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Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






It simply makes me lose interest in the game and go check others. As simple as that.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ah I see.
Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.
But I’ll get much more play from Deadzone and Stargrave most likely (and could even delve into the other Stargrave esque rule sets, Breach, Parsecs, whatever they’re all called)
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Danny76 wrote:
Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.


Well, I have a (...multiple >_> ) 3d printer and a growing list of Patreons and designers. "Lovely models to sit and paint etc." is not exactly something I'm in need of, as each month they send me dozens to choose from ^_^.

The interesting part of a GW game should be the GW game, I believe. After all, they sell the miniatures separately. And in this case, well, interesting as it might be... the way they have decided to go about it sours me away from ever actually trying it out.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 08:45:56


 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.

However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.

"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"

People will bitch and whinge no matter what.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in gb
Fanatic with Madcap Mushrooms







 Albertorius wrote:
Danny76 wrote:
Well GW still always get me for lovely models to sit and paint etc.


Well, I have a (...multiple >_> ) 3d printer and a growing list of Patreons and designers. "Lovely models to sit and paint etc." is not exactly something I'm in need of, as each month they send me dozens to choose from ^_^.

The interesting part of a GW game should be the GW game, I believe. After all, they sell the miniatures separately. And in this case, well, interesting as it might be... the way they have decided to go about it sours me away from ever actually trying it out.


Wait until they discover people stopped buying shelves of rulebooks that last 2 or 3 years but still buy minis...
New regiment boxes with specific rules cards and dices all in just one box that you cant buy individually. Great bundle.

   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 kodos wrote:
so you need Warhammer+ as well to get the WD rules if you started the game after the WD was released

by all this, this is not the small intro game for newcomers into the 40k universe

this is the game for veteran players who don't like the direction that 40k is going or don't like the gameplay any more.

I have to say, as a veteran player who doesn’t like the direction that 40k is going and doesn’t like the gameplay any more, kill team does appeal. I got octarius and the compendium so I could use all the minis I have.

I haven’t played a game yet though, lol. It doesn’t somehow seem worth the hassle of arranging a gaming evening to do a skirmish game. I’ve also found it annoying you don’t get enough guardsmen to make a full team or to build all the specialists in the box.

It looks like my future probably involves Titanichads, bolt action (or CoC) and not much 28mm GW stuff. And that’s probably enough.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Olthannon wrote:
The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.

However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.

"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"

People will bitch and whinge no matter what.


Sure. But probably different people.
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Flinty wrote:
I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.


Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.

Heck, I’m an ardent Necromunda fan but have never played the new versions because it requires more books to play than miniatures. This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.

So yes, it is a barrier to entry.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Leader of the Sept







Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.

Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.

Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!

Terranwing - w3;d1;l1
51st Dunedinw2;d0;l0
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Flinty wrote:
Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.

Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.


Well, I have also stopped following the new edition and reverting back to the old one, so...
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran





No one posting on this board need an entry level game nor really can remember what entry level felt like--admit it.

Now unless GW has screwed up the CAD prices are double the UK prices, which is not their usual "conversion" rate. 120 CAD for the starter set is a good deal to dip your toe into a GW product. PS5 game: 90 CAD and you still need the nonexistent PS5. That's your video game comparison there.

GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people. (I'd argue the Recruit book should have been in the Octarius box. Then again I think every latter box should include a mini rulebook...) For the 15 year old working at McDonalds who doesn't know about Dakka this set is both affordable and instructional.

Lastly, if you don't like a game or company why would you keep posting about it. Why don't you just move on to stuff you do like. Life's too short to be angry about your hobby. And remember your right to keep talking about it is other's right to call you out on it.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Chairman Aeon wrote:
GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people. (I'd argue the Recruit book should have been in the Octarius box. Then again I think every latter box should include a mini rulebook...) For the 15 year old working at McDonalds who doesn't know about Dakka this set is both affordable and instructional.


That might be true nowadays but it doesn't have to be, and it wasn't like that. The "starter set" used to be... you know. The game.

And you should probably add "...for a GW product" to that "affordable", as you can buy multiple full games for the price of that "starter".
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 Chairman Aeon wrote:

GW starter sets are about teaching you to play the game, step by step. Sure the launch boxes are great deals in comparison to later starters, but they are aimed at different people.


This basically flips the approach taken with Indomitus and Dominion though. In those cases the limited launch boxes had more minis, no board, no terrain and the full hardback rules. It was designed for existing players who wanted a bunch of minis and the new edition rules. Then the starters added in terrain and a board but fewer minis.

Kill Team is the opposite: the launch box has the board and terrain, with the starter just having the scatter terrain and minis. The only similar thing between the starters is that they both have a separate book with tutorial minis.

Honestly, Octarius is the box for a total newbie that just wants to "get in to Kill Team" - it's not just the rules, but the full set of different size terrain means you can actually play interesting games. And if you want to expand it, Chalnath and future boxes give you that.

I'd say unlike the Command edition etc. 40K starters that are aimed at entirely new players, the audience for this KT starter box is "existing 40K players that want to get into Kill Team". Hence no terrain, and not too fussed about giving you all the faction rules as you'll probably get the compendium and play the faction you already own anyway.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 Chairman Aeon wrote:
Lastly, if you don't like a game or company why would you keep posting about it. Why don't you just move on to stuff you do like. Life's too short to be angry about your hobby. And remember your right to keep talking about it is other's right to call you out on it.

It’s entirely reasonable to complain about GW stuff if you like aspects of it but not others. For example, the models and terrain are great. GW genuinely does make better toys than anyone else. It’s therefore frustrating that they don’t make particularly good rules, or make odd decisions about what goes in a box. Do I need to mention the nonsense that was Pariah, for another example?

As an aside that may be relevant, the guy who designed Titanicus (my favourite GW game for what it’s worth) was paid a salary of something like £20-22k. When he asked for a raise they refused and told him he could go and work elsewhere. He did, because he could get a job in retail paying more so there was no risk to instead having a go starting his own business instead.

There are people who are prepared to work for £22k on an industrial estate in Nottingham. But the best people can far more elsewhere, so inevitably they’ll jump ship. I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 12:36:01


 
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.


You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer



London

 Albertorius wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.


You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.

Ok this I actually know a little bit about. It isn’t true, at least in the UK, that companies are legally mandated to pay their staff as little as they conceivably can. Instead it’s well understood by most organisations that staff are a resource, essential to the company’s success, that you ought to look after. You pay them well so they don’t just go and work elsewhere. Bankers in the city of London aren’t working for £22k. I work in the charity sector and we pay our interns more than that.
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






Mandragola wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.


You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.

Ok this I actually know a little bit about. It isn’t true, at least in the UK, that companies are legally mandated to pay their staff as little as they conceivably can. Instead it’s well understood by most organisations that staff are a resource, essential to the company’s success, that you ought to look after. You pay them well so they don’t just go and work elsewhere. Bankers in the city of London aren’t working for £22k. I work in the charity sector and we pay our interns more than that.


No, and it's just as well that I didn't say that (take a look at what I was answering to, the "they want to make ALL THE MONEY" assertion). They are just mandated to maximize their revenue, and have free rein regarding how.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/23 13:17:49


 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Olthannon wrote:
The fact that there is multiple books is very irritating and I don't see why its not in one book. It's an extremely baffling thing. All I want to play any Warhammer game is a rulebook and a codex. If its a small game, then one book should cover all of it.

However I will say though that the problem would be if it was all in one book you would get people complaining about the fact it was all in one book.

"Why do I have to buy all that and spend all that money just so I can find out about X? I don't care about all the other teams yadda yadda"

People will bitch and whinge no matter what.


People will bitch and whinge because it's GW, and GW will find a way to make it unappealing. All the rules in one book? That book will be absurdly expensive. Books look reasonably priced? You get 5 pages of relevant rules per book and need to buy several of them to play the game.

I don't really care if it's one book or two books or whatever, I just think it's silly that they didn't include the Octarius book (or similar) in the starter set when it's what you want in order to play the forces in the starter set. They made an entirely new book called "Recruit Edition" that serves the same purpose as the Octarius book but doesn't have all the rules. Even if the "Recruit Edition" book had the army rules, but less scenarios and fluff it would have been a better prospect. GW are nickle and diming it, but it's more like Jacksons and Benjamins.

Someone on the previous page mentioned having small books for each team that only cost a few bucks each, that would work fine, or bundle it all in one book and that would also be fine if that book was reasonably priced. The bitching and whining comes from GW's execution, not that one idea is inherently better or worse than the other.

Personally I don't really care from my own perspective, if I like the game I'll just buy it, the problem comes when trying to get new players into the game. Both from the perspective of the creeping costs, and also from the perspective that it gets confusing what books you actually need. And this is a game that literally just came out, it should be in its simplest form at this point, but we already have the compendium that doesn't contain the DKoK and Kommando rules, and the Recruit Edition book that does contain the DKoK and Kommando rules BUT not all of them.

You pile on top of this that GW rules are really poorly written. Most GW rulebooks are a pain in the arse to read because it seems they haven't had a decent editor go through them and clean up all the redundancies, clumsy sentences/paragraphs, etc.

   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept





Northumberland

All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.

Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.

One and a half feet in the hobby


My Adeptus Mechanicus Painting Log:
# The Explorator Fleet of Labrunnia IX #

 
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






 Albertorius wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.


You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.


Sink or swim I guess It's foolish to hope for some pro-consumer legislation nowadays innit ?

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in es
Inspiring SDF-1 Bridge Officer






 Olthannon wrote:
All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.

Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.


Why would you want to let things slide? I mean, you can kick up a fuss about hobby things and things that matter. Both. No need to choose, here.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
 Albertorius wrote:
 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
I really don’t understand how it can make sense for a business as vastly wealthy as GW to pay its product designers such derisory amounts.


Because, as someone once said, they don't just want to make money; they want to make ALL of the money. The crux of capitalism really.


You could say that, being a publicly traded company, that's actually a legal mandate.


Sink or swim I guess It's foolish to hope for some pro-consumer legislation nowadays innit ?


Oh, they absolutely should be bound for that... but corpos tend to be the entities that fatten the politicians' coffers, so the incentive is pretty much to let boys be boys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 14:43:52


 
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






 Flinty wrote:
Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.

Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.


Personal experience, I was put off from getting intro Newcromunda when the very first thing they released heralded an endless stream of DLC, and so many years down the line I wouldn't know where to start and frankly can't be bothered to sort things out even though I casually followed the releases for years.

Over at Warlord Games, if I want to get into Bolt Action I buy the rule book and the appropriate army book and I'm set. There are peripherals like campaign expansions for those that fancy them, but it's never unclear how you get the actual core game.

GW does its thing to make you spend as much as possible with them, which is understandable, but does so to the exclusion of any other consideration. They make you, the customer, do a lot of work for the benefit of throwing your money at them. That's a completely backwards approach. Usually you don't want to make it harder for your customers to hand over their money. But GW, in its own charming way, does just that with peerless passion.

 Olthannon wrote:
All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.

Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.


I wanted to let things slide, but then I tried to put Circle and Circle together and all I got was Error 404 - Geometric Shape Not Found.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 15:06:17


Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
Made in fr
Lesser Daemon of Chaos






 Albertorius wrote:
 Olthannon wrote:
All of that is true, but don't treat GW as if they are the only company to do anything like that.

Just in case this is missed, I'm not condoning what GW do, I think people need to make a better job of letting some things slide and kicking up fuss about things that matter.


Why would you want to let things slide? I mean, you can kick up a fuss about hobby things and things that matter. Both. No need to choose, here.


C'mon ! You know we can only ever care about one thing at a time ! If you believe the choir, attention is a finite resource



Oh, they absolutely should be bound for that... but corpos tend to be the entities that fatten the politicians' coffers, so the incentive is pretty much to let boys be boys.


Cheers to that ! Nowadays bankers become world leaders and world leaders become consultant for investment firms

-"For the Ruinous Powers!" 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

 Flinty wrote:
Fair point. I should have said that I dont understand why it’s a barrier to entry.

Regarding Necromunda, though, that’s patently untrue. There are a lot of books, but you dont need all of them to play. It’s the same here and In 40k. If you want access to every single rule for all of the factions, then it will get pricey, but you don’t need to do that to play the game.


It took them over 2 years to get out what was in the first Necro rulebook. With numerous errors and contradictions along the way. It may be a reductive summary for brevity but it's not untrue. That release strategy was a turd.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in gb
Tunneling Trygon






Mandragola wrote:

As an aside that may be relevant, the guy who designed Titanicus (my favourite GW game for what it’s worth) was paid a salary of something like £20-22k. When he asked for a raise they refused and told him he could go and work elsewhere. He did, because he could get a job in retail paying more so there was no risk to instead having a go starting his own business instead.


To add more context here, that guy (James Hewitt) said this event happened 5-6 years ago. He recently did an AMA on reddit and was keen to point out that he's in touch with former colleagues and that pay for game designers had improved since he'd left. £20-22k is not a current figure.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.


Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.

This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.

So yes, it is a barrier to entry.


I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...

A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.

What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.

Henry R. 
   
Made in gb
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain





Cardiff

Two rulebooks + website content to play a game where you command a handful of models... and you're excusing that? OK. It's a choice I guess.

 Stormonu wrote:
For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
 
   
Made in ca
Charing Cold One Knight





I think with new Kill Teams(like Kommandos and Krieg) they should easily be able to add some data cards in the box for KT rules.

They already do it with the Warcry bands.
   
Made in de
Powerful Ushbati






callidusx3 wrote:
 JohnnyHell wrote:
 Flinty wrote:
I do t see it as a barrier to entry, it’s a barrier to completionism. To start the game you can buy the rule book amd whatever supplement you want and you can play the game.


Whatever you think, multiple people in this thread have indicated it is a barrier to entry, in that they won’t even start playing this game because of stupid decisions re: splitting rules up.

This KT edition is dead from the start for me too as the book in the box should just have been the actual rulebook.

So yes, it is a barrier to entry.


I agree with Flinty. I do not understand why people are finding so many reasons to hate on the new Kill Team. Like Bolt Action or Saga, one needs two items to play KT '21...

A. the Rulebook (separately available) and some printouts from WarCom that provide terrain rules found in the Chalnath book. And
B. the source of one's faction's rules (i.e. the Octarius book, Chalnath book or one of 3 White Dwarfs). If your faction's bespoke rules haven't seen a release yet, then one has to decide if one wants to use the Compendium as a stop-gap or just wait.

What other rules does one need? Two publications does not seem like a barrier to entry to me. It is not as convenient as one book (i.e. KT '18), I'll grant you, but it is not unduly burdensome.


What you're looking at is a trick to cut the price of a starter set without actually losing money.

By including cut down rules, GW doesn't offer the full game. If you want that, in addition to the 85€ starter set you buy the 37.50€ full rule book to get the complete game. Sure, you could just buy the rule book alone. And a box of models. And the markers and measuring tools. At which point you're paying 20€ more than the starter set costs, while not getting the second team and the scatter terrain. The reasonable and economically sound choice is to buy the starter set and rule book. So while you're being baited with an 85€ price tag, you end up paying 122.50€ instead and get a completely superfluous cut down rule book that has no reason for existing. Nothing about this is good for the customer.

It's also another entry in the newer starter sets that include cut down rules only and don't offer the full game experience. When 40k 8th ed came out, GW offered free core rules that I believe were also included in physical form in the two smaller starter sets. If memory serves, according to GW the core rules of 40k do not included terrain or army composition rules, which is of course preposterous for a tabletop wargame. Prior to the release of AoS in 2015 it was understood that if you buy a starter set, you get the full core rules of the game. It's an expectation based on decades-long practice. Since then we have seen ever more of these cut down rule books and as a customer you now have to pay close attention to what you're getting, and have to consider that a starter set doesn't actually get you properly started anymore. I'd consider that predatory as it deliberately sows confusion as to what you're buying and you as the customer are virtually forced to get your information from third parties because GW will adamantly state that incomplete rules are a valid way of playing their games even if that goes against any practical experience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/23 20:44:29


Nehekhara lives! Sort of!
Why is the rum always gone? 
   
 
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