Switch Theme:

YMTC - rapid fire and terminators  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Poll
READ BELOW FOR THE QUESTION.
OPTION A (read below for details).
OPTION B (read below for details).
OPTION C (read below for details).

View results
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

 

FOR THIS POLL, PLEASE ANSWER HOW YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY THE GAME, NOT NECESSARILY WHAT THE RULES AS WRITTEN (RAW) SAY.





The Rapid Fire rules on page 29 of the rulebook say: "An infantry model armed with a rapid fire weapon can shoot twice at targets up to 12 [inches] away. If an infantry model has not moved, it may instead fire once at targets over 12 [inches] away, up to its maximum range."



The lastest Terminator armor rules say (page 86 of the Chaos Space Marine Codex): "Models in Terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."



[FYI on loyalist vs. Chaos terminators -- No published codex or FAQ, loyalist or otherwise, specifically says that Terminators always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons]





QUESTION: How do you choose play with Terminators firing rapid fire weapons?



OPTION A. I play the rules as written: Terminators with rapid fire weapons who wish to fire up to their maximum range have to remain stationary in the movement phase first.



OPTION B. I play that terminators are able to move and fire rapid fire weapons to their full range (generally 24 inches), just like they do with heavy weapons.



OPTION C. Something else entirely: reply exactly what it is below.




I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





Option A.

I must say that that's the RAW. If you look into the Tau (or any other army that can move and fire rapid fire weapons once to full range) they have a specific rule that states that they can do that.

Besides ..... being able to charge after rapid firing more than makes up for the one round where the "good guys" are out of rapid fire range.
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Except for the fact that the "good guys" can also charge after firing?

But what it "should" be isn't really important here. Just how people actually choose to play it is.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in au
Fresh-Faced New User





The Chaos terminator is the ONLY unit that can rapid fire and then charge!
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Except for bikes, Dark & Blood Angel terminators (who have the same rules as the Chaos Termies).

But my point was simply that the loyalist marines can fire with their storm bolters before charging in. I know it isn't "rapid firing" but you seemed to imply that the Chaos Terminators were getting something extra that their loyalist counterparts weren't getting, which may be technically true (with the old SM codex wording, of course), but in pratical terms the loyalist terminator armor is far superior because they carry storm bolters which don't suffer from this rapid fire issue.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Besides the fact that loyalists with Rapid-fire weapons can shoot and charge too as they can move and fire heavies...

   
Made in fi
Calculating Commissar







Option B for me. I don't play Marines or Chaos Marines, though, so the point is moot for me personally, but I choose to be of the opinion that if you can fire an assault cannon while walking, rapid-firing a combi-bolter should also be possible. All that being said, I do recognize that the rules say what they say, and I would not get into an argument about it if an unfavorable RAW ruling was passed upon me.

So dig me a grave where I can rave and scribble for all time
Dig me a grave where I can vent articulate splenetic rhyme
Dig me a grave where I can nurture a hatred most sublime
For the fools who made this mess and think it not a crime 
   
Made in ca
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers






Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.

Posted By yakface on 10/16/2007 1:42 AM

But my point was simply that the loyalist marines can fire with their storm bolters before charging in. I know it isn't "rapid firing" but you seemed to imply that the Chaos Terminators were getting something extra that their loyalist counterparts weren't getting, which may be technically true (with the old SM codex wording, of course), but in pratical terms the loyalist terminator armor is far superior because they carry storm bolters which don't suffer from this rapid fire issue.

Agreed.  My thought isn't even if they are deep-striking or charging into combat but if they are marching across the field. 

Chaos termies have twin-linked bolters as a substitute for storm bolters.  If they are marching down the table from the lines they cannot lay down a torrent of fire from their small arms if they cannot fire their bolters at maximum range.  Ditto any characters in terminator armour.

Dakka Articles: Eldar Tactica | In Defence of Starcannons (math) | Ork Takktika Quick Tips
taco online: WoW PvP
ur hax are nubz 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Very interesting. Right down the middle so far.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

Posted By Agamemnon2 on 10/16/2007 4:14 AM
 I choose to be of the opinion that if you can fire an assault cannon while walking, rapid-firing a combi-bolter should also be possible.
Two things:
1: There is no such thing as 'rapid-firing a combi-bolter' (or any other weapon) under 4th edition 40K.

'Rapid Fire' is a class of weapon, not a mode of firing.

You can fire a rapid fire weapon, which results in one shot if the target is more than 12" away (and you didn't move) or two shots if the target is within 12".


2: Whether or not they can fire two shots on the move isn't in question. It's whether or not they can fire the single shot at full range after moving that is being polled.

 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




I chose B. If you can move and fire Heavy Weapons w/o any restrictions in Terminator armor, then you can move & fire the Chaos Twin Linked Bolter as well. If this suit of armor is so strong it can handle the recoil of high profile weapons & still move, then it's obvious it can handle moving &  firing small arms as well.

sXe for life! 
   
Made in us
Executing Exarch





Los Angeles

I play A because that's what the rules state. However I think they should be changed to allow terminators to fire rapid fire weapons at full range even after they moved.

**** Phoenix ****

Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





Paso Robles, CA, USA

I chose B. If they can move an fire heavy weapons, they should be able to move and fire Rapid Fire weapons to 24". Goes against RAW, but sometimes RAW is dumb.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings.
Look on My works, Ye Mighty, and despair.

Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:Holy Space Marine on a Stick.

This conversation has even begun to boggle my internet-hardened mind.

A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Concur on what Ozymandias said.

I suspect that the developers intended that being able to move and fire heavy weapons would imply stationary platform, but that they failed to state it.

Even if my suspicion is wrong, I'll continue to give terminators the benefit of the stationary platform rule until something specific is published. (For the record, I don't have any terminators that benefit from this, only my opponents have.)
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


I used to agree with you guys 100% before the new Chaos codex. But look at how careful the wording is: they made absolutely clear that you can charge after firing rapid fire weapons.

I find it pretty difficult to believe that they would take the time to write all that out about rapid fire weapons being able to charge but at the same time totally miss the fact that they can't move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range.

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.


I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in ca
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers






Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.

Posted By yakface on 10/18/2007 3:21 AM

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.

It can't just be a typo/oversight?  GW's editors have made mistakes before.

Here's a spelling error from the CAN store:

They just keep comming and comming and comming and comming.... This Apocalyplse formation contains 120 Tyranid Gaunts. That is over $75 in savings!

At least they didn't spell it with a 'u'



Sorry

Dakka Articles: Eldar Tactica | In Defence of Starcannons (math) | Ork Takktika Quick Tips
taco online: WoW PvP
ur hax are nubz 
   
Made in us
Phanobi





Paso Robles, CA, USA

GW rules writing and "beyond the scope of reason" don't really get along.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings.
Look on My works, Ye Mighty, and despair.

Chris Gohlinghorst wrote:Holy Space Marine on a Stick.

This conversation has even begun to boggle my internet-hardened mind.

A More Wretched Hive of Scum and Villainy 
   
Made in au
Revving Ravenwing Biker






Sydney, Australia

Posted By Ozymandias on 10/18/2007 9:18 AM
GW rules writing and "beyond the scope of reason" don't really get along.

Ozymandias, King of Kings


Sad but quite often true. Sometimes a simple MS Word spell check would save hundreds of confused posts.

   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Option A. The wording just seems too specific and deliberate to be an oversight.
   
Made in de
Rampaging Carnifex






Franconia

Short question is this the exact quote from the english dex:
Models in Terminator armor are capable of moving and firing with heavy weapons and may assault after firing rapid fire and heavy weapons."
?

Because the german version says "after firing rapid fire or heavy weapons.". The guys who translate here have shown very often that they do translation mistakes so I just want to know if they did it again.

I know when it is closing time. - Rascal Mod

"Some people measure common sense with a ruler others with a potato."- Making Money Terry Pratchett
"what's with all the hate go paint something you lazy bastards" - NAVARRO
"You don't need pants for the victory dance." -BAWTRM
 
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


Yep, that's the exact quote.

Although I don't see any real difference between using an "and" and an "or" in this case.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in de
Rampaging Carnifex






Franconia

Well not so well translated by me either but in german the rule would says that you got to chose between heavy or rapid fire before you charge.

I know when it is closing time. - Rascal Mod

"Some people measure common sense with a ruler others with a potato."- Making Money Terry Pratchett
"what's with all the hate go paint something you lazy bastards" - NAVARRO
"You don't need pants for the victory dance." -BAWTRM
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




It's gotta be RAW... otherwise it's just another 40K Tournament. IE: CH33T2W1NL0L!!!.

Option A all the way. If you're not using the 40K rules... why even play 40K? There are other rulesets out there.. some of them even make sense.
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





I'd agree with Yakface: Choice A seems to be the logical one, as well as the most charitable reading of the rules.
   
Made in us
Perfect Shot Black Templar Predator Pilot





Greenville

From a math-based perspective, I see this as a situation like that of Differentiability and Continuity of a funtion.

If a funtion is Differentiable, it is implied that the function is also continuous.

If a funtion is continuous, it is not necessarily differentiable. Sorry about the geeky analogy.

To me, making the "move and fire with heavy weapons" bit backwards compatible to rapid fire weapons is too far a stretch from RAW. As much as I'd like to see Chaos Termies get this rule fixed so that they could fire at max range with their combi-bolters, the rules clearly state otherwise. Now, if my friend who plays Iron Warriors were to bring it up, I'd say: "to hell with the technicalities. This is a friendly game, so play on!"

However, in a more competative setting, like against my brother (haha) or in a tourney, I'd absolutely call someone on this. I voted A, as you can guess, because in an official setting, this is how I'd play.

CK

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person, who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

Black Templars (8000), Imperial Guard (3000), Sanguinary Host (2000), Tau Empire (1850), Bloodaxes (3000) 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





It might also be something to note how "Or" gets used in english. It can be used to denote both "inclusive disjuncts' and 'exclusive disjuncts'. Basically either option in an inclusive disjunct can be true, but only one option in an exclusive disjunct can be true. This means that in constructing certain formulas 'or' & 'and' are synonymous.

Likewise what the corpsman was describing was a conditional relationship. If A then B, A, therefore B is valid. But If A then B, B, therefore A is not valid. Definitions like "...if and only if..." fix it so that if A then B AND if B then A; they are equivalent (they return the same value). The character map on our computators has handy symbols for these relations: If...then... (?), ...because... (?), and ...if and only if...,...is...(?).

So As (or all As) can be Bs without all Bs being As.

Aside from also being the charitable reading, it seems to have a nice 'fit' as well, depending on how you're playing. If you're playing what I'd call 'gritty' then it represents fewer but more carefully aimed shots, and it makes sense that even Terminators need to take careful aim if they are to hit anything further away. Rather like the Imperial Chaplain fellow. Except he has the advanced stormbolter, a stabilized rapid-firing weapon.One could say that because the heavy weapons are stabilized that the combi-weapons must be. But the heavy weapons are specially built into the armour, whereas Terminators just hold their (non-)standard arms. The difference is the difference between a storm bolter and a combi-bolter, one is stabilized so it's easier to engage at range, but less agile close-in (the gyroscope makes fancy gunplay hard), and the other is non-stabilized, too much recoil for accurate long range fire, but easier to manipulate during close-range gun fights. I like to think of each Imperial Terminator as an automatic rifleman that way, by comparison to the Chaos Terminator shock troops.

If you're playing what I'd call 'heroically', aka 'among friends', then you play it how you want to play it.
   
Made in ca
Stalwart Space Marine





Barrie, Ontario, Canada

RAW all the way....my opinion is that if you need to find little loop holes in the rules to either win, or have a fun game....you shouldn't be playing! Yes rules are rules, and we all in some extent hate rules, but it's JUST A GAME....can you bend the rules in a video game (Cheat codes aside...lol) unless you're some super video game expert that knows how to...no you can't. Just sit down, play your game...and enjoy it for what it is....

Hope is the first step on the path to disappointment." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






Getting my broom incase there is shenanigans.

yakface wrote:
I used to agree with you guys 100% before the new Chaos codex. But look at how careful the wording is: they made absolutely clear that you can charge after firing rapid fire weapons.

I find it pretty difficult to believe that they would take the time to write all that out about rapid fire weapons being able to charge but at the same time totally miss the fact that they can't move and fire rapid fire weapons at full range.

I could be totally wrong but it just seems beyond the scope of reason.



I disagree here. With all of the RAW arguments they had with the last Chaos codex, they wanted to make it perfectly clear that Terminators can rapid-fire and assault, so they clarified it.

But there oversight was 12”-24”.

What they need is a USR for “Always counts as stationary”


 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






on board Terminus Est

ACAS!!!

Haaaa!

- G

ALL HAIL SANGUINIUS! No one can beat my Wu Tang style!

http://greenblowfly.blogspot.com <- My 40k Blog! BA Tactics & Strategies!
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

RAW.

Normal Termies shouldn't be taking Combi-weapons that RF anyways, so this should be moot.

Chaos Termies have Combi-weapons as standard, so they need the exception in their rules.

If a Loyalist Termie takes a RF weapon, then he doesn't get the Chaos Termie bonus until he forsakes the Emperor.

   
 
Forum Index » 40K You Make Da Call
Go to: