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orkswubwub wrote:

 scommy wrote:
Ehh in Battlescribe I cannot give Obliterators mark of Slaanesh, what gives? Oh nvm - I checked they are not infantry or biker anyways......

Are oblits worth it dropping in with a lord for the 1 rerolls? Anyone tried them?

Oblits are infantry in the codex unless this was FAQed

P.S. my updated version of battlescribe has not updated all point totals - plagues are still 8 points and abaddon is 253 or whatever. Just an FYI. Maybe I am having patch issues...

Oh yes your correct lol Thanks! I need to read codex closer. And in the codex it says <Mark of Chaos> under Oblits so you can use the stratagem. Looks well worth trying out to me. Dunno why Battlescribe does not allow it.

disappointment over Heldrakes

Ugh, tell me about it, flyers in general seem to have been nerfed if you don't drink the Terran kool-aid - I loved my Hell Blade that's now had its accuracy and fire rate kicked in. Strongly considering whipping off the hellstorm cannons for lascannons.

I'm building a Hell Talon that's been waiting to be made for a few months, so I can field a flyer wing for an upcoming big battle, but the likely use of this giant target... yeah, great, once per battle I can pop a mortal wound on a Knight and give it a -1 to hit for a turn, then pay 2CP to reload the bombs. That's definitely worth 12 power.

But to get back to Heldrakes, yeah, +2W & regen & four ok melee attacks don't compare to the loyalists getting two assault cannons, AND two sawnoff lascannons, AND a typhoon ML, AND airborne, AND hard to hit. Oh, yes, and we get 5++ on our flyers, but that's only going to help against anti-tank weapons, which are probably going to be aiming at other stuff and leaving anti-air to autocannon type stuff that doesn't care about 5++. I'm glad this battle's going to be a narrative one, because I'm going to have to take a sledgehammer to the Summoning piñata to make up for this points sink of a trio.

 lindsay40k wrote:


See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:

Black Legion DP
Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists

all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).

I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.

Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.

Just be happy that WE zerkers are for sure troops and EC noise marines are for sure troops. No malefic lords as HQs in those detachments if you want obsec.

Chaos has more than enough tools at their disposal without convoluting rules like that.

Try out a Maulerfiend. Amazing.

Oblits, shooting twice

Alpha legion zerkers, fighting thrice

Malefic lords, actually unfairly undercosted

Bloat drones

Magnus....no need to harp on him any more. Grab a changeling for some cheap force multiplication & 3 CP at bargain basement prices. Profit

There are index armies that simply can't deal with those types of units. Don't waste time on cheap tricks

 luke1705 wrote:

 lindsay40k wrote:


See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:

Black Legion DP
Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists

all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).

I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.

Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.

Just be happy that WE zerkers are for sure troops and EC noise marines are for sure troops. No malefic lords as HQs in those detachments if you want obsec.

Chaos has more than enough tools at their disposal without convoluting rules like that.

Try out a Maulerfiend. Amazing.

Oblits, shooting twice

Alpha legion zerkers, fighting thrice

Malefic lords, actually unfairly undercosted

Bloat drones

Magnus....no need to harp on him any more. Grab a changeling for some cheap force multiplication & 3 CP at bargain basement prices. Profit

There are index armies that simply can't deal with those types of units. Don't waste time on cheap tricks

Has there been an update on the rules? Because page 240 of the rulebook, which explains how factions works, suggests that only one faction keyword needs to match. I haven't read anything to suggest units in a detatchment need to match all keywords. So im not sure if lindsay40k's example isnt legal.

Well hang on, I'm not holding up 'Chaos' (or even 'Heretic Astartes') as the keyword in question. I'm working from:

"A CSM detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords"

'These' in the passage refers solely to the LEGION Keywords within the Codex. 'Alpha Legion' is one of these keywords. 'World Eaters' is one of these keywords. And so on. A case can easily be made that a multi-Legion Black Crusade can be represented by a single, diverse, detachment that is made up of Heretic Astartes who each have one of the LEGION keywords from the the Codex - which would not get Legion traits, but would get ObSec and Legion Stratagems & battlefield roles.

I'm not agreeing with the case or advocating for it or planning to cite it. (In fact, I'm kind of sore about Berzerker Troops, as I was quite relieved that I seemed to be clear to take a WE detachment of two zerks and a term squad with no cultist tax.) I'm saying that I don't think it can be dismissed based on the semantics we currently have to work with.

What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?

 lindsay40k wrote:
Well hang on, I'm not holding up 'Chaos' (or even 'Heretic Astartes') as the keyword in question. I'm working from:

"A CSM detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords"

'These' in the passage refers solely to the LEGION Keywords within the Codex. 'Alpha Legion' is one of these keywords. 'World Eaters' is one of these keywords. And so on. A case can easily be made that a multi-Legion Black Crusade can be represented by a single, diverse, detachment that is made up of Heretic Astartes who each have one of the LEGION keywords from the the Codex - which would not get Legion traits, but would get ObSec and Legion Stratagems & battlefield roles.

This seems correct.This is only relevant to despoilers of the galaxy (obsec) and unlocking CSM stratagems. I don't think the stratagems are then restricted for use in chaos marine detachments, only chaos marine units (Which could be in a mixed detachment)

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?

With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.

Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.

 luke1705 wrote:


Yeah that's not even a valid rules loophole IMO. Obviously they mean one of the same keyword. "Chaos" isn't a valid option, and they can't all have one if they all have different ones. That's just a failure to read the English language to assume that "all have one of the same" means "all have any keyword". Would literally mean nothing if it meant the latter.

No, it would not be meaningless. The rule states:

"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords."

The book provides a list of what the keywords are. It declares that all units in a detachment must have one of these keywords. What the book does not say is:

"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords, each possessing the same Legion keyword.." If it did, I would agree with your interpretation. But otherwise - this is a matter of basic set theory. The book provides a set, the rules state you must pick an item from the set for each unit, and that the units must be organized into a detachment. It says nothing about each unit needing to have the same Legion keyword.

Further, the book goes on to say: "If your army is Battle-forged, all Infantry, Bikers, and Helbrute units in Chaos Spare Detachments gain a Legion Trait, so long as every unit in that Detachment is from the same Legion."

GW is making a specific allowance for mixing Legions within a detachment, and explaining what the penalty is for doing so. So let's not twist around the rules and claim other people don't know how to read, the topic is discussed about 150 words later.

It's perfectly legal to have a detachment featuring an Alpha Legion sorcerer, a World Eaters Berzerker Squad and an Emperor's Children Noise Marine squad, happily fighting the slaves to the False Emperor side-by-side. Let's talk about the merits of a mixed Legion detachment instead, which I believe are outweighed by the drawbacks. Starting with the idea that Sonic Weapons melt bones, skulls are bones, and those Berzerkers are going to have an awful time creating a pile of skulls after the battle. The fact they don't get Legion traits is far outweighed by the concerns over fluff.

Agree that the rules clearly assume that there is such a thing as a Chaos Space Marine detachment where the units are not all from the same Legion.

Mazzyx wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?

With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.

Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.

Second this, the Slaaneshi psychic power looks to have excellent synergy with Possessed as well. Possibly our best option in plasma-rich metagames.

For punching cheap hordes, Noise Marines with Chainswords are like Chosen but with ObSec, a point cheaper, and the ability to take 20. And assuming you're taking a Dark Apostle, their lower Ld won't come back to bite you.

 lindsay40k wrote:

Mazzyx wrote:

DreamIsCollapsing wrote:
What are the thoughts one Chaos melee units ? Except Berzekers wich are out of question (coz i play Emperor's Children) and the obvious daemon prince wich units are best for close combat ? Chosen ? Possessed ?

With the upgrade to two wounds and some of the stratagems like veterans of the long war and excessive violence(I am at work I think it is called that, the one with more attacks per model removed) I think possessed can be a nasty bomb to drop on an enemy as Emp Children. I have been wanting to run them instead of a zerker unit in my land raider but have been doing konor missions where I am always a defender in the back not attacking things.

Also DPs are just nuts with Slaanesh/EC. Always strike first except if they get charged and the opponent chooses the charger first. I ran mine last time with an elixir, the wound and 6+++ warlord trait, duel talons, and diabolic strength as his spell. He was a blender.

Second this, the Slaaneshi psychic power looks to have excellent synergy with Possessed as well. Possibly our best option in plasma-rich metagames.

For punching cheap hordes, Noise Marines with Chainswords are like Chosen but with ObSec, a point cheaper, and the ability to take 20. And assuming you're taking a Dark Apostle, their lower Ld won't come back to bite you.

This Saturday I was able to keep a unit of normal CSM alive through three rounds of combat with purestrain genestealers using the Slaanesh psychic power. It is fantastic and hard not to take on at least one psyker.

The big thing is if they're talking about legion keywords or any faction keywords, since they call both "faction" keywords.

I do believe that RAW you'll get obsec even with mixed legion detachments. I think it's even possible that it's intended, but that is something that certainly could use an FAQ. For me, it goes firmly in the category of "don't build an army around this until we get an FAQ"

How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.

saint_red wrote:
How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.

I'm only using one but they are amazing

saint_red wrote:
How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.

At least 1 is on my to buy list. Maybe 2. I want them escorting a rhino full of possessed/zerkers with apostle/champ support. I figure that is a turn two line smash that will make most opponents cry.

saint_red wrote:
How are we liking the new lasher maulerfiends? They look absolutely brutal now and I'm thinking of putting two of them on my to buy list. With their speed and damage output they look like the perfect unit to support a big turn 1 or 2 deep strike.

I love them. Even at <25%, it's still 8 attacks with rerolls on to hits and to wounds if you didnt waste all your CP before. It shreds MEQs, TEQs.
Cast Diabolic Strength on it for maximum nastiness against those. If it is >25%, with DS, the tendrils even feth up Predator/Cybot-equivalents royally.

Someone said that the FW WE BLoodslaughterer or whatever is still better, but I dont intend to buy FW stuff.

Tomorrow i field a unit of melee Plague Marines:

7 Marined, 2 Flaills, 4 Axe+Knife, Champ with fist
+Sorcerer of Nurgle for Prescience/Miasma on them

Be sure to let us know how those melee PM do, I've been having a tough time deciding what loadout to go with my PM

The Bloodslaughterer is probably better than the Maulerfiend, but I plan on running one of each just for flavor (and because I cant afford a 2nd FW model right now!) They fill a similar role, but are different. I think the main thing that sets the BS above the fiend is its speed, but the fiend can benefit from the other gods psychic powers so its a bit of a toss up IMHO.

With Plague Marines, I've been thinking two Blight Launchers, two Bolters, two Flails, two Axes, and then something on the champ, and then one more guy to do something. My reasoning for keeping the Bolters is that the Flails will contribute enough attacks to help clear what's attacking them. That's just me though.

What I have been toying with so far (all in theory as I am waiting for DG codex before I commit to putting things together) is 7-man PM squads with 2 blight launchers, 2 flails, and a champ with PF and plaguesword. Seems like solid all around unit. Also debating on a unit or 2 of msu with triple plasma

Sokhar wrote:
If your opponent is dumb enough not to use any sort of screen whatsoever, the Heldrake can conceivably charge a unit to impact it's shooting...and then probably fail to kill anything. If you want it to accomplish anything beyond that, or your opponent is competent enough to screen off important units, it's a waste of 185 points. Speaking from experience, not just negative theory-crafting. The movement speed is great, but it's overpriced--either needs to be a good bit cheaper still, more durable, or have more attacks so it can actually inflict some damage.

After all the time I spent painting and converting mine, I certainly wish they were better.

The good old "General worth his salt" argument.

So you're suggesting a screen for every unit? You're going to spend those points and then...you're going to rely on them not being gone when he charges? Im just asking. That seems like an awful lot of assuming there but...yes. That COULD happen.

Ultimately the Heldrake isn't AS good as before but its role has changed also. I think experimenting with it is worth it.

I dunno I used the Heldrake like twice before the codex even hit. I had a decent performance, and even though the Baleflamer isn't as good as it once was, it has no issues with firing arcs (making it infinitely more useable) and having a unit that can charge about anything is pretty awesome. I'm focused more on Loyalists at the moment, but I can tell you that, with the point drop, the Baledrake is still pretty awesome.

Howre people feeling about possessed?

20 Possessed (Alpha Legion) w/ Changeling, near a herald for +1 str and a Daemon Prince for rerolls feels pretty good in my head.

 lindsay40k wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:

 thundertau wrote:
the wording on page 156 seems to say otherwise, unless i'm reading it wrong.
"A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with on of these keywords"
How would you be able to keep them in the same detachment while having different legion keyowrds?

It just wouldn't be a CSM detachment. You could have it be a generic chaos detachment instead. It is a weird rule though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thundertau wrote:
re-reading the page a few times, i think i've just read it too literally, going by what youse are saying. Just to clarify, you can mix and match, but if you decide to mix and match at all you lose out on legion traits but gain "extra troops"?

You'd lose all the unique stuff from the codex, including obsec and traits/relics/tactics. In return, you'd be able to mix in demons as well as mix legions, though there isn't much point beyond having cult troops. Even that's just for cp as they don't gain any other benefit for being troops. So in practice I doubt anyone will but you still can do so.

See, where pg156 says "A Chaos Space Marine Detachment is therefore one which only includes units with one of these keywords", I could read that to mean that:

Black Legion DP
Word Bearers Sorcerer
World Eaters Berzerkers
Emperor's Children Noise Marines
Night Lords Cultists

all have "one of these keywords". The same could be said of the similar paragraph in the Space Marines Codex (which specifically requires the units have AA as a Faction as well; the lack of HA Faction requirement is odd, considering the rest of the paragraph is identical, save the CHAPTER and LEGION specifics - almost as odd as Cultists *getting* HA as a keyword, even if that is just to ensure aura/psychic compatibility).

I have no intention to abuse this myself, but the question is open on both RAI & RAW here and definitely needs an FAQ so we all know where we are. Meantime, I'd recommend assuming it does mean you must have LEGION purity to be a CSM detachment, based on the omission of DG & TS from qualification, and also on the common sense maxim of 'don't spend a load of money on kits to exploit a rules interpretation which might be shut down within a few weeks'.

The 8/20/17 FAQ did fix this issue.

https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/40K_8th_ed_Update_Codex_Chaos_Space_Marines_ver_1.0.pdf

ERRATA:
Page 116 – <Mark of Chaos>
Add the following to the last paragraph:
‘If a unit has the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh keywords, it cannot be from the World Eaters Legion, and if a unit has the Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle keywords, it cannot be from the Emperor’s Children Legion. In addition, Psykers cannot be from the World Eater's Legion.’

I half expected that, but Emperors Children Berserker Marines hitting first all the time was hilarious for that one game I did.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well my friend did it anyway. Kinda lost that one though that was my fault.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Howre people feeling about possessed?

20 Possessed (Alpha Legion) w/ Changeling, near a herald for +1 str and a Daemon Prince for rerolls feels pretty good in my head.

It's a thought I've been pondering a bit myself. Might be tempting to proxy, as I doubt almost anyone has the models to just pull that off their shelves. The only thing that gives me pause is that random attack value. Investing that many points into a unit to pull off a major charge and then have each Possessed only get a single attack would be kind of an issue. There is a tremendous amount of synergy that can be stacked on Possessed though--Alpha Legion with Changeling for a -2 to hit debuff, assuming you don't want to just infiltrate them forward for a turn 1 charge. Having a good armor save means they can take advantage of terrain unlike most daemon units, Weaver of Fates could push them to a 4++, Warp Time for a double move, lots of options all round.

Sokhar wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Howre people feeling about possessed?

20 Possessed (Alpha Legion) w/ Changeling, near a herald for +1 str and a Daemon Prince for rerolls feels pretty good in my head.

It's a thought I've been pondering a bit myself. Might be tempting to proxy, as I doubt almost anyone has the models to just pull that off their shelves. The only thing that gives me pause is that random attack value. Investing that many points into a unit to pull off a major charge and then have each Possessed only get a single attack would be kind of an issue. There is a tremendous amount of synergy that can be stacked on Possessed though--Alpha Legion with Changeling for a -2 to hit debuff, assuming you don't want to just infiltrate them forward for a turn 1 charge. Having a good armor save means they can take advantage of terrain unlike most daemon units, Weaver of Fates could push them to a 4++, Warp Time for a double move, lots of options all round.

Unless I'm missing something, as they're Tzeentch Daemons, you could also cast boon on them for a potential +1 STR/attacks/toughness depending on the roll.

So, I got a friend's army list which is a tough nut to crack. Maybe you guys can help me out. He plays imperium.
So, He has Azreal to give his fire base rerolls to hit and a 4++ invul. He brings a legionaire and an ancient as well. So, his fire base gets rerolls to wound and if any model in his fire base dies, on a 4+, it shoots one last time. He then crams 3 to 4 squads of devastators, and maybe even a hellblastor squad all around Azreal to get the benefit of all those auras. He then bubbles wraps it with 3 infantry squads, 2 comissars.
This fire base tends to out shoot any firebase I have because of a 4++, all those reroll to hit, rerolls to wound, and his devastators has cherubs and signum, plus that ancient giving them a noise marine like one last shot even when they die.
Also, on a counter charge, he has multiple characters all countercharging anyone trying to go into CC with his firebase.
He also has 3 assassins (one of each kind). Vindicare will be near the firebase, the other two will deep strike in for close CC. Now we get to his assault portion.

His assault portion has Celestine and her two bodyguards with one full 10 girl squad of seraphim (got 4 melta pistols). He also has scions deep striking in with plasma, and the two close combat assassins (one is anti psykar and the other is a CC monster who needs 6s to hit). He also has a librarian with jump pack.

So, all in all, his shooting is really strong, good counter attack, wrapped in a bubble. And his assault is deep strike and can be deadly too. (Celestine goes wherever she wants to go). I have tried deep striking warp talons and waprtiming them before. I hurt his firebase, but the warp talons all then got wiped out by his counter attack. His deep strike can be deadly too. And we know Celestine is a monster in CC. So, how should I fight such a list?

So I'm looking to make some Khorne Berserkers from AoS Blood Warriors and was wondering if the starter set ones will work or would it be better to just buy the 60 dollar 10 man unit