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Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.

£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.

Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Olthannon wrote:
Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.

£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.

Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.


You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount
   
Made in us
Terrifying Doombull




 GaroRobe wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.

£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.

Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.


You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount


Pricing gets normalized by the brain over time. I can remember when $3/model was high. GW has (this century) slowly crept from the goldswords (pretty much the classic box of 'What!?!' pricing) being $60 for a box of 10, to multiple boxes of (human-sized)infantry being $55 for 5. So $55 for 10 (much better) guardsmen with lots of options and bits really does almost seem reasonable until you step back and really think about it.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





I could be wrong, but I think it was around the times the dark elves got their eighth edition upgrade that the price creep was first obvious (not that it wasn't constantly happening, but that's when it became the current standard). 50 or 60 for ten witch elves. And the rest is history.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 21:16:43


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

remember when everyone thought that Cadians are bad models but the cheaper option over the better looking metal models

well, last year the very same plastic Cadians became more expensive than the still available (via made to order) very same metal models

and now DKoK costs the same and are also more expensive than the metal ones

let this settle, the special edition, made to order metal models, are now the budget option for a Imperial Guard Army

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Voss wrote:
 GaroRobe wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Is it really 34 quid for the krieg box? Hells teeth.

£3 per plastic model is absurd, even taking 20% off retail at something like wayland games, it's still way too much.

Looks like I'm waiting round until the eventual IG codex release and combat patrols before I expand my guard.


You can tell GW has their hooks in me because I'm like "that's not too bad." Though maybe it's because the only way to buy them previously was for the cost of an original start collecting set on ebay, and the individual models went for $15 a pop. I'm not going to hold my breath, but because there are multiple ways to get a squad now, maybe ebay will finally have them for a discount


Pricing gets normalized by the brain over time. I can remember when $3/model was high. GW has (this century) slowly crept from the goldswords (pretty much the classic box of 'What!?!' pricing) being $60 for a box of 10, to multiple boxes of (human-sized)infantry being $55 for 5. So $55 for 10 (much better) guardsmen with lots of options and bits really does almost seem reasonable until you step back and really think about it.


Or all their prices are already cray-cray
   
Made in si
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I just sold the 10 Krieg from my Octarius and used the same money to get a box of 60 fully poseable Victrix napoleonic French.

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Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?

I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.

EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 21:46:48


One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






They do, and they're £46 without upgrade options, which is a further £17, and still does not have all the options the new set does have.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Infantry-Squad-Advancing-FW-2020

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Weapons-Set

Not defending the price of the new set mind, but it is a lot cheaper than Forgeworld still, and you don't get the chance of 20% via FLGS with Forgeworld

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/20 21:53:03


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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Olthannon wrote:
Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?

I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.

EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.


Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.

For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/20 21:54:46


 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







Starter seems a good deal if it has both complete teams.

   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

endlesswaltz123 wrote:They do, and they're £46 without upgrade options, which is a further £17, and still does not have all the options the new set does have.

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Infantry-Squad-Advancing-FW-2020

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Death-Korps-of-Krieg-Weapons-Set

Not defending the price of the new set mind, but it is a lot cheaper than Forgeworld still, and you don't get the chance of 20% via FLGS with Forgeworld


GaroRobe wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
Well here's my question because I can't be arsed to go through that captcha problem on Forge World. What is the difference between the price of these 10 in plastic versus a squad from FW? Or what were they if they aren't available now?

I think my problem is I didn't have that normalisation. It's been over a year since I crept back into Warhammer but I'm still surprised at things like this.

EDIT: I'll be damned, they've finally fixed that captcha problem. But an individual krieg squad no longer exists.


Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.

For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.




Hey thanks both for pointing that out, totally missed that on my quick scroll through FW. I saw the Death Korp platoon thing and a bunch of tanks but missed the individual squad.

Don't get me wrong, I wasn't expecting the GW plastics to be the same price, but I was interested in seeing the difference.

I think this is not so much the actual factual price difference to my mind. It's more how much are you willing to pay for 10 basic human weenies, regardless of their kit options. To me at least, although it is great you get all those weapons options, it still only makes 10 soldiers.

Part of the block for me is that when I collected Guard, it was 18 pounds for a box of 20 cadians and I was comfortable with that price.

It was not difficult to build an infantry platoon for an army that had a lot of infantry.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





These days, its 45USD for the ten cadians. They do have the upgrade sprue for heads, but the bodies are still weirdly proportioned.

All horde armies are becoming harder to collect. The new boyz kit is also $45 but at least the original kit is around $10 cheaper and has customization.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







 GaroRobe wrote:
For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.

Just so we're clear here, GaroRobe, are you meaning special weapons when you're saying heavy weapons here? I've not heard anyone mention a HWT in the Krieg box - in fact, I seem to recall that's one of the things Kan has been feeling smug about regarding the set.

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 Kanluwen wrote:
This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.

Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army... 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 GaroRobe wrote:
Ten resin "DEATH KORPS OF KRIEG INFANTRY SQUAD ADVANCING" cost £44.00 (€57.00, US$73.00) in 2018. The new kit has so many more options, will be easier to work with, and isn't resin/FW. This was the same cost as other ten men krieg squads.



Forge World ones look nicer though, IMO.




chaos0xomega wrote:
AllSeeingSkink wrote:


GW pricing is some weird mix of sprue count, sprue size, model size, points, and whatever they feel like that day.



GW pricing is fairly straightforward, its based on the production costs (including all relevant overhead and indirect cost) vs the expected lifetime kit sales, adjusted for payback period.


I'm sure that's a big factor, but I do think GW subsidise some kits versus others, I don't think individual kits are entirely priced on their individual costs and expected sales, it seems to me there is some account made for the range as a whole.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/21 12:18:10


 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Dysartes wrote:
 GaroRobe wrote:
For the five man command squad, which had a standard, a vox caster, two heavy weapons, and an officer with bolt pistol and power sword, it was £29.00 (€38.00, US$48.00). Except for the standard, you get all these options (plus actual weapon choices for the officer, more heavy weapons) and another five guys.

Just so we're clear here, GaroRobe, are you meaning special weapons when you're saying heavy weapons here? I've not heard anyone mention a HWT in the Krieg box - in fact, I seem to recall that's one of the things Kan has been feeling smug about regarding the set.

Smug's the wrong word for what I'm feeling about the lack of a heavy weapons team.

Suspicious of. It's why I keep speculating that there's a big change coming to the Infantry Squad mechanism. Between the repacked Cadians and the Death Korps, neither of them received Heavy Weapons Teams--and the Cadians would have just been adding two sprues in.

Add in the drop of Brood Brothers from the GSC book and I'm feeling a bit more justified in my speculations. But the book is likely so far out for Guard that it doesn't matter.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 13:32:45


 
   
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Texas

Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.

I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...

So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...

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Tampa,FL USA

 Sacredroach wrote:
Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.

I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...

So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...


You could also buy bits by the pound.

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Made in gb
Bane Knight






 Platuan4th wrote:
 Sacredroach wrote:
Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.

I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...

So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...


You could also buy bits by the pound.


I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...

But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?

We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?

I just despair reading this sort of thing at times, I worry this race to the bottom is going to kill a lot of companies (GW will get through it of course, they are the big dog etc, but even so their staff deserve decent wages as much as anyone else).

I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away, yes GW make amazing profit and yes a lot of that goes to shareholders and higher ups, but ultimately, they like all of us are a business and are there to make profit so they can be in business year after year.

I always use the Mars Bar equation. When I was a kid, a Mars Bar was 20-30p, now they are more like £1. That's inflation for you. Minis have to go the same way.

£30-40 is about right these days for a box of figures. Ball park figure, for every £1 of cost to manufacture, you'll see £5 to the RRP to cover all the ways the pie gets cut.

Unless we can find a way to remove distro and retail from the industry without killing it (because we all know games without store/club presence are dead games walking as there will never be growth) then sadly these prices are inevitable and will only rise.

I see the same with 3D printing. Patreon and KS have skewed perception and expectation and it seems the general demand is for creators to make a loss. That's just not viable.

I'll go back to lurking and I don't look forward to the responses, but someone has to be the bearer of bad news I guess.

Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.

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 JonWebb wrote:


I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away,

Because it seems to be mostly a strawman. "Painters and sculptors on the breadline" is the most egregious part but it's littered with stuff to criticise tbh.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

I am amused by your pricing discussion. GW pricing is due to having fantastic (for them) margins. There is actually an upshot here - other producers get to charge a lot more for their stuff than you would in a cut throat market. I suspect a lot of companies are thankful for GW style margins not Mars bar margins, because in that competitive world they would be stuffed when it comes to competing.

For the last 6 months profits were £88.2m on £191.5m turnover.

If they decided to go without profits for a year to wipe out competition they could cut prices by 40+%. Would they other players survive that? Now its pointless because the barriers for entry are tiny so they wouldn't pop back up, but that's amazing flexibility built into their turnover.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/21 14:26:00


 
   
Made in at
Discriminating Warrior





Austria

yes having a lot of bits in the box is great
paying for extra bits you never need, not so much

like having an additional command box with all the bits that you can buy if you need them and a flat troop box with the basic option is straight up better for a mass battle game

Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.

yeah, so GW should finally stopp using game cost as a margin to set the model prices and use the material costs instead
so a box of 10 models costs always the same not matter if those are 20 points per model or 5 points per model

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JWBS wrote:
 JonWebb wrote:


I really never wanted to post this as I can forsee the comeback right away,

Because it seems to be mostly a strawman. "Painters and sculptors on the breadline" is the most egregious part but it's littered with stuff to criticise tbh.


Eyep. The idea that the increased cost of GW minis is because the increased prices are somehow going to the artists is laughable at best.

GW prices long predate increased shipping costs; and materials costs being 'through the roof' for this type of plastic is just a joke.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
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 JonWebb wrote:
Side note - I get that buying horde armies at elite army prices sucks, that's a different kettle of fish, but ultimately, the material cost bears no relationship to the in game cost, so 10 figures is 10 figures regardless of if they cost 10 points or 100.


It might be more expensive than it used to be, but plastic is still pretty cheap and not going to be a major driver of the cost. Many (most?) of the other costs go down if they can shift more of a given product. 10 models might cost the same in raw materials regardless of whether they're elite or not, but the cost of getting 20 models from raw materials to product in the customer's hand is no where near twice the cost of getting 10 models to the customer, a lot of the costs are fixed or diminish with volume.

I haven't looked closely at recent GW financial reports, but historically a huge slab of their costs are running their stores. If they weren't running their own brick and mortar store network but could retain the same sales, their profits would be (even more) insane.
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Indeed, all the shipping and material costs etc did have an impact - the profits dropped 3.71% from £91.6m to £88.2m while turnover was increasing (so profit margin reduced by more than 3.71%).
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







 JonWebb wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Sacredroach wrote:
Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.

I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...

So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...


You could also buy bits by the pound.


I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...

But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?

We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?

.


What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime. All in greenstuff though.
Theres is little to no relevant money in this activity... Also is a dead end career for traditional sculptors.
Thanks for cheering me up though XD




   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut







 NAVARRO wrote:

What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime.


I beg you, teach us your way of bread and buns! We too would like our own Necker Islands!

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/21 17:41:33


Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 NAVARRO wrote:
 JonWebb wrote:
 Platuan4th wrote:
 Sacredroach wrote:
Ha! Back in my day you could buy a blister of 5 metal Aspect Warriors for $8.99...and most metal characters were $9.99 each.

I also remember the GW Christmas specials where you could get a Fantasy or 40K bag of random metal miniatures (usually 50) for $25...

So $60 for 10 figures will always seem a little high in my mind...


You could also buy bits by the pound.


I try not to dip into pricing discussion as its a really sensitive and potentially difficult one...

But I wonder if folks really think about what goes into making minis. The days of 50p a model are long gone. Material costs have gone through the roof, shipping prices are almost unbearable and no one ever seems to think about the human cost. Do people who don't like paying £3-5 a figure not care that there is a team of humans behind every bit of the hobby that deserve to be paid for their efforts?

We all know that inflation and cost of living are going mad, those are going to impact as wages must rise to cover and even if not, do you really want artists, sculptors and painters to live on the bread line so you can buy a luxury product at bargain prices?

.


What bread line is this you speak off? As a sculptor I can tell you I have a luxury private island with all the bread and buns I could ever need in a lifetime. All in greenstuff though.
Theres is little to no relevant money in this activity... Also is a dead end career for traditional sculptors.
Thanks for cheering me up though XD



Given we know GW pay their rules writers poorly, I imagine they also pay their sculptors/painters poorly while pulling in huge amounts of revenue, so maybe GW aren't the best example to use when it comes to relating high prices to needing to pay sculptors.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/22 07:01:45


 
   
Made in us
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For those that consider getting the new Kill Team starter be aware that it doesn't contain the complete rules for neither Kommandos nor Veteran Guardsmen so you need the Kill Team: Octarius book on top. The gaming board is also just a paper mat.

Here is a detailed comparison between both sets: https://taleofpainters.com/2022/01/review-new-kill-team-starter-set-vs-kill-team-octarius/

Still a good deal though.

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





So basically even those only interested in Kreigs and Kommandos will still need the compendium anyway.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
 
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