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 BaconCatBug wrote:
RIP Girlyman. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/11/22/get-ready-for-chapter-approved-matched-play-updates-nov-22gw-homepage-post-3/

Eh, I have his model but I will never use him. Good riddance to broken rules.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
Guilliman is going up by about 25 points, which is probably a lot less than he deserves. Reports of his death have been greatly exaggerated.

Which is gonna add up with Razorbacks increasing in price.

True. But does anyone think that a parking lot of razorbacks with a primarch stood in the middle, surrounded by a wall of conscripts, is a cool army? Does anyone think it's fun to play with or against, or that it in any way matches the fluff?

No, they do not. Everyone thinks it's lame.

Right now that's probably the most effective way to play marines. If GW nerfs the razorbacks and Guilliman slightly, while making other units cheaper and therefore more viable, other tactics will be more effective than parking lots. That is good for the game, and for us as marine players. We will have more interesting games.

The trouble is that we don't know for sure what the changes will be, or how significant they'll be. So until the start of December when the book comes out we won't know how good our armies are, or what we could do to improve them.

Personally I'm most pleased to see that GW is taking Forgeworld under its wing and changing the points values of their units. That's going to radically increase the number of viable units available to marine players, while giving us a bit more confidence that the rules are balanced. I'm definitely thinking about adding a Sicaran Venator to my army, for example, once I know its new cost.

All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.

Not that specific, unfortunately. Multi-wound weapons are everywhere.

Martel732 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All I know is Intercessors going down a couple points makes them super viable. 9 points per 3+ wound is tough to beat and requires specific weaponry to really kill efficiently.

Not that specific, unfortunately. Multi-wound weapons are everywhere.

While this is obviously true, a Primaris army won't only have Primaris marines in it. It will have tanks, dreadnoughts and flyers just like any other list.

And just like any other list, people will want to fire heavy weapons at your tanks and anti-personnel weapons at your infantry. They will also hit your guys in cc, very often with weapons that deal 1 damage.

The result is that you do get to use the two wounds on your Primaris guys most of the time. It's not as durable as having two models with 1 wound each, but it's still very significant.

Or 5 models with one wound each.

What chapter do you play and how do you tend to spend your CP?

I tend to have 1-2 Vanguard detachments, so about 4-5CP. I find myself spending 1 on the Sternguard stratagem (2 if enough of them get to live), lascannon dmg rerolls, occasionally some charge rolls. I'm still learning the army, so I keep forgetting about the Auspex stratagem.

Two games ago a necron player deep striked a Deathmark unit after my own. I guess I could've shot at them before they did. Am I right?

What do you tend to spend CP on?

macexor wrote:
What chapter do you play and how do you tend to spend your CP?

I tend to have 1-2 Vanguard detachments, so about 4-5CP. I find myself spending 1 on the Sternguard stratagem (2 if enough of them get to live), lascannon dmg rerolls, occasionally some charge rolls. I'm still learning the army, so I keep forgetting about the Auspex stratagem.

Two games ago a necron player deep striked a Deathmark unit after my own. I guess I could've shot at them before they did. Am I right?

What do you tend to spend CP on?

I use the sons of Guilliman stratagem regularly, charges rerolls and damage rerolls, too. I never use the Auspex because my infantry is often embarked, so...
Oh, I love the one making my vv fighting twice, too.

Have you tried a "distraction captain" ? Like, deep striking a jump pack / terminator captain alone or maybe with a few marines, in order to attract fire and cause havoc into your opponent's line ?

Was thinking about him but I've never given him a chance. I guess I could give him the +1A Warlord Trait and if he gets to charge the right target, even using the 3 CP fight-again stratagem. Will try that next game.

people who think G man is going anywhere are deluded. Unless they are stripping rules from him, a 25 point increase still means he's the best individual unit in the codex.

And if you play space marines, this doesn't herald great things. Space marines are already on the back foot with most of their roster.

I hope they release a new Primarch that resembles more Magnus than Gulliman. I don't like the G-man for only one reason. He forces you into playing that one particular chapter.

New Armored BT basic idea

Chapter Master on bike, PF/SS
JP captain TH/SS
LT

6x5 scouts

3 Tarantulas, HB

3 Relic Sicaran Punishers, 3 HB

3 Predators, AC/LC

1852 pts

3 Punisher sicarans puts out 81 HB shots at 36" for less than 5 razorbacks that would put out 60 asscan shots at 24". They have 42 wounds compared to 50 wounds. It has built in reroll 1s if it doesn't move. They are elites versus DT.

30 scouts gives you a lot of flexibility in bubble wrap, you could definitely sub a few squads out for tacs/crusaders with single lascannons or whatever.

I like the JP TH/SS captain, but easily subbed out for someone else.

UM can forego the turrets and move some stuff around to get Guilleman and 2/3 HQs, giving them 10 CP, the 6 main battle tanks and however many scouts for screening.

The Relic Sicarans have the, well, relic rule. You'll need more elites to actually run that many.

The three sicaran variants definitely need to be considered now that their cost has come down so much - albeit yes, the relic rule limits how much you can spam them.

It seems to me that the Venator and punisher are better choices than the normal sicaran - which has a kind of unremarkable gun. I wouldn't call it a bad tank though, just one that lacks a specific niche. It may turn out that its all-rounder stat line makes it a winner overall.

I think inceptors give you more shots per point now, and they benefit from CTs. But the punisher can shoot things from much further away where it's a lot safer. Marines now have a number of solid choices for dakka, rather than just defaulting to razorbacks automatically.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The Relic Sicarans have the, well, relic rule. You'll need more elites to actually run that many.

Good catch. Company vets are cheapest elite choice at 32pts/unit, with 2 storm bolters they're 36, and if you could fit a razorback somewhere in your list, 3x2 vets with 6 sb in a razorback is a pretty decent counter-assault unit for stuff like boyz/tyranid troops.

So a Sicaran with lascannons is 215 and a venator with just the HB is 180. Dios mio those are great.

1977 pts

Chapter master on bike, PF/SS
LT, CCW/SB
LT, CCW/SB

6x5 scouts

3x2 Vets, 2 SB
Razorback, TL HB

3x Sicaran punisher, 3 HB

3x Tarantual, TL HB

3x Pred, AC/LC

Coming back to my 30 Sternguard under Issodon glass cannon problem, I guess I could try fielding just 20 of them and Company Ancient.

I'm facing AdMech soon. If I place them so that they cannot potentially be charged by an IK, so that the only way to kill them is to shoot them, they'll end up having more or less the same firepower while costing at least a 100 points less. In theory at least. I'll try that and see how it works.

Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?

If so, Black Templar melee dreads are gonna have more fun than usual.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Neophyte2012 wrote:
Hi guys, I think I found something good in the rumored Chapter Approved. The FW Lucis Dreadnought Droppod is 80pts now, cheaper than the normal Droppod. So looks like Multimelta Venerable Dreadnoughts or Ironclad Dreadnoughts steal rain maybe viabe again. Any thought?

If so, Black Templar melee dreads are gonna have more fun than usual.

FW dreads pay less for double melee too. 40 for the first, 50 for the pair. 46/56 for chainfists. Saves 30 pts or so. Relic contemptor with double chainfist+heavy flamer is 225, pretty decent, actually. Interestingly, they reroll ALL 1s to hit when they have double melee, so if you went double grav or plasma, you get to reroll the 1s there. Nothing OP, but possibly enough cost reduction to be semi-viable.

Double melee isn't worth the rerolls of 1. Take a gun.

Making your second weapon a melee weapon costs you between 25-31 pts, depending on fist weapon. For either of the gun options (Grav/plasma) you get a hits on 2 weapon with rerolling 1s.

All of the heavy weapons will be hitting on 3s with no rerolls.

My quick head math leads me to believe that only the twin las will likely have a noticeable damage advantage over the plasma/grav against highly durable targets, but hitting on a 3+ there is a decent chance of only getting 1 hit, at which point 2 plasma/grav hits are going to do similar average damage.

I don't think any of the heavy guns will perform significantly better against soft targets than a heavy flamer. Double heavy flamer also gives you a solid overwatch to pick up 4-5 horde models on their charge.

Unless you are seeing something I'm not, I don't see a major advantage to paying for a heavy weapon on a drop pod BT dread intended for CC.

Um, I'm seeing that the Dread can't always be in melee, and that rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth the price compared to getting a gun.

With the point cost changes, it looks liike the Land Raider Crusader will become more expensive than the Dakka minigun Repulsor.

Also, I think 80 points is still too expensive for a dreadnought delivery system that does nothing after it comes down. If your strategy is going to revolve around dropping a dread somewhere, take a Storm Raven and build your list around it.

Alright, just got my butt handed to me at a local tourney and I can't figure out how to "get gud."

3 of the armies there were running very similar lists. 27ish dark reapers, hemlock wraith fighter and then other stuff.

I was running a typical guilliman parking lot list (5 assbacks, stormraven, screening conscirpts, primaris psychers, tigarius, guilliman, a couple objective grabbing scout squads.)

Both times I fought this list the enemy went first, 1st list alphaed 2 razors and the storm raven, second alphad 4 razors, sniped a psycher or two with rangers and no LOS'd my a scout squad on objectives with autarchs. It was pretty much over from there.

Range + hit penalties (-3 to hit concealed unit) made it really hard for me to hit back with my already crippled army.

Also with the new ITC rules I was giving up points like crazy and was finding hard to score points against this list (well screened characters, no snipers of my own, no large units, only one unit with 10+ wounds, doesn't need LOS to shoot me off objectives)

I was thinking of going with dreads and out of LOS thunderfire cannons to take advantage of Gman re-rolls and reducing the amount of 10+ wound models out there. I just find it hard to spend more than half the point of a unit for a model that I hope I never have to use (techmarines and all their servo-arms, flamers...)

I need to be able to face these top lists in addition to reaper spam:
morty+magnus soup,
2x knights + cawl bots
and an 18 assassin + sisters
(my local meta is terrible cheese)

Performed decent against morty+magnus, stomped the knights+cawl and got dominated by these eldar lists(thankfully didn't play against the assassins). My success seems strongly correlated to if I go first or not which is why I'm hoping for a decent non-LOS unit that won't get alphad off the board but can still take advantage of gman's crazy re-roll bubble.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Um, I'm seeing that the Dread can't always be in melee, and that rerolling 1's to hit isn't worth the price compared to getting a gun.

You get guns with the fists. Guns that hit on 2s when moving instead of 3s, and the rerolls to hit also effects those guns, meaning that if the dread is moving, those guns statistically do similar damage to the heavy weapons, while also enhancing the dreads melee damage.

2s rerolling 1s to hit means you should almost always (97%) be getting 2 overcharge plasma hits out of the fist.

Compare;

Plasma blastgun 2x S8 AP3 D2 hits
Twin Autocannon 2.64x S7 AP1 D2 hits
Heavy Plasma 1.32x S8 AP3 D2 hits
Twin HB 4x S5 AP1 D1 hits
Kheres 4x S7 AP1 D1 hits
MM .66x S8 AP4 Dd6 hits
Twin las 1.32x S9 AP4 Dd6 hits

So you get more damage on the drop against light infantry with the kheres/HB (Probably 3-4 dead vs 2 with GEQ), and if you're building the dread to face light infantry you're best off taking 2x heavy flamers because you'll pick up more than either with overwatch alone. Heavier infantry the extra AP on the blastgun means more consistent kills, and the flat 2 damage means they can chunk multi-wound units or even characters if you can get a proper drop or clear screens.

Against vehicles the Plasma blastgun is better than anything except the las. T7 3+ twin las averages 2.6 dmg to plasmas 2.1 dmg, T8 3+ it's 2.6 vs 1.6. So, on average, you will do one more damage to a leman russ with the lascannon over the plasma blastgun.

Meanwhile you also have the rerolls on your other fist weapon, and your melee attacks.

Again, what I'm saying is that you do not lose much shooting efficiency while gaining melee efficiency, and the only gun that does more consistent damage vs notable targets cost 19 pts more.

Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

Xiber wrote:
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

I've run 5 with a JP captain using primarchs wrath for funsies. It's a pretty cool unit, the small footprint lets you drop it in some tight spots. I'd say the captain is basically mandatory so you can overcharge and get real work out of them, thought the relic bolter is optional. Two squads with the captain seems more optimal, but then you're talking about a sizable chunk of your army.

Compared to preds or devastators I'm not super impressed by their damage, but they're immune to being alphaed, and in heavy LOS boards they have some other advantages. I think they're pretty neat overall. 11 attacks in melee means they can beat up weak backfield units, and tarpitting them isn't really possible.

Xiber wrote:
Does anyone tried plasma gunslingers vanduards?
They do same output at 12" as plasma command squad, but pay for deep strike 2 points per model comparing to golden price Drop-pod
Add here 12" move and fly keyword
Can they fit a role of old good meltadrop?

I’ve run 10 (2 units of 5) dropping with either Shrike or a TH/SS captain in a couple of tournaments. They make a fun and effective alphastrike if the opponent doesn’t screen. Typically I was taking out an important backfield vehicle or two (ravager, shooty dread) or character on the drop with the shooting, and losing about 0-1 models to overheat with the rerolls.

Then, unlike scions, after the drop they can sometimes charge into melee with something—especially using Shrike’s assault reroll. They still get 2 attacks each in melee, but more importantly if you trap something that can’t fly away, then you’re safe from shooting until your next turn when you can fall back and shoot again.

But there are too many random factors to make it a reliable competitive unit. Mostly if your opponent does any kind of screening, then that severly limits the damage you can do. And by dropping like that, the vanguards make themselves the priority target for all return fire. The unit is expensive, at 160 each with 10 pistols, for 1-wound models that die pretty easily. The rerolls are absolutely essential—one time I took a chance dropping a unit of 5 in a tiny corner spot without the captain, and four cooked themselves (one of the four rolled double ones and cooked himself twice).

But it is super-fun and characterful for RG as a unit to play in casual games. Currently I’m also putting together a unit of VV with dual grav pistols to throw in the mix.