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Hey Folks

I wanted to post this here because after a series of searches I didn't turn up much so if this is a boring repeat please direct me toward the thread I missed.

I'm an IG player and have been for a long long time. Now i have had some good successes against Eldar and other times not so much.

Generally the people I play with are VERY fond of the Harlie/3 Falcon Cheddar combo Now don't get me wrong these players are very good. I have had some success but usually only just by the skin of my teeth.

The Falcon and Grav tanks are just so durable sometimes with the Spirit stones and Holofields even concentrated fire will sometimes just immobilize them.

I was hoping to get some more and general Advice for IG fighting Eldar Especially to take down those Blasted Harliquins and Falcons.

Just to give you an idea my last army build was

JO Command Squad 2x PG ML

3x 10 man vet squad with 3 PGs and LC

2 Platoons

1 Platoon command section W 4 meltas W sharpshooter

1 platoon command section w 3 plasmas and Medic

4 squads W PG and ML

2 Squads with Flamers

2 Hell hounds with EA

2 russ tanks with HBs all around & EA

 

Interested in your thoughts. Thanks for your help

 

greynite1

Falcon air cav is tough no matter how you swing it. Based on your army uild, I'm seeing a few errors that should be corrected nearly immediately.

First is that you have squads without a heavy weapon. That's a total waste - IG lives and dies by their heavy weapons and bringing them into play. Second, if you want to build a force to challenge an Eldar Air Cav, there are really two weapons that you need to spam: lascannons and autocannons. Those two weapons will be your bread and butter.

Second, you have expensive special and heavy weapons in your easily targetted and wiped out command squads. You've made them into obvious targets for your opponent without giving them any means of getting to their objectives (unless you have the drop troops doctrine and didn't tell us). Let your command squads do their job - command and provide leadership, and let the 10 bodies in your line squads soak up wounds while keeping your heavy weapons in play.

Third you have missile launchers. The only way missile launchers work is en masse. They don't belong in a guard army otherwise, because you can take enough of the more effective specialist heavy weapons to have a good mix.

Fourth, Guard really benefit from having indirect fire. A basilisk with ID fire is well worth the points, because it gives you a means to threaten units that are trying to hide out of LOS.

Fifth - we really need to know you're doctrine choices. Because doctrines can make or break the difference between an effective guard list and a list that simply gives your opponent a body count.

I'd echo the basilisk comment for a couple of reasons.  9 times out of 10 the Falcons are going to start the game hiding behind something.  A pair of Basilisks gives him something to worry about if he clusters all of his skimmers together behind size three terrain and doesn't get the first turn.  killing a Falcon is a lot easier if you can get a penetrating hit on it, and you really only have one chance at that.  Secondly, the Bassies as a team with one deployed at each end of your lines behind something make it harder for him to spend the game flitting around behind cover and moving to sweep one flank with everything he's got.

You can use this to make him come to you faster and if you get the right mix of special weapons and heavy weapons in your firebases, you can whittle away his support units and neutralize(somewhat) his falcons.  Harlies aren't very good against horde armies like IG, so if you have enough bodies you can take them down.

One big problem with IG vs Mech Eldar is that in objective contol missions you are always at a huge disadvantage, because he can buzz around and then hop on objectives at the end.  It isn't easy for sure.

It depends on what you have to work with. Samwize gave some great advice.

As an Eldar player, I've had the most trouble against infantry-heavy IG. The sheer weight of numbers can actually do Eldar in pretty quickly.

Some things you absolutely should consider:
Drop Troops w/ Special Weapon Teams (flamers for Harlies, Plasma for Falcons)
Drop Troop Sentinels w/ Autocannon or Lascannon

Outmaneuvering Eldar w/ Deep Strike units is one of the best ways to take them down. Ground-based approaches are simply defeated from the get go.

Heavy Weapon Teams w/ 3 Autocannon. Useful against nearly every single target in the game. Excellent against Falcons. You need many, many  more heavy weapons in general.

EDIT: Forgot one of the more important ones: An Inquisitor. A Demonhunter inquisitor with Emporer's Tarot goes quite a ways toward stacking the odds in your favor. Infiltrating heavy weapons and Bassilisks can do a real number on falcons on the first turn, even if they're hiding. AND their retinues give you access to some pretty unique abilities, Mystics, Plasma Cannons and Sages being among my favorites. And a psychic hood!

Auto cannons, auto cannons, auto cannons. Auto cannons have the same statistical chance to hurt a falcon as a las cannon does and they are better against wave serpents since they don't suffer strength reduction due to the energy field. In addition, auto cannons can possibly cause 2 damaging hits on a falcon where as a las cannon can only cause 1. Auto cannons are also better due to their increased usefulness in killing infantry over las cannons, not to mention that they cost fewer points too. So pile in the auto cannons everywhere you can.

Spread out your heavy weapons. Heavy weapon squads can take lots of big guns, but they are a single squad that the enemy will kill as fast as possible (not that you shouldn't try to take one or maybe 2 but be aware of their limitation). You'll want to take lots of basic infantry squads all packing auto cannons. I would also recommend using a chimera or two if you are going up against quins (hell hounds work about as well). The way to take out quins is to drive up to them and unload with lots of shots (or flamer templates). A basic las gun squad in a chimera will take care of that. 10 troopers with las guns = 20 shots + 3 from the multi laser (maybe), should be enough to take out 6ish toughness 3 models with only a 5+ save.

Place some decoy units. If quins in falcons or other hand to handies in wave serpents are a concern, put out a few decoy units...minimum sized cheepy squads (pay for the auto cannons in them though) that stand ~8 inches farther forward of your main body of troops. These units are out there as assault targets for the quins. The quins will charge into them, kill them off and then be left standing in the open ~8-12 inches away from you. At that point, you can move up the closest squad and las gun them to death. You lose a squad costing ~80 points; they lose one costing well over 100. You win. If the enemy doesn't take the bait and drives past the decoy units, you will have an unit behind his falcon. On your turn, move the unit as close to the falcon as you can and assault the rear of the tank... you won't be able to hurt it, but if you are standing on the exit hatch, the quins will not be able to get out and the tank will have to relocate for another turn before they can get out and assault you.

Hope this helps you out some.

Posted By Phoenix on 10/26/2007 9:16 AM
Auto cannons, auto cannons, auto cannons. Auto cannons have the same statistical chance to hurt a falcon as a las cannon does

Minor correction. They have the same mean average number hits, but the lascannon has higher chance of hurting the falcon than the autocannon - 33.3% vs 30.6%.

Remember falcons don't have energy fields, S9 glances on 3+, S7 on 5+

Orion

Posted By puree on 10/26/2007 9:57 AM

Posted By Phoenix on 10/26/2007 9:16 AM
Auto cannons, auto cannons, auto cannons. Auto cannons have the same statistical chance to hurt a falcon as a las cannon does

Minor correction. They have the same mean average number hits, but the lascannon has higher chance of hurting the falcon than the autocannon - 33.3% vs 30.6%.

Are you including the ability of the auto cannon to inflict 2 damaging hits in one round into your analysis?  And how exactly are you coming up with your numbers?  Mine are as follows.

Auto cannon

Roll needed to hit=4     Roll needed to do damage=5

6*6*6*6 = 1296,  this is the number of permutations of 4d6 being rolled.  This accounts for 2 to hit rolls and 2 armor penetration rolls for firing and auto cannon once.  Of the 1296 permutations, 396 of those permutations lead to at least 1 damaging hit, 36 cause 2 damaging hits.

So, 396+36 = 432 damaging hits

or 432 / 1296 = .333  so 33% of the shots you fire an auto cannon at a falcon, will damage it.

If you ignore the possibility of 2 damaging hits in one volley of shooting, you get

396 / 1296 = .306 or the 30.6% you were eluding to, which is an incorrect analysis of the situation.

 

Las cannon

Roll needed to hit=4     Roll needed to do damage=3

6*6 = 36, this is the number of permutation of 2d6 being rolled.  This accounts for 1 to hit roll and 1 armor penetration roll.  Of the 36 permutation, 12 damage a falcon.

So, 12/36 = .333 so again, 33% of las cannon shots damage falcons (but we knew this already)

 

Posted By Phoenix on 10/26/2007 2:32 PM

Posted By puree on 10/26/2007 9:57 AM

Posted By Phoenix on 10/26/2007 9:16 AM
Auto cannons, auto cannons, auto cannons. Auto cannons have the same statistical chance to hurt a falcon as a las cannon does

Minor correction. They have the same mean average number hits, but the lascannon has higher chance of hurting the falcon than the autocannon - 33.3% vs 30.6%.

Are you including the ability of the auto cannon to inflict 2 damaging hits in one round into your analysis?  And how exactly are you coming up with your numbers?  Mine are as follows.

Auto cannon

Roll needed to hit=4     Roll needed to do damage=5

6*6*6*6 = 1296,  this is the number of permutations of 4d6 being rolled.  This accounts for 2 to hit rolls and 2 armor penetration rolls for firing and auto cannon once.  Of the 1296 permutations, 396 of those permutations lead to at least 1 damaging hit, 36 cause 2 damaging hits.

So, 396+36 = 432 damaging hits

or 432 / 1296 = .333  so 33% of the shots you fire an auto cannon at a falcon, will damage it.

If you ignore the possibility of 2 damaging hits in one volley of shooting, you get

396 / 1296 = .306 or the 30.6% you were eluding to, which is an incorrect analysis of the situation.

 

Las cannon

Roll needed to hit=4     Roll needed to do damage=3

6*6 = 36, this is the number of permutation of 2d6 being rolled.  This accounts for 1 to hit roll and 1 armor penetration roll.  Of the 36 permutation, 12 damage a falcon.

So, 12/36 = .333 so again, 33% of las cannon shots damage falcons (but we knew this already)

 

I didn't analyse the situation, I merely corrected the innacurate statement you made.

Also note, I said they have the same mean average number of hits - you have merely shown I made a correct statement there. The 'chance'  to hurt a falcon though is different,

chance of 1 shot hurting falcon 1/6.

It has 2 shots so:

chance of both hurting it = 1/6*1/6 = 1/36.

chance of 1 hurt = 1/6 *5/6 *2 = 10/36

chance of zero hurts = 5/6*5/6 = 25/36.

chance of hurting the falcon therefore = 30.6% (rounded) and does include your 2 hits (which is why it averages the same with a higher miss rate, by the way)


[edit:} Ps I wouldn't say it was an innacurate analysis of what you want either - When a falcon is about to drop the harlies on top of you, you get 1 go to shoot it down. At that point you probably want highest possibilty of hitting it there and then - the lascannon give you that, the autocannon gives you less chance of doing anything, in return for a very small chance of 2 hits. The chance of double hits is nice, but not enough to be relying on at a tight moment. Also note that if you immobilise the falcon then the lascannon is an even better gun to try and finish it off as it has a much higher penetration chance.

It all comes out in the wash at the end of the game (or the end of several games). In either case, what's the price difference between the two weapons? That in and of itself might be pleanty of reason to use the auto cannon since its performance against falcons is equal to that of the las cannon (and its a lot better if you end up shooting at troops).

If you manage to immobilize the falcon, you are correct in that the las cannon becomes the far superior weapon of the two for finishing it off. So you may want to mix in a few las cannons with your auto cannons...that or some melta guns depending on price and mobility.

Posted By Phoenix on 10/26/2007 3:55 PM
It all comes out in the wash at the end of the game (or the end of several games). In either case, what's the price difference between the two weapons? That in and of itself might be pleanty of reason to use the auto cannon since its performance against falcons is equal to that of the las cannon (and its a lot better if you end up shooting at troops).

Perfectly valid point, I can't remember gaurd costs, but the last few codices have put a high premium on lascannons (or similar) weapons. Having more autocannons cos they were cheaper would quickly make them a better choice for that situation.

Sorry guys should have listed my Docs Choice

Veterans: (high strength High BS punch with Free infiltrate, also crunchier in milk)

Drop troops: (whole army has this of course, use it to plug holes in my line assasinate units or grab objectives at inconvienient times)

Sharp Shooters: Only applied to my drop melta command section as I don't have the points to apply it all over

Iron Discipline: on all officers

Close order drill: On all squads that can take it NATCH

 

My general strat is to have my weapon teams drop behind enemy lines and Vape Something they are kinda suicide squads. I have kinda done it that way because using Docs I felt the special unit I really need were the Vets. So i took that instead of special weapons. Granted against Eldar COD is kinda useless because on the whole their Initiative is so much higher so maybe I could take the SWs out of my Command squads and buy Special weapon squads to do the dropping instead. Give the other squads missle launchers perhaps and just ID to keep the line together. 

I have Auto Cannons a Plenty trading in Heavy weapons is not a problem for me.

Philisophically I am trying to create an Army that can take Eldar, Marines and Bugs. Thats why I have the Vet squads with PGs and LCs i want that High strength HIgh BS Punch to kill other things. I know you can't really make the perfect build but yeah you guys have given me some stuff to start out with.

So you think I should trade in one of my HHs for a Bassie I think I can live with that. I know that the Hell hounds can out put vicious fire and are the bane of any light armored troops plus they move alot and are scoring. I have taken objectives in games completley with my hell hounds with infantry backing them up. Bug players have pooped themselves when they see 2 hell hounds coming at them. Anyways its hard for me to trade in a Russ for a bassie because that means I'm down a Armor 14 MBT which is often part of my advance. I wouldn't mind the hell hound cause it adds pie love against marines and tau and everybody else.

Please keep the ideas coming Thanks fellas

Greynite1

 

I second the adding of a Bassie.

Hellfish stamp of approval.

Posted By greynite1 on 10/25/2007 5:05 PM

JO Command Squad 2x PG ML
3x 10 man vet squad with 3 PGs and LC
2 Platoons
1 Platoon command section W 4 meltas W sharpshooter
1 platoon command section w 3 plasmas and Medic
4 squads W PG and ML
2 Squads with Flamers
2 Hell hounds with EA
2 russ tanks with HBs all around & EA

As the risk of sounding arrogant I will say just this: "In a guard army that wins, all 10-man squads have a lascannon or autocannon."

Posted By SandyAtDakka on 10/26/2007 9:56 PM

As the risk of sounding arrogant I will say just this: "In a guard army that wins, all 10-man squads have a lascannon or autocannon."

He speaks truth.  Lots and lots of heavy weapons are your friends.  Drop troops with specials are nice for taking out dangerous back field units but not much more.  And, like you said, they are suicide squads (but cheep and effective suicide squads). 

Not really an IG vs Eldar suggestion, but I think you should look up Mauleed's IG army list.  Based on my own experiences and the experiences of others I know, I think that his pattern is the way to go.

To summarize from memory the 1750 point list had:
15 Lascannons
Conscript Tarpit
Rough Riders + Seraphim Counter Charge
Cannoness w/ Book of St. Lucius for Leadership
1 Bassie

I would change it up a little by adding Dropping Plasma Vets and might go DH Inquisitior w/ Psychic Hood, Emperor's Tarot + GK Termies instead of the Sisters of Battle.

Regardless I think spamming Heavy Weapon Support Squads w/ Cameleoline is the way to go.

That's actually not really Imperial Guard though, it's got Battle Sisters in.

There's nothing wrong with the "Imperial Wall of Lascannon" although I prefer mech myself.

That being said, my question is why sisters for counter charge? Seraphim are not assault troops. They are shooting troops that can hide in close combat for a turn, to avoid enemy fire.

Posted By SandyAtDakka on 10/29/2007 10:03 AM
That's actually not really Imperial Guard though, it's got Battle Sisters in.

There's nothing wrong with the "Imperial Wall of Lascannon" although I prefer mech myself.

That being said, my question is why sisters for counter charge? Seraphim are not assault troops. They are shooting troops that can hide in close combat for a turn, to avoid enemy fire.

Seraphim are used for their Hit-n-Run ability.  You tie up an opposing assault unit, get your 3+ Invul saves if needed, then jump away at the end of your opponents assault phase so your Lascannon line can take shots.  If they're any survivors send the Seraphim back in to tie them up again.

Not really sure what you mean, its an Imperial Guard army using Sisters of Battle allies.  That makes it not an Imperial Guard army?

Hey guys

Thanks for the suggestions This is the build that I am gonna toy with for ahwhile and I wanted to post it and get your thoughts.

Docs:

COD

Sharpshooter

Vets

Drop troopers

Iron Discipline

Unless noted all squads that can have Drop troops and COD

-------------------------------------------------

JO Command section 4 Guardsmen W AC

Fire Support Team (All auto cannons) Sharp shooter

2x Hardened Vets with 3 PGs 1 LC each

1st  Platoon JO with 4 Meltas with Sharpshooter

2x Squads W Las Plas

1x Squad with AC Plas

2nd Platoon JO with 3 Plas and Medic

2x Squads W Las Plas

1x Squad with AC Plas

Hellhound W EA

2 Leman Russ Tanks with HB sponsons and FMount with EA

1 Basilisk with Indirect.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm still toying around with the idea of adding a cheap inquisitor with Gun Servitors, Two plasma Cannons and then the Sage and the Mystics with Psycannon.

Also thinking about some possible counter CC fun like a Grey Knight Terminator squad.

I was also looking at the Arco Flagellants to counter the Harlies They might be interesting because of their high Toughness and higher WS it will reduce the actual wounds and hits they get to nothing and the D6 attacks back each has the very likely potential to wipe the squad out.

Was also considering something like the conscript tarpit but thats alot of models to paint I'm already thinking about making new infantry squads for this army.

So Thoughts ideas concerns?

 

Only thing that I would do with your list is to remove all the wargear from from your russes, including the sponsons. Also, what is the FMount?

That gives you (at minimum) 30 points. I would then drop the autocannon from your regimental command squad, and replace it with a mortar and a standard bearer. The standard bearer is to give you a re-roll for your leadership tests - very, very important. The mortar is because you want to hide that squad out of LOS, so the mortar gives it something to do (and may, once in every 4-5 games, actually cause a casualty or pin something).

Then you replace your second platoon command's weapons with 4 meltas and give them sharpshooters as well. Not sure how many points that leaves you with, but if its enough to exchange the FS squad to return the second hellhound to your list, I'd do that. Otherwise, improved comms for the basilisk or beefing up the HQ officer is a good bet.

Hmmm okay

Thats kinda not what I was expecting because that for me adds 3 more sharp shootered heavy weapons.

I can definitely see where the Hellhound would be valuable but this tells me that you are more in favor of sowing the heavy weapons amoungst the 10 man squads only. For obvious reasons. Does this mean that on the whole you feel that Heavy weapon squads are useless? This also kinda takes out 4 auto cannons from the army do you think this trade off is worth it? Its a trade off for a vehicle which is harder to destroy by some but once its gone its gone.

I totally understand why you would be in favor of the Hell hound over the sponsons it lends a great deal more firepower and another scoring unit to the army.

I will give this build a test out. Thanks for the comments Cent

 

 

Hey Folks just wanted an Update and was hoping for a public opinion.

Against Meq stuff this is the build that I have come up with

Doctrines:

Iron Discipline
Close order Drill
Sharpshooter
Veterans
Droptroops

JO Command Section with Mortar, Veteran and Standard

3x Veteran squads with 3 Plasma guns Sarge has Plasma pistol and Bolter

2 Platoons:
Platoon CS with 1 Officer with a Bolter and Iron Discipline
2x Squads Las/Plas
1x Squads AC/Plas

2x Hellhounds with EA
2x Leman Russ Tanks with HB in the Front mount, EA, No sponsons
1x Basilisk with Indirect.

105 Infantry on foot or deep striking
5 Scoring Vehicles

Opinions conmments concerns? Ideas for improvement.

greynite1

So should I be running 3 falcons tonight? lol. (I'll have to proxy the 3rd.... grrr)

Am I only seeing 2 ACs and 4 Lascanons total for troop heavy weapons? If your tooling just for Eldar you want more autocannons, all comers more lascannnons, either way, I was expecting more big guns.

15 Plasma guns looks decent.

Ahhh 2 russ tanks, that should be interesting, they never hit so not sure why you want two of them :p


<---- I love your scatter die :p

Greynite and I played two games. My Eldar List was:

Eldrad
2 x 6 Harlequins w/ kisses & Shadowseer
1 x 5 Fire Dragons
2 x 4 Jetbikes (warlock upgrade, singing spear and destructor)
2 x 5 Pathfinders
2 x Falcon Pulsar Laser, Starcannon, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone, VE, HF (the kitchen sink)
1 x Falcon Pulsar Laser, 2 x Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stone, VE, HF (the kitchen sink)


Greynites List was (and forgive me for not knowing the names of anything)

Close Order Drill, Drop Troops, Infiltration on Vet Squads was there more?
1 x 5 Command Squad with Banner, Autocannon & Mortor
2 x 10 VetSquad with 3 plasma guns, sarg w/ plasma pistol
1 x 6 VetSquad with 3 plasma guns, sarg w/ plasma pistol
2 Platoons with
2 x 5 Commandsquad with I think 1 lascannon each
6 x 10 Infantry squad with I think a total of 3 lascannons and 3 autocannons and 6 plasma guns
2 Russes with Battlecannons (probably smoke and extra armor)
1 Basilisk (probably with smoke and extra armor)
2 Hellhounds with extra armor (and probably smoke)


Our goal last night was to make sure the IG army won or could stand up to the eldar. In my personal opinion Eldar rock the house, the boat, they rock planets and the guns of the IG. Thats just me.

Game 1 Greynite chose a city fight table, lots of buildings, many of them solid so we claimed they were locked, a few added forests for the park areas. Essentially there was a ton of LOS blocking buildings and hard to find cover for infantry. Not a good table if you want lanes of fire other than straight down the streets, diagonal shots (no way except the bassie who doesn't care about LOS). We discussed how to set up the guard, what the eldar army was going to attack first, and what one should do to prevent it. With eldrad we know that where ever I place 2-4 units they won't be there when it comes time for turn 1. I lost the roll to choose sides and Grey grabbed the side with the biggest building to hide his bassie, which we already knew was going to the P1 target for my Eldar. In short, while the building seriously blocked LOS, it also provided me with blocking LOS to a large portion of his army. I won the roll for turn 1, and I raced 2 falcons, 2 jetbike units and eldrad and the pathfinders provided firing support. I had a falcon on the far right side of the board, I just ran that one along the board edge. Now supporting the bassie was 2 infantry squads, a russ, a hellhound. In the center of the long board edge deployment was the morter, 2 more squads, then on the far right was 2 or 3 more squads, a hellhound and the other russ. Honestly the board forced the vehicles to be spreadout more than you'd want, and the lack of hiding spots and natural places to put infantry also forced the spread out. That big building hiding the bassie had no roof access which as we know doesn't stop eldar skimmers. My turn one netted 2 dead guardsmen, Grey's turn 1 killed 3 bikes 2 pathfinders. My turn 2, I unloaded harlequins on a squad, a falcon on the bassie, a falcon on the hellhound, 2 jetbike squads and eldad on another squad, and fire dragons on the russ. I killed it all except the bassie. Grey's turn 2, he got 2 of 3 deepstriking vet squads. Fired a bunch of stuff. Shook all 3 falcons, killed or pinned no infantry. We called the game. It appeared the IG just didnt' have the firepower to hurt the falcons and lacked numbers to deal with the harlequins. I recall asking if he had the item for +1 to go first, +1 for reserves or nullify psychic powers, all would have helped, but not much. My opinion the IG was just lacking but I didn't know what to do to improve the game.

GAME 2, we only had an hour left, but we had to do it again to figure out what’s going on. This time we choose a jungle themed play table. I took control of the IG army and Grey reluctantly used my Eldar. As with last game, I lost choice on board set up. I took some time to analyze the board, and determined the side I had, had a hill in the corner that was just tall enough to hide the bassie. There was a river up the center of the board, lots of forests and some open areas. I took a forest in the center of my long board edge and placed a Russ on either side of it angling them so one could never get a side shot unless you were in my deployment zone. In the forest I placed 3 squads. On the hill of the bassie, I placed a 10 man squad, in a crater between the russes and the hill I put a 10 man squad, and in the corner beside the hill and the bassie I placed a 10 man squad and blocked LOS with a hell hound. The other hellhound I placed in the open behind the crater squad. This left me the mortar squad that I stuck behind a Russ. On my left flank where I had nothing, I put 2 10 man squads equally spaced, better to have a presence than nothing at all I guess. I chose to infiltrate one vet squad and deep strike the other two. I infiltrated on a forest just in front of the hill. I got lucky my infiltration took place after Grey's infiltration and after his redeployment (we rolled random for order of infiltration and Eldrad’s redeployment) so these vets had LOS on pathfinders (hiding behind a 4+ wall on a hill, so 3+ because they are pathfinders). Greynite placed 2 falcons across from the bassie, Eldrad and a pathfinder squad; in the falcons were a squad of harlequins and fire dragons. In the center a single unit of jetbikes, and on the far side a falcon, a pathfinder squad and the other jetbikes. It was almost identical to the set up I used in the previous game (so it looked good!) He chose not to redeploy though he could have moved 3 units. And Greynite got first turn. He guided a falcon, fortuned and guided the pathfinders and advanced.... only 12" he was trying the run n gun on me! On the other side of the board everything flew 24" and was pretty much hidden from view. His shooting was mediocre. My corner hellhound hiding my bassie was shaken, the vet squad in the forest in front of the hill hiding the bassie was shot up, they broke and ran. And um.... I passed a pinning test from the pathfinder team, I think that was it. Turn 1 for me, the vet squad failed to rally so they ran some more (useless!!!). I trained 3 lascannons 1 battle cannon, 2 auto cannons and some really loud curses and I immobilized the falcon carrying the harlequins. I had another lascannon take a shot across the board and I killed a pathfinder in the forest yay!) Greynite’s turn 2; he pushed the fire dragon falcon forward, shot and stunned the same hellhound, and advanced the far side jetbikes and falcon. I pulled a half dozen models off the board. My turn 2 both vet squads deepstriked in, and the broken vets rallied, consolidated 3” and had just enough LOS and movement to get within rapid fire range of the fire dragon falcon. I unloaded somewhere around 30 plasma gun shots, and a battle cannon on that falcon, 3 of my plasma gunners burned up. But the falcon was immobilized. On the far side, his jetbikes had charged and tied up a 10 man squad in combat, I sent 2 squads through a forest and river to intercept. I figured if I rolled decent at least on of the two squads would be able to charge into combat, I rolled a 5 for movement and a 5 for charging, I had plenty movement to cover the distance. I lost a guy in combat, and killed 2 of the remaining 3 jetbikes, the last jetbike out numbered 27 to 1, lost combat, lost initiative checks, and was unceremoniously run down, I massacred both squads back to the safety of my leman Russ and 3 other squads. I was ready for the flanking falcon to drop its harlequins and attack, no way 6 harlequins will beat 50 guardsmen… just aint gonna happen. I would have loved to do turn 3, but I don’t think the Eldar had a chance now. They can’t take losses without inflicting huge amounts of casualties in return.

CONCLUSION
I think that setting up guard in a classic gunline across the entire deployment zone is a huge mistake. I concentrated most of my infantry on half the length of the board ( like a 3-4ft section of my deployment zone, my vehicles in 2 clusters all close to each other giving support and blocking side shots to each other. I felt like I had enough fire power, even while advancing 5 of my 8 platoon squads on turn 2. I don’t know how useful things like the Tarot, Psychic Hood or Improved Comms would be. I’d like to have another unit that’s more mobile though. I think maybe having a chimera might help. But I don’t see anywhere to take the points from. I think perhaps the auto canno in the HQ command squad is a waste and could be replaced and added to another squad as a plasma gun or two?

Thoughts (if you lived through my epic and rambling monologue)

Sounds like some useful lessons were learned.

(hiding behind a 4+ wall on a hill, so 3+ because they are pathfinders)

2+, or it was a 5+ wall, or they were Rangers.

Don't forget to add in a Inquisitor with the Emperor's Tarot.

Having 2 Basilisks + first turn = whiney Eldar player putting on his pouty face.

:lol:

IG need a real focus on their doctrines and what you want to accomplish with the army in the game to be viable, slapping together 2 battleforce boxes does not a army make.

At the LA GT, my very small Eldar army (smaller than Chaos, ok?) gunned down 300+ IG in two games. Was it all my army list, given that of my 'invulnerable' Falcons/Prism, 1 of each survived? (That means 4 dead).

Nope. It's totally your ability to adapt. You, as a IG player, have the option of bringing 10 10-wound 48" Range S7 or S9 shots with Sharpshooter. You can still bring tons more, it's not easy to ignore and it's nigh impossible to assault. This does indeed 'hurt' alot of armies. Try stacking yourself into a corner, the major weakness of Eldar armies is their range. 36" sucks. If you put 15" of guards troops in between you and your basilisks, it's going to be a real bitch for the Eldar player to pick them off as you'll be able to unload your whole array of firepower at his 'invulnerable' tanks.

Eldar aren't an army you beat, they're an army you perform real-time risk management on. Once you realize they can apply alot of firepower wherever they want to, you'll realize soon after that giving them only the place YOU want them to apply said firepower (and having the balls to take it on the chin when they do) will net you victory after victory.

Afraid of tank shock? Put your tanks in front, give yourself fire lines past them, and laugh at their tactics.
Oops, was that a secret? IG can make themselves immune to the idiotic yard-long tank shock of the Eldar. Make a nice deployment zone with no room for tanks to tank shock, put the tarpit out front and zap anything that comes into range.

Eldar are just as good, and just as beatable, as any other army currently.

Excluding Necrons, who suck glowing orbs.

AUTOCANNONS, HB and hellhounds. AUtocannons are by far the most cost effective at glancing 12 AV vehicles. Since they have skimmers, the LC will be overkill. Plus AP4 wpns deal with eldar quite nicely. I have yet to play any good eldar players. I am sick of playing marines and chaos. I usually crush the eldar people.