8th Ed. Grey Knight Tactica Discussion - Mathhammer (Data To be Revised)

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**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

**Xenomancers**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

**psipso**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

The problem that I use to get in with crow / purifiers is not that the 3" inch smite but that the charge phase happens after the psychic phase. It makes them really hard to deliver. How do you manage to get the d6 smite on your turn?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.

**Smotejob**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.

Crowe is good at killing gants and orks. That's about it. He is even bad against demons. If you want to fill the cheap hq, brother champion goes farther and can when correctly buffed wound t8 on 4s with d3 wounds and ap-3. He is also good at going to to toe with big stuff and tanking it all game.

**Quickjager**

So the big question I suppose is how do you handle character protection and delivery method for Crowe.

From there the question will be is that amount of investment worth it compared to where else you could put the points elsewhere for GK.

**Xenomancers**

Quickjager wrote:
So the big question I suppose is how do you handle character protection and delivery method for Crowe.

From there the question will be is that amount of investment worth it compared to where else you could put the points elsewhere for GK.

Sometimes the opponent comes to you. That makes it easy.

The other option is storm raven (this is a decent character assassination method IF you can fit the storm raven in a gap somewhere)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Smotejob wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.

Crowe is good at killing gants and orks. That's about it. He is even bad against demons. If you want to fill the cheap hq, brother champion goes farther and can when correctly buffed wound t8 on 4s with d3 wounds and ap-3. He is also good at going to to toe with big stuff and tanking it all game.

Every single unit in a mono GK army has a d3 damage weapon though.

Does that help you against harliquens? Not really.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Xenomancers wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I love the new poll for the thread. Only a couple of people are actually defending Crowe for whatever reason.

The whole codex blows. Crowe actually does something useful and is cheap. D6 smite is useful. Crowe is situationally good (think how many ork boys he can kill) unlike most the codex which is just bad at all times.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Honestly both crowe and brother captains need to move to the bad to medicore (per grey knights standards) and Landraiders, rhinos, and librarians into the unplayable category.

Please stop defending Crowe, seriously. A regular Champ is cheaper and gets access to relics (as mediocre as most of them are). His Smite range is pathetic, as otherwise we would be defending purifiers as a better way to launch that.

Or are you going to defend Purifiers too?

Can purifiers just be blown up without character protection? Yep. Sounds like even more expensive strike squad marines to me. I'm not defending him - hes bad - the whole codex is bad - the question is how bad. Since he is one of our best smiters -and has elite chaff clearing on a character protected unit - he can't be the worst unit in the codex which is what the chart made by Quickjagger seems to suggest. Purifiers are unquestionably worse than crowe because of character protection.

Also - the ancient banner needs to be upgraded to best units category. He always gets my free relic and I never take additional relics because they all suck (except for the storm bolter - sometimes I take that)

What Character protection? You saw the range he needs his Smite for, right? There IS no Character protection at that point. At least Purifiers can double up on Psilencers for not many more points and ACTUALLY do chaff clearing like you want.

Well Crowe is a suicide bomb once he enters combat. I include crowe in some lists because hes fun and doesn't hurt me. Taking purifiers is auto lose. Plus no - crowe does more damage to chaff than 2 psilences. Do the math.

5 Storm Bolters or 3 Storm Bolters and 2 Psilencers, then either 11 attacks at AP-2 or 7 attacks at AP-2 (with the 2 single hits at no AP) is much better than Crowe's profile. Simply no comparison.

I said he does more damage than 2 silencers. Not that he outshoots a purifier squad.

**Slayer-Fan123**

The point is that the shooting is incorporated with the melee. If you wanna magically say Crowe got off his Smite and made it to combat, I can magically do the same thing about their shooting and smite and melee.

Not to mention they'll likely be in range of a rerolling of 1's to hit, since you like adding buffs from HQ's without points.

**Xenomancers**

You seem to think moving crowe from unplayable to bad in the worst overall codex in the game is a big deal man. Crowe isn't even our worst unit. It's probably purifiers - a unit you are toting around like it's great.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Xenomancers wrote:
You seem to think moving crowe from unplayable to bad in the worst overall codex in the game is a big deal man. Crowe isn't even our worst unit. It's probably purifiers - a unit you are toting around like it's great.

At least Purifiers have better density of Special Weapons than anything not a Purgator (who basically negate their only strength now that they only have a single attack) and do the same smite. Crowe just doesn't have a use.

And no I don't defend Purifiers as good, and they're actually near the bottom with Terminators and Librarians. Crowe is the absolute bottom though.

**Xenomancers**

How many strikes are you taking in a list?

I take 60. I have density of PA covered. I've got a ton of storm bolters. What I need is ways to kill things with good saves heros that are inside my lines slaying my PA - need it to happen quick. Nothing quicker than hitting it with 2 d6 smites from ancient banner and crowe. There is your roll. Don't need another d3 damage attacker. I literally start with 60 of them off the bat.

**Slayer-Fan123**

I've done 40ish, with the rest being Purgators for Psilencers.

If you really cared about ignoring that many saves you would be going for as many super smites as you can, but you only have the Banner dude and Crowe. That's two nondurable models for maybe 6-7 Mortal Wounds.

Not worth the cost of almost 200 points and a Relic slot. That HQ slot could go to a Dreadmaster instead.

**Quickjager**

Xeno, I don't think it is anything close to practical to assume a GK army can keep a unit in a list as counter-charger; I agree that in deployment you can decide to separate him from the Stormraven if it warrants. But do you want to really take it there when the same Stormraven and Purifiers can actually do the same thing Crowe does in regards to offense?

Are you putting anything else in this Flyer?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Quickjager wrote:
Xeno, I don't think it is anything close to practical to assume a GK army can keep a unit in a list as counter-charger; I agree that in deployment you can decide to separate him from the Stormraven if it warrants. But do you want to really take it there when the same Stormraven and Purifiers can actually do the same thing Crowe does in regards to offense?

And the Purifiers would do more damage thanks to having more weapons.

**Ctanforlife**

Aenarel wrote:
First leaks from French Wargame Studio, the guy is pretty much always spot on when he reveals things (since he gets it directly from GW) so you can probably take the following for granted:

- Land Speeder to 50 points.
- Chapter Approved for the 15 of December (approximately)
-Crisis suits a little over 30 pts
- Not much nerfs and mostly ups.
- Named characters cost a lot less, to the point that they may become auto-includes. Castellan Crow is now 80 points and Trajann droped by 75 pts for example.
- Codex SoB release for oct/nov 2019
- Farsight to 125pts
- Eldrad is 15 points cheaper
- +3pts on shining spears
- +60/70 pts for the Necron super heavy (more than likely the Tesseract Vault)
- No change for Abaddon
- Chos cultists to 5pts
- Deathwatch (and more generally all space marines) droped by 5-10%
- Draigo << 200pts
- Intercessor had a very small points drop.
-Warden Custodes' cost is now closer to their troops, the terminators also got a reduction.
- Almost no nerfs for the IK (nothing on the small ones, a bit on the big ones).

what do you guys think?

**Smotejob**

Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.

Pray this isn't false hope

**Slayer-Fan123**

I still wouldn't take Crowe at 80 points but he'd be less of a waste.

No chance Purifiers get their second attack back, huh?

**Ctanforlife**

Smotejob wrote:
Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.

Pray this isn't false hope

point drops are nice but i dont think this is the right move, we're an elite army and we need to be more powerful.. not to deploy more bodies

**Smotejob**

Ctanforlife wrote:
Smotejob wrote:
Crowe at 80 is interesting and more usable at that point cost. And with draigo at 200, I wonder what the cost of the other hq choices and characters are going to be. I could see champion around 70, Libby around 100, brother Capt 110, gm about 120 (which would be closer to custodes cost for hqs). These changes alone would help a bit. More bodies on the board is always helpful.

Pray this isn't false hope

point drops are nice but i dont think this is the right move, we're an elite army and we need to be more powerful.. not to deploy more bodies

Yeah but it's most likely what will happen in CA. I'm happy gk are getting some attention

**Ctanforlife**

Danarc wrote:
Chapter approved 2018 rumors

- Rites of Banishment is getting removed or changed, seems GK are getting the regular Smite power
- armies with -1 to hit are getting changed to +1 cover save

Rites of Banishment removed is really appreciated if this is true! As a GK player im really happy about these rumors, as a necron player i dont even know what to say

**Smotejob**

If rights of banishment is removed and we keep the smite as normal then gk are going to go crazy with MW

**Sterling191**

FWIW the sourcing on "SMITE FOR EVERYTHING GK" is very, very thin.

**Smotejob**

Normal smite is 2.2 mw average. That would be a gnarly increase.

**Quickjager**

The MW increase isn't even what matters, it's the fact that it will actually have a longer range, which in turn could actually make the Brother-Captain a "okay" choice because you'll be doubling a 18 inch range, not 12, meaning we can actually reach out and touch things.

On the other hand it means Purifiers and Crowe who we were just discussing are ironically even more trash.

**Grey Templar**

While it is somewhat welcome, I would infinitely prefer being allowed to ignore Psychic Focus and let all of our psykers actually cast their chosen power instead of reducing our glorious psychic abilities to just throwing mortal wounds around. Mortal wounds are soooooooooo boring.... I hate how the game has just been reduced to "whoever can throw the most mortal wounds around wins!"

**greyknight12**

Smotejob wrote:
If rights of banishment is removed and we keep the smite as normal then gk are going to go crazy with MW

Only if we get to keep the "no negatives for consecutive smites" thing we currently have going

**Smotejob**

greyknight12 wrote:
Smotejob wrote:
If rights of banishment is removed and we keep the smite as normal then gk are going to go crazy with MW

Only if we get to keep the "no negatives for consecutive smites" thing we currently have going

Not a big fan of 1d3 smites... Despite my name. I think that may deter people from wanting to play gk who have no psychic defense.

Much rather keep 1w smite, but be able to cast other powers multiple times.

**psipso**

Ctanforlife wrote:
Danarc wrote:
Chapter approved 2018 rumors

- Rites of Banishment is getting removed or changed, seems GK are getting the regular Smite power
- armies with -1 to hit are getting changed to +1 cover save

Rites of Banishment removed is really appreciated if this is true! As a GK player im really happy about these rumors, as a necron player i dont even know what to say

How would you guys play GK if we got normal smite? I mean hypothetically and just assuming, to be safe, that we get psychic focus for smite.

P.S.: The guy from tabletop tactics seems to have won a tournament with a 100% GK army. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YRu683wziQ0) Even if it's not a full competitive tournament makes me feel that there is hope