll see what situation that is in in a couple weeks.

Take Cover being usable on like Barbed Hierodules is never surviving the FAQ

 lindsay40k wrote:
Take Cover being usable on like Barbed Hierodules is never surviving the FAQ

Probably not.

But in the meantime you can deploy a commissar with 30 Catachan conscripts (+1 strength) 6 inch from any table edge outside 9 inch of the enemy (relic dagger). Put psychic barrier on them with the primaris psyker (+1 save) and if anybody tries to shoot them you use the stratagem to push the armor save to 3+. power armor conscripts !!