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 Mr Morden wrote:
Stompa Boss would be fun - one who can get out when his ride gets smashed like the Knight character :}

There used to be an apoc datasheet where the big mek operating it could exit the stompa in a kopta if it was destroyed.

Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really wish we had our old Kustom Stompa rules back.

On one hand the Stompa is a pretty good value in terms of the size of the model relative to it's price in money. On the other hand it is severely lacking in options, which is bizarre for a giant ork machine. I think it would be worth the trade if they were to rebox it with some additional sprues to give it a bunch of options (like the Baneblade kit) even if they raised the price to that of the Baneblade.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really wish we had our old Kustom Stompa rules back.

On one hand the Stompa is a pretty good value in terms of the size of the model relative to it's price in money. On the other hand it is severely lacking in options, which is bizarre for a giant ork machine. I think it would be worth the trade if they were to rebox it with some additional sprues to give it a bunch of options (like the Baneblade kit) even if they raised the price to that of the Baneblade.

Agreed, those rules/point values actually made it somewhat useable. If they did add them back, I feel like they would probably screw it up and make all the options a ton of points more than theyre worth because of "potential"

Yeah that is my major bugbear with the kit. Even weapons are not easily posable for either arm! For orks this is REALLY bizzare kit.

Additional sprue would be fun. Alas I don't think we would see that for ages if ever :(

Been thinking what point values heavy weapons should be to get me include some in boyz squads. Death skulls and bad moons I could see getting some rokkits if price drops to reasonable. For evil suns and goffs I could see putting big shootas at somewhere around 2 pts per big shoota. 1 pts would be pretty much automatic take. 3 would start to get bit pricey so could be left out if stuck on points.

But death skull 1 reroll and bad moon rerolling 1's weapons that pack most punch are obvious choices. Especially with death skull with just 1 reroll per unit.

 Billagio wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Sorry to beat a dead horse, but I really wish we had our old Kustom Stompa rules back.

On one hand the Stompa is a pretty good value in terms of the size of the model relative to it's price in money. On the other hand it is severely lacking in options, which is bizarre for a giant ork machine. I think it would be worth the trade if they were to rebox it with some additional sprues to give it a bunch of options (like the Baneblade kit) even if they raised the price to that of the Baneblade.

Agreed, those rules/point values actually made it somewhat useable. If they did add them back, I feel like they would probably screw it up and make all the options a ton of points more than theyre worth because of "potential"

they will come back, "for open play only", ala the custom build Land Raider stuff, and likely the only way looted vehicles are coming back

When it comes to stuff that doesn't have a model currently in production I don't necessarily mind them putting out data sheets that only have Power Level and not points. For instance, I have the old Deffrolla Battle Fortress model and I'm happy that they released a data sheet for it even though it can't be used in tournament play. I would also be pretty happy with some fun rules for looted vehicles even if they were Open Play only.

On the other hand, I wish they'd come out with ork chassis and with weapon options that would allow many common vehicles from other races to be fairly well represented. So what I'm asking is for is kind of both things: looted vehicle rules that essentially just let us take whatever vehicle and slap on an orky WS and BS (but Open Play only), plus a few more ork vehicles that let us better represent various vehicles in matched play, because there's a lot of stuff that doesn't really fit into the Trukk or Battlewagon sizes and statlines.

The Big Trakk helps a lot when it comes to trying to represent various looted vehicles and ork vehicles that don't currently have rules. It's got kind of a weird profile though. Also, it seems like (at least locally) there is resistance to people using non-official Forge World models. I think that's both because it's seen as not supporting the company, and also because sometimes people are just trying to take advantage of a broken Forge World unit. Plus in other places it sounds like Forge World isn't welcome at all.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 lolman1c wrote:
I'm pretty cool with whatnhas been posted. Only 2 things right now that will tell me whether i love or hate the codex.

1. Points. If points too high then all our fancy new stuff is screwed.

2. Stompa. If gw can't figure out how to fix the stompa after their knights codex then i will be sad.

hoping so on the first part of points

not holding my breath on the gettign the stompa right. its the orks x10 it has crazy possible performance that it simply does not live up to barring hot dice. On the business front barring a enw stompa kit I and it including an upgrade spru and leaving current ones a trash then I cannot see GW deciding to make such an old model powerful. I am guessing normal stompa midtier at best, probably still overpriced trash tier.

Very true, the Stompa has HUGE potential damage if you have unbelievably hot dice. The Supa Gatla can theoretically dish out 36 S7 -2 AP 1 damage shots a turn, realistically though its closer to 14 shots with about 5 hitting a turn, and that has a 1/6th chance to disable the gun for the rest of the game. The DeffKannon can theoretically dish out 6 S10 -4 AP D6 damage shots a turn, but realistically its 3 shots and 1 hit.

Adding to that, theoretically 40 T8 wounds with a 3+ save is pretty damn tough to kill, in reality though it isn't that tough to kill and actually clocks in at fairly easy to kill when comparing cost/durability. You can take just under 3 Land Raiders for a similar cost and that equates to 48 T8 wounds with a 2+ to save (not to mention the land raiders providing a helluva lot more dakka)

Beyond a massive price cut, the only way I can think of making the Stompa remotely worth taking is to double, possibly TRIPLE its dakka. The Supa Gatla for instance, isntead of 2D6 shots hitting on 5s it should be 6D6 shots (that averages out to 21 shots a turn and 7 hits) The DeffKannon instead of being D6 shots at S10 it should be 3D6 S10 shots (averages again 10-11 shots and 3 hits).

When I did the math the Deff Kannon came out to be roughly equivalent to a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on an Imperial Knight. The RFBC was a little better overall, but it depended on what was being shot at. This was counting DakkaDakkaDakka but not counting clan or household abilities. Definitely not good on a thousand point model.

From the perspective of making weapon stats try to roughly match up With the fluff* I wonder if the Deff Kannon is sufficient? It's kind of like a Demolisher Cannon with triple the range and double the shots? That's a pretty powerful statline, but on the other hand it's a bonkers huge gun. It also appears to be self-loading so I could easily see it doubling its shots.

Just to be clear, the paragraph above was more about giving the gun a statline to match its model and fluff* and less about its effectiveness on the tabletop. Kind of like how even if they were to fix the Killkannon by making it extra cheap it would still disappoint me in how weak its statline is. Or how it's a shame that the Vanquisher is worse than a standard LRBT at taking out tanks.

*I know that weapons on the tabletop aren't nearly as lethal as they are in the fluff. I'm thinking more in terms of how they compare relative to each other.

 Perfect Organism wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Played by the leaked rules. Won a tourney.

Well done!

Can I ask for some more details?

I assume by 'leaked rules' you mean DDD and the clan trait.

Which clan(s) did you use? What was your list like?

How large and competitive was the tourney?

What kind of level do you usually play at? Do you expect to win tourneys of this kind given a reasonably strong codex?

Do you feel the new rules contributed significantly to your win?

It was a small local tourney with 6 people involved. Not top competitive but lists were noticeably stronger than average.

I brought deffskullz: bikerboss with kskorcha, painboy, wierdboy, 2*30 choppas, 2*30 shootas, 3 kmk, 2*5 tankbustas with squigs in a trukk
And evil sunz: wierdboy, 2*5meganobz(3 pairs of killsaws in each), little mek.
Ddd was used.
Also used the leaked strategems with some approximations. 3 cp for greentide - to res a half-dead squad of boyz - once per game, like tide of traitors, also we ruled it out that it only reses up to the max initial number of boyz in one squad - means no 60 regenerated boyz after mob up, only 30; 3 cp to fight twice, 1 cp to deepstrike a unit up to 20 pl.

Other strategems weren't used.

The extra rules were huge. For example, meganobz, while still not amazing, start to have a place when you can deepstrike them. And when they need a 8 to charge, your chances of making a charge quickly go from below 50% to 66%. Deffskullz are great for about anything i've brought there. Fighting twice is quite handy, though, not over the top good. Res a squad and outflank it is amazing. More for demoralizing than anything but still.
For example, necrons killed 24 out of 27 boyz with tesla immortals and than couldn't finish the last 3 boyz off as they were out of los. Well, now they're back to 30 and right in the backlines. Dark angels killed around 60 boyz on their first turn before i got to move. Well, now this 2 strong squad (after morale) goes back to 30.
We played 2k but the smaller the game -the more devastating greentide is.

I would say ability to deep strike up to 20PL worth of units will be more than 1CP. Dropping gorkanaut or 2 units of boyz etc...For 1CP? Nope don't see it being 1CP. More like 2.

tneva82 wrote:
I would say ability to deep strike up to 20PL worth of units will be more than 1CP. Dropping gorkanaut or 2 units of boyz etc...For 1CP? Nope don't see it being 1CP. More like 2.

1 cp per squad of course. With a squad being less than 20 cp. So, regular ds with all the regular ds limitations - like no t1 ds outside deployment zone, but with cp limitation instead of unit type limitation. We don't know how it works exactly yet, so just assumed it works this way.

 koooaei wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
I would say ability to deep strike up to 20PL worth of units will be more than 1CP. Dropping gorkanaut or 2 units of boyz etc...For 1CP? Nope don't see it being 1CP. More like 2.

1 cp per squad of course. With a squad being less than 20 cp. So, regular ds with all the regular ds limitations - like no t1 ds outside deployment zone, but with cp limitation instead of unit type limitation. We don't know how it works exactly yet, so just assumed it works this way.

Except current rumour seems to be 20PL total. Not 1 unit. So 2 units 10 PL each would be fair play.

This is btw why I wouldn't much put stock on plays with leaks. We don't even know the rules yet so hard to play. All we know is ddd.

Yeah, this might be the case. Will change how things work a bit. Besides we don't know about transports. If you're not restricted to 1 unit, you might want to get msu to maximise your tarpit chances.
Might want to ds a couple speedfreak megabosses if they get a discount in the codex. Or multiple bikerbosses.

I'm this close to buying a Gorkanaut and using the rumored Tellyporta and Ramming Speed combo on it... I mean I've wanted to get a Gorkanaut for a while now but they kinda suck at the moment, so I kinda want that combo to be true... but if it turns out to be false info then at least I would have a sweet model on my shelf... dunno what to do.

 Weazel wrote:
I'm this close to buying a Gorkanaut and using the rumored Tellyporta and Ramming Speed combo on it... I mean I've wanted to get a Gorkanaut for a while now but they kinda suck at the moment, so I kinda want that combo to be true... but if it turns out to be false info then at least I would have a sweet model on my shelf... dunno what to do.

wait until you have the codex in hand. I bought a gork in 7th due to rumors and it was a huge mistake.

Gorkanaut is worth getting just for the model alone. You can bring it in friendly games it will do fine

 Billagio wrote:
Gorkanaut is worth getting just for the model alone. You can bring it in friendly games it will do fine

yes it's cool, but the OP has started talking about using it with the different stratagems so naturally he is interested in rules to some degree.

 Billagio wrote:
Gorkanaut is worth getting just for the model alone. You can bring it in friendly games it will do fine

Yeah he\s great target practice for your friends

So there is going to be a Moonclan Nightvault warband coming out (I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the new troggoth was part of a Moonclan gang).

Do you guys think we might see a bigger Destruction release in October? Orruktober maybe? I know this is a 40k thread but there is a lot of conversion potential between 40k and AoS.

More like Grotober for AoS I’d say. Unless they release the Darkoath before Moonclan.

SemperMortis wrote:
the Stompa has HUGE potential damage if you have unbelievably hot dice. The Supa Gatla can theoretically dish out 36 S7 -2 AP 1 damage shots a turn, realistically though its closer to 14 shots with about 5 hitting a turn, and that has a 1/6th chance to disable the gun for the rest of the game. The DeffKannon can theoretically dish out 6 S10 -4 AP D6 damage shots a turn, but realistically its 3 shots and 1 hit.

Beyond a massive price cut, the only way I can think of making the Stompa remotely worth taking is to double, possibly TRIPLE its dakka. The Supa Gatla for instance, isntead of 2D6 shots hitting on 5s it should be 6D6 shots (that averages out to 21 shots a turn and 7 hits) The DeffKannon instead of being D6 shots at S10 it should be 3D6 S10 shots (averages again 10-11 shots and 3 hits).

It needs far more dakka to be remotely ok. Even if your dice are on fire it doesn't do very much damage for 1000 points. The supa gatla will do less infantry killing than a 160ish point leman russ punisher. The DeffKannon is basically 6 lascannons that can't hit for crap. Devestators in marines can bring 4 that hit on 3's for about 150 points. A vendetta brings 5 or 6 LCs for 200ish.

After you factor in the BS 5 you end up with about 200 points worth of offensive dakka.

cmspano wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
the Stompa has HUGE potential damage if you have unbelievably hot dice. The Supa Gatla can theoretically dish out 36 S7 -2 AP 1 damage shots a turn, realistically though its closer to 14 shots with about 5 hitting a turn, and that has a 1/6th chance to disable the gun for the rest of the game. The DeffKannon can theoretically dish out 6 S10 -4 AP D6 damage shots a turn, but realistically its 3 shots and 1 hit.

Beyond a massive price cut, the only way I can think of making the Stompa remotely worth taking is to double, possibly TRIPLE its dakka. The Supa Gatla for instance, isntead of 2D6 shots hitting on 5s it should be 6D6 shots (that averages out to 21 shots a turn and 7 hits) The DeffKannon instead of being D6 shots at S10 it should be 3D6 S10 shots (averages again 10-11 shots and 3 hits).

It needs far more dakka to be remotely ok. Even if your dice are on fire it doesn't do very much damage for 1000 points. The supa gatla will do less infantry killing than a 160ish point leman russ punisher. The DeffKannon is basically 6 lascannons that can't hit for crap. Devestators in marines can bring 4 that hit on 3's for about 150 points. A vendetta brings 5 or 6 LCs for 200ish.

After you factor in the BS 5 you end up with about 200 points worth of offensive dakka.

that was mine and his point though. The stompa has more melee capability than a lot of knights so that has to be taken in to account on the less firepower than say a Castillan. BUT I do think GW took into account the dmg potential rather than what actually hits. its nothing new for the book, or the game in general. I think GW just assumes everything hits on 3's. and gets rerolls forgetting orks can get neither. Honestly I don't really want more firepower if it means a point incease. compared to otehr models the Stompa really should be around 400 points. maybe 450 if it gets its own 5++

Another problem is how quickly it degrades. It's got a lot of wounds, but once it has taken half it is only moving 6" and hitting on 5+ in melee. For its last ten wounds it moves 4" and hitting on 6+.

If it had a ton of dakka I could see the damage chart not being as big of a deal, as it would transition from being a melee unit to being a gun turret. No increase in shooting but a massive price drop could also possiblely fix it.

I think another part of the problem is that GW seems to have overvalued transport capacity in general, and the Stompa has A lot of transport capacity.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Another problem is how quickly it degrades. It's got a lot of wounds, but once it has taken half it is only moving 6" and hitting on 5+ in melee. For its last ten wounds it moves 4" and hitting on 6+.

Which is ironic seeing orks are the faction that would be very fluffy for SLOW degrading. The orks are infamous for soaking up fire seemingly without much of an effect.

If I could take a Stompa without gunz I would. It pretty much only kills anything in assault.

You can build a klawstompa using the Kustom Stompa rules in the FW index. It's still completely garbage though.

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
When I did the math the Deff Kannon came out to be roughly equivalent to a Rapid Fire Battle Cannon on an Imperial Knight. The RFBC was a little better overall, but it depended on what was being shot at. This was counting DakkaDakkaDakka but not counting clan or household abilities. Definitely not good on a thousand point model.

From the perspective of making weapon stats try to roughly match up With the fluff* I wonder if the Deff Kannon is sufficient? It's kind of like a Demolisher Cannon with triple the range and double the shots? That's a pretty powerful statline, but on the other hand it's a bonkers huge gun. It also appears to be self-loading so I could easily see it doubling its shots.

Just to be clear, the paragraph above was more about giving the gun a statline to match its model and fluff* and less about its effectiveness on the tabletop. Kind of like how even if they were to fix the Killkannon by making it extra cheap it would still disappoint me in how weak its statline is. Or how it's a shame that the Vanquisher is worse than a standard LRBT at taking out tanks.

*I know that weapons on the tabletop aren't nearly as lethal as they are in the fluff. I'm thinking more in terms of how they compare relative to each other.

RFBC on a Knight is 72" range, S8 Ap-2 D3 damage 2D6 shots hitting on 3s. the Deff Kannon is 72" range, S10 AP-4 D6 damage D6 shots hitting on 5s. The RFBC Is better literally across the board against every target T8 and below (95% of the game). 2D6 shots averages 7 shots hitting on 3s = about 5 hits a turn on average. against a T7 or less model that is 3-4 wounds and with -2 AP against a 3+ save that is 2-3 wounds doing 4-6 damage on average. The Deff Kannon is 3-4 shots on average, 1 hit on average, against T9 or less that is .66 of a wound, with -4 AP its going to go through most armor saves and do 3-4 damage on average. So you have a 2/3rds chance to do 3.5 damage on average compared to a Knights RFBC which AVERAGES 4-6 damage a turn

As far as a stompa being better in CC? Well not really. Against most targets a smart player will use the slash profile which is 12 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2 against T5 and below. Against another knight that is wounding on 3s. So against a Knight you get 8 hits on average, 5-6 wounds on average, -2 AP brings a knights armor to 5+ so he will save 2 of those wounds on average so 3-4 go through for D3 damage each averaging 6-8 damage. using the other profile its 4 attacks hitting on 3s so 3 hits, wounding on 2s so probably 3 wounds and 18 damage. I would probably use that profile and hope my dice don't betray me But the Knight paladin has 4 attacks, hitting on 3s wounding on 3s so 3 hits 2 wounds and 12 damage on average....So the knight hits harder with ranged weapons and in CC is only marginally worse. in trade offs the Stompa can carry 20 models (whoopee) and has a plethora of lesser (crappier) guns, the Knight on the other hand has a 5+ built in invuln vs shooting. Ohh, and you can take 2 Knight Paladins for cheaper then a single Stompa....

So I would say a Stompa is a lot more fairly priced at around 300-350pts without changing any stats. if you want to make it worth 500ish you need to double its dakka easily and probably give it a 5+ invuln built in.

tneva82 wrote:

 Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:
Another problem is how quickly it degrades. It's got a lot of wounds, but once it has taken half it is only moving 6" and hitting on 5+ in melee. For its last ten wounds it moves 4" and hitting on 6+.

Which is ironic seeing orks are the faction that would be very fluffy for SLOW degrading. The orks are infamous for soaking up fire seemingly without much of an effect.

It almost feels like the TRIED to have this mentality when 8th started. Our vehicles, for their price point, actually had a good number of wounds compared to others, but crap saves. This, in theory, is fine, but as 8th marched on, the degradation table really hurt us as well as the prevalence of high-damage weapons. Our vehicles in general need more wounds and a more generous wounds table. Make our vehicles keep running on fumes, but when they wreck, they wreck.

SemperMortis wrote:

As far as a stompa being better in CC? Well not really. Against most targets a smart player will use the slash profile which is 12 attacks hitting on 3s wounding on 2 against T5 and below. Against another knight that is wounding on 3s. So against a Knight you get 8 hits on average, 5-6 wounds on average, -2 AP brings a knights armor to 5+ so he will save 2 of those wounds on average so 3-4 go through for D3 damage each averaging 6-8 damage. using the other profile its 4 attacks hitting on 3s so 3 hits, wounding on 2s so probably 3 wounds and 18 damage. I would probably use that profile and hope my dice don't betray me But the Knight paladin has 4 attacks, hitting on 3s wounding on 3s so 3 hits 2 wounds and 12 damage on average....So the knight hits harder with ranged weapons and in CC is only marginally worse. in trade offs the Stompa can carry 20 models (whoopee) and has a plethora of lesser (crappier) guns, the Knight on the other hand has a 5+ built in invuln vs shooting. Ohh, and you can take 2 Knight Paladins for cheaper then a single Stompa....
.

Ummm...Your definitions are bit weird. You say knight is only marginally worse in h2h when face to face stompa does 50% more damage. Meanwhile shooting say against T7 3+ target stompa does 2,72222222195 and knight RFBC does 4,148148135703704 which is, wait for it, 52% more than stompa would do. Against T8(say duel between the 2) advantage then turns toward stompa. T4 or worse advantage for knight increases. So how come you say flat out "harder with shooting and CC only marginally worse" when advantage is about same? More accurate thus would be "knight shoots marginally better and is marginally worse".

Issue is less with damage output and more about survivability and high price cost. But "better at shooting, only marginally worse in h2h" is somewhat dishonest.

And- you can take two for every Stompa?