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It does make you scratch your head unless they're not meant to be traditional feathers but something weird and woccor specific

and even then they'd look too much like half finished feathers

Scary bad work there.

FB had a thing of 2 monsters for the price of one promotion extended for another week… Is it me or that does not sound good news?

Pretty much all of the sales have been extended, it's how they draw traffic since they're not doing minis KS

so nothing new to worry about there

Yeah, very typical Mierce behavior, especially as Orlando notes that they aren't running and Kickstarters currently.

Now, having said that, some of Mierce's 'regular' behavior doesn't exactly make one get all warm and fuzzy either...

I've felt for a while that the Mierce business plan is an unhealthy mix of boutique high-end stuff mixed with a discount heavy, high-volume sales mentality.

I don't think that they ever fully moved on from the Maelstrom business plan in that regard.

A lot of business decisions that they have made make me think that there have been cash flow problems for a while.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I've felt for a while that the Mierce business plan is an unhealthy mix of boutique high-end stuff mixed with a discount heavy, high-volume sales mentality.

I don't think that they ever fully moved on from the Maelstrom business plan in that regard.

A lot of business decisions that they have made make me think that there have been cash flow problems for a while.

We join kickstarters to help fund a production run, and in return we get the minis at a discouted cost...
The price we pay is having to wait for that production...at this stage I'm nearly 3 years out for some of mine.

But with the frequency that Mierce does BOGOF and 30% off sales, I'd have been much MUCH better off simply waiting for the mini to finally be available at "full cost" then grabbing during a sale event.
And, yes, I believe thy are struggling with maintaining the sales volume they would need to be a profitable business...Darkland products aren't exactly flying off the shelves.

It's a pity, but I think they need to redo the rules to something that flows and reads better, and release as a free PDF...but I SERIOUSLY doubt that will happen.

My Wocor is for sale at a steep discount if anyone is interested

EXTENDED TO THE 14th OF JANUARY!

We've decided to extend our awesome buy one, get one free monster madness by another week due to popular demand - so now you've a little more time to take part!

we're now giving a monster away for FREE if you purchase any monster from our webstore until midnight (GMT) on Monday the 14th of January 2019!

Now, while I understand (and appreciate!) that Mierce is doing fewer Kickstarters in order to catch up on their rather large backlog...these frequent sales (with frequent extensions) feel very Kickstarter-like.

And feel like they probably distract from reducing that significant queue of minis, waiting to be sculpted, cast and shipped.

I feel like I have a lot of items that have been waiting a long time.

Still, Catch-22 and all that.

Mierce needs sales to survive, and Sales help generate sales, so survive they will!

Hopefully that inhouse metal casting gets up and running soon...

IMO there is only so much demand for miniatures that have no game system to back them.

Is a lot of fantasy miniatures on the market and most brands that survive are either cheap like reaper or tied to a game system people actually play.

So again IMO Mierce is killing their sales and in general their ability to survive long term by not making the game available and playable to the majority of players. Many commented about the issues with the game system they wrote and were ignored....since then I have only bought a couple minis and only as poxies for other popular game systems.

People vote with their wallets...and the triple extended sale says a lot to me......

It shouldn't, Mierce not extending their sale would be like DFS not having their sofas on sale.

I think there's plenty of room for a boutique company that does what Mierce does, trouble is you'd need to make in roads into the painting community then, and I'm not sure that's happened sufficiently either.

 Alpharius wrote:
Now, while I understand (and appreciate!) that Mierce is doing fewer Kickstarters in order to catch up on their rather large backlog...these frequent sales (with frequent extensions) feel very Kickstarter-like.

And feel like they probably distract from reducing that significant queue of minis, waiting to be sculpted, cast and shipped.

Unlike constant Kickstarters, however, I the consumer waiting for stuff (Crushers please!) don't get the feeling that fresh models are being shoved into the sculpting queue as a result of these sales. As opposed to KS, which digs the backlog hole deeper. I mean, from a sculpting standpoint - I can see how taking a whole lot of new orders for old stock means they've got to be cast up, as opposed to putting new sculpts into production.

The frequent sales, tho, are the reason I don't really KS Mierce. I've late pledged a couple things, but it became clear that I should just keep my pants on and get the monsters when they release, maybe even for cheaper.

chaos45 wrote:
IMO there is only so much demand for miniatures that have no game system to back them.

Is a lot of fantasy miniatures on the market and most brands that survive are either cheap like reaper or tied to a game system people actually play.

So again IMO Mierce is killing their sales and in general their ability to survive long term by not making the game available and playable to the majority of players. Many commented about the issues with the game system they wrote and were ignored....since then I have only bought a couple minis and only as poxies for other popular game systems.

People vote with their wallets...and the triple extended sale says a lot to me......

Not sure how many of you are in the mierce sections of facebook, but people go crazy for these sales, and (though I'm sure you'll choose to disbelieve it), it looks like Mierce has extended due to people asking them to. Not sure why extending sales instantly leads to a company going under? I suppose it's only a few people asking for an extension on the deal, but instead of ending the sale, and others who might be on the fence missing out, they just publicly extend it, so everyone knows. Seems more fair than Shady to me (but of course, the disbelief is STRONG with some). Warlord is in a constant sales mode, and I feel like a get an email from Mantic every few weeks with a sale. GW is the only one who doesn't run them.

Also, they did a more condensed version of the rules 'awhile' ago (ie over a year) based on people saying that they were too complex. And they announced last year that they were testing a V2 of the rules, which are much simpler, which will launch this year. So we'll see, but saying they were ignored is a lie.

There's a lot of things Mierce needs to do better, and they are well aware that they are behind in the sculpting log, and most everything else. But they are making forward progress, and trying to get things running more smoothly. It's understandable that some are angry at them for the delays, but I don't see constantly yelling and nit picking everything they do as a way of making that happen faster.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a 'Mierce-apologist', and asking the internet to calm down (especially on Dakka) isn't ever going to work.

... I was going to type almost the same thing during recess but then my computer ate it due to a poor connection and SkullKing summed it up better.

My only issue with the sales is the stuff I'd be buying multiple extra copies of still aren't released!

 skullking wrote:


But then again, what do I know, I'm just a 'Mierce-apologist', and asking the internet to calm down (especially on Dakka) isn't ever going to work.

Curiously enough, Dakka has absolutely nothing to say on the subject.

I've had stuff on order/in the queue for YEARS now.

Years.

So yeah, I'm a little fed up at this point.

 skullking wrote:
It's understandable that some are angry at them for the delays, but I don't see constantly yelling and nit picking everything they do as a way of making that happen faster.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a 'Mierce-apologist', and asking the internet to calm down (especially on Dakka) isn't ever going to work.

Who's "constantly yelling and nit-picking"? Are you of the view that any criticism is bad criticism / an attack?

I just got a box of KS delights

(admittedly outstanding for a while but it does show deliveries are ongoing so these sales do contribute to helping them deliver)

so I can recommend the brute corruptors (NSFW)



all of five the Peat Beast warriors like Gainn here on 50mm bases if the previous 80mm based Bog Beasts were too large



and my first hollow cast Mierce mini Crémharunc, Beast of Geanainn Earth is going to be fantastic (and huge) on a 120mm base assuming it goes together well



I also got my Scuttling Nucranc



and my giant crab or cráncull




and if they can get the final council ok for the spin casting hopefully that will let them get a whole bunch of other fulfilment done as they clearly put the brakes of sending any of the more recently finished stuff out for metal casting (although they may find the raw material cost of Bobs larger humans more expensive than they expect compared to the smaller hand sculpted earlier stuff as a small change in height means a larger change in volume)

JWBS wrote:

 skullking wrote:
It's understandable that some are angry at them for the delays, but I don't see constantly yelling and nit picking everything they do as a way of making that happen faster.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a 'Mierce-apologist', and asking the internet to calm down (especially on Dakka) isn't ever going to work.

Who's "constantly yelling and nit-picking"? Are you of the view that any criticism is bad criticism / an attack?

Not 'any', just 'some', as stated. You can give good feedback without tossing accusations and convey your point more clearly with a good tone.

I'm as guilty as anyone of some irrational overzealous posting.

 skullking wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 skullking wrote:
It's understandable that some are angry at them for the delays, but I don't see constantly yelling and nit picking everything they do as a way of making that happen faster.

But then again, what do I know, I'm just a 'Mierce-apologist', and asking the internet to calm down (especially on Dakka) isn't ever going to work.

Who's "constantly yelling and nit-picking"? Are you of the view that any criticism is bad criticism / an attack?

Not 'any', just 'some', as stated. You can give good feedback without tossing accusations and convey your point more clearly with a good tone.

I'm as guilty as anyone of some irrational overzealous posting.

Indeed.

If you go from KS to KS and the lure there is getting more minis at better prices what does it say to you as a customer that the same company runs 2 for the price of one sales frequently? Not that its going under but rather that its strategy is a bit off to say the least. No yelling or hate ( I don't do KS's) just does not inspire me much trust.
Like if all of a sudden 100% off the workload you have in front of you for today becomes Urgent then at the same time Urgent becomes redundant because all jobs are the same. The same principle applies to constant discounts… the full retail price becomes redundant… as does KS'rs.

 skullking wrote:
[...] Not sure why extending sales instantly leads to a company going under?

Worth knowing that Mierce was founded from the ashes of Maelstrom Games, which had a prolonged period of heavily discounted sales (including 50% off the miniatures that became the base of Mierce) getting extended instantly back in 2012, many of which simply failed to deliver (though I believe Maelstrom delivered on all their in-house models - I received all of mine).

I don't worry about it too much (backlog models tend to get shipped very quickly), but there's definitely a context for being concerned with the game.

The other issue with Mierce inflating their MSRP and heavily discounting it is that it removes any potential for the minis to be picked up locally.

.

Just to follow up on Mr. Skullking's post...
Yes, absolutely we are fed up with the delays, but to simply sit back quietly while new sculpts like the Wokor are given priority, and to sit back quietly while items we paid for years ago are sold off at a LOWER price than what we paid for all that time ago...doesn't "help" Mierce either.
They need to know this sort of thing IS noticed, and that long term fans are not happy.

So I get your point, but Mierce should not just get off Scott free...and if a verbal bollocking is appropriate, than that's what they should get.

OK, tin-foil hat time...
Look at the Wokor, for example, I think I figured out what happened...(Just my guesswork here...)

It was sculpted by Bob with a particular scale in mind, and was supposed to be much smaller, maybe half...but Rob wanted a bigger mini, so it was upscaled.

Now I have NO WAY to know that, but it makes sense when you see Bob's previous work, and the fact that no details on the Wokor couldn't easily be shrunk down 50%

In fact at half the size, (As in dimensions, not weight), it would have been a PERFECT mini...IMHO

The issue with the pricing makes a lot more sense to me now. I appreciate everyone explaining it. I'm glad that they still give priority to KS backers when something is finished, but to all your points, if you could have paid 'less' and gotten it sent out right away, that would be better of course.

I think their issues started with the 'First ed. 2' KS, which was pretty big. They hadn't finished sculpting and fulfilling it by the time they ran the 'New Kindreds' KS, which was HUGELY overpacked with stretch goals and deals. I think they've been trying to play catch up to a degree since then. As that was a monumental KS to fulfill, (though they eventually did), it required much longer (and I'd guess more money) than anticipated. In that time a lot of things changed. GW got themselves back on track with fantasy & 40k. Sculptors were getting loads of work from other KS and companies, so I'm sure it was harder to lock them down (I have no idea if you can 'lock in' most of these sculptors for extended periods of time or a large group of projects? I'd imagine if they're anything like the artists I deal with, they're in high demand, and take the best paying jobs as they come in. Many don't like to be held to one project for too long. But I'm sure they're all different).

In any case, it's been a slow accent of the pile of work they need to finish. Thank goodness for Bob, and the 3D printer and (hopefully) the metal casting. Though I feel a few more casters would help a lot too.

The newer figures don't bother me as much as the resculpts of stuff we already have just because they don't like an older rendition. I get with certain things, they had planned to do conversions of existing figures, like the Waelwulfs (who originally were pretty bad). So doing the melee ones right when they had done the missile troops sort of made sense. But, on the other hand, though it's a fairly quick change for Bob to do, I'd rather he just kept moving forward with the unsculpted stuff, or a new figure for the store. They can always go back and do those alts when they've got everything else done. Though some surely need to be redone. Redoing the Duguth on foot, after you do their mounted versions, seems a bit much. The current Duguth are fine, great really, and we're just using more of Bob's precious sculpt time, and clogging up Tim's Print and casting list.

I think Mierce is well aware they're behind, and doing things like cutting back on KS, and moving more business through the store, buying the 3D printer, Casting metal in house, redoing the Darklands rules to be much easier to understand, are all signs that they're working towards this end. If they can crawl out of the hole that they've created, I think they'll have a better idea of how to run they company in the future.

...and Rob doesn't show up here nearly as much as he used too either!

I think we all want Mierce to succeed - and catch up on that backlog!

Getting a Second Edition of their rules out there should help a bit too.

I'm still a bit worried about that though, as Rob is notoriously...not into getting help with things.

I can understand the tight reigns on the background, but he might want to consider getting some help on the rules side of things.

 skullking wrote:
The issue with the pricing makes a lot more sense to me now. I appreciate everyone explaining it. I'm glad that they still give priority to KS backers when something is finished, but to all your points, if you could have paid 'less' and gotten it sent out right away, that would be better of course.

I think their issues started with the 'First ed. 2' KS, which was pretty big. They hadn't finished sculpting and fulfilling it by the time they ran the 'New Kindreds' KS, which was HUGELY overpacked with stretch goals and deals. I think they've been trying to play catch up to a degree since then. As that was a monumental KS to fulfill, (though they eventually did), it required much longer (and I'd guess more money) than anticipated. In that time a lot of things changed. GW got themselves back on track with fantasy & 40k. Sculptors were getting loads of work from other KS and companies, so I'm sure it was harder to lock them down (I have no idea if you can 'lock in' most of these sculptors for extended periods of time or a large group of projects? I'd imagine if they're anything like the artists I deal with, they're in high demand, and take the best paying jobs as they come in. Many don't like to be held to one project for too long. But I'm sure they're all different).

In any case, it's been a slow accent of the pile of work they need to finish. Thank goodness for Bob, and the 3D printer and (hopefully) the metal casting. Though I feel a few more casters would help a lot too.

The newer figures don't bother me as much as the resculpts of stuff we already have just because they don't like an older rendition. I get with certain things, they had planned to do conversions of existing figures, like the Waelwulfs (who originally were pretty bad). So doing the melee ones right when they had done the missile troops sort of made sense. But, on the other hand, though it's a fairly quick change for Bob to do, I'd rather he just kept moving forward with the unsculpted stuff, or a new figure for the store. They can always go back and do those alts when they've got everything else done. Though some surely need to be redone. Redoing the Duguth on foot, after you do their mounted versions, seems a bit much. The current Duguth are fine, great really, and we're just using more of Bob's precious sculpt time, and clogging up Tim's Print and casting list.

I think Mierce is well aware they're behind, and doing things like cutting back on KS, and moving more business through the store, buying the 3D printer, Casting metal in house, redoing the Darklands rules to be much easier to understand, are all signs that they're working towards this end. If they can crawl out of the hole that they've created, I think they'll have a better idea of how to run they company in the future.

All good points, but remember that even after the time frames for sculpts started to slip,and they increased the ETA for newer KS'es each time, they still kept failing to meet them.
This was WELL after the ones you mentioned.

I'm waiting for stuff from Might Monsters; their 6th and 7th kickstarters, funded June 2016.
At that stage.fulfilment was forecast out at June 2017, a full year after.
It was then pushed out further and further...
It is now expected to be shipped March next year....God I hope so!

So, yes, they did dig themselves into a hole early on, but they just kept digging and digging...!

Things seem to be heading back to some sort of order now though, and whilst they promised that 2018 would be the year they finally cleared the backlog, it looks like 2019 might be more accurate.

 Alpharius wrote:
...and Rob doesn't show up here nearly as much as he used too either!

I think we all want Mierce to succeed - and catch up on that backlog!

Yeah, Rob not showing up to give the Mierce side of the story does add to the concern.

Anyway, as you say, we all want Mierce to succeed, lets hope that their business model is more sustainable than it appears.

I think one of the problems *might* be that, at least on the surface, clearing up the backlog might not generate funds quick enough/as quick as another flash sale?

Of course, clearing up the backlog does mean a lot of new things for people to buy and more sales, but it also means a lot of work and materials to send out stuff that was already paid for - and money that is, more likely than not, already long since spent?

At this point, I'm not sure why things are taking significantly longer than they 'should' take.

But my spending with Mierce is probably going to be as close to zero as possible until the backlog of miniatures owed me is greatly reduced.

The problem with the rules isn't even that it's a bad ruleset. Look at their batreps and intros etc. It looks interesting, fun, and pretty quick(ish, for a skirmish game) to play to boot.
And once you manage to bite through the extraordinarily dense writing, it does start to make sense.

...But it's sort of like the 231 page rules document for MtG. No beginner would possibly manage to suffer through that (and in fact, they explicitly state, on the download page and again on the front page of the doc itself, that you really, really shouldn't even try). They'd be turned away from the game in an instant. At the same time it's a pretty fun and accessible CCG, on a beginner level just as much as on tournament levels.

Darklands really needs that 'beginner rules' two page deck insert. I mean, you might need to clarify the concept of the stack, and effect activation order etc., a bit further but generally you can play with just that.

I'm not saying Darklands is *that* simple - it's not. Not even close. It's closer to Infinity level complexity than to KoW - if you'll pardon a reference frame that at least makes sense to me . And if you just leave out hackers infinity is actually quite straightforward to explain to a beginner, too (just whatever you do, get someone to demo it to you, don't start by reading the rulebook! )

Unlike GW systems the complexity is really all up front, in the ruleset itself, not so much in incessant unique snowflake rules for every. frakking. last. model, but generally if you can pick up a GW system picking up darklands shouldn't be too hard.

I think Mierce is in cash flow trouble. Catching up on their backlog generates next to zero new cash flow, it only costs them time and labor. From the looks of it they keep trying to sell their existing inventory at a sufficient rate to keep the business afloat on a month to month basis having long ago burned through the money from backers.

They still have sculpts/ ks rewards outstanding from two years ago? Then they have been borrowing from future demand to keep the current business running for a couple of years now from the sound of it.

I am pretty confident the majority of sales happens at initial release(KS), and they aren't selling enough of their current catalog regularly to give them breathing room to spend time and money on things promised to backers years ago.

 Gallahad wrote:
I think Mierce is in cash flow trouble. Catching up on their backlog generates next to zero new cash flow, it only costs them time and labor. From the looks of it they keep trying to sell their existing inventory at a sufficient rate to keep the business afloat on a month to month basis having long ago burned through the money from backers.

They still have sculpts/ ks rewards outstanding from two years ago? Then they have been borrowing from future demand to keep the current business running for a couple of years now from the sound of it.

I am pretty confident the majority of sales happens at initial release(KS), and they aren't selling enough of their current catalogue regularly to give them breathing room to spend time and money on things promised to backers years ago.

Yep, that's pretty much my feeling as well.

The money raised in the kickstarters was apparently not set aside solely to fund the production of those models, but use to expand the business for a perceived future growth in sales that never eventuated.
I dare say Rob was optimistic of gaining traction with Darklands, but hasn't managed to attract the volume of sales he hoped for.

So now, yes they are holding sale after sale to keep the money flowing in from a small but earnest group of fans, whilst they plug away at that still massive backlog.

Once they do eventually fulfill the kickstarters...what then?

Another big Kickstarter?

They use to be available at several places in the US but I don't think anyone's carried them in a few years. I know at the time Rob stated that sales that weren't direct were like 5% of their overall.

I'm not really sure why things didn't sell as there's lots of other games to use the lower priced Meirce stuff in and once you add the normal 10-15% web discount their metals are pretty reasonably priced. Maybe they just left the distribution market right before Frostgrave took off--not sure when that happened--but a lot of their stuff is ideal for that game.

I've boughten a few this from this via sales this year but the smaller metal units and I probably still would if something I really want appears. I don't have much left in the backlog -- just some Mallox and Reavers (which are being sculpted).

I'm still thinking they grew their line too fast but at the same time I can't think of what negative that really would have (outside of running so many KSers back to back) as they only have like 3-4 employees and tend to cast to order so they don't keep a large warehouse.