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Thanks in advance for your answers and attempts to answer! Sorry if any of these questions have been brought up elsewhere, though I like the idea of having all the answers in one thread!

1. Does the Callidus Assassin receive a +1 attack bonus for having two close combat weapons?

2. Does the Callidus Assassin ability "A Word In Your Ear.." take place before or after enemy Infiltrators are set up?

3. Does the Callidus Assassin's Neural Shredder count as strength 8 for purposes of calculating Instant Death? Does it use the target's leadership, or toughness for purposes of calculating Instant Death?

4. When wounding with the Neural Shredder, do you use the leadership values of each individual model hit as their respective toughnesses, or do you apply the squad's leadership value (i.e. 9 instead of 8 because you have a Veteran Sergeant upgrade) and/or rules such as Rites of Battle?

5. Can the Callidus Assassin use its jetpack disengage rule on its own turn to leave combat then charge back into combat? Can the enemy charge the Callidus Assassin if it uses this rule on the opponent's turn, including the unit the Callidus Assassin disengaged from?

6. Can the Eversor Assassin fire its pistol twice and still assault, via it's "enhanced metabolism" (or w/e it's called) rule?

7. If the Eversor Assassin is in combat with allies vs enemies, and it dies, do the wounds it causes with "Bio Meltdown" count towards combat resolution?

8. Does the Eversor Assassin receive a +1 attack bonus for having two close combat weapons?
9. Does the Cullexus Assassin receive a +1 attack bonus for having two close combat weapons?

10. Does the Vindicare Assassin receive a +1 attack bonus for having two close combat weapons?

11. Does the Vindicare Assassin's target picking rule override the Tyrant Guard's rule that prevents the Hive Tyrant from being picked?

Unknown. The Neural Shredder is never defined as being one- or two-handed.  Stating one way or the other would require an assumption which can not be supported by the rules.


The Executioner Pistol has 'Pistol' listed as it's weapon type. Pistols, by their rules on page 29 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook are one-handed and can be used in conjunction with another close combat weapon.


The only weapon I see that the Culexus is equipped with is the Animus Speculum.


Although not definitive, the rules for the Exitus Rifle say that it is treated as a sniper rifle. Sniper rifles are two-handed weapons and therefore do not provide an extra +1 Attack in close combat.

 

Yes, most of these questions have been hashed over and over again numerous times. Many of them are big grey areas that are either unanswerable by the rules or played the opposite of the RAW by most players.

 

1) RAW, no. The Nueral shredder is not defined as being a single-handed weapon (it isn't defined at all). Since you cannot determine whether the Nueral Shredder is single or double-handed the Assassin cannot gain the +1A for having two single-handed weapons.

That said, looking at the models many people choose to play that the Nueral Shredder as a single-handed weapon and give the Attack bonus to her against the RAW.

 

2) The rules say after deployment but before the first turn. Infiltration deployment is still deployment, so Word in the Ear takes place after that. There are much trickier questions regarding this rule when it comes to such things as Scout moves, the Deciever's re-deployment ability and Eldrad's re-deployment ability. In many cases the answer is simply a toss-up that you'll have to randomize (i.e. dice-off) with your opponent.

 

3) The Nueral Shredder does not have a defined Strength value ( it has a Strength of 'X' ), much like a sinper rile or a poisioned weapon, so by the RAW it is unable to cause Instant Death attacks.

 

4) Template weapons don't actually hit specific models in a unit, they cause wounds and then the owning player is free to assign the wounds to whomever he chooses in the unit (within range of the template) as such the Nueral Shredder would *have* to hit the "units" Leadership value.

However, a "units" Leadership value is not defined in the rules, although most people generally play that you use the highest Ld value available.

As such, I would say that this is a true grey area in the rules that cannot absolutely be answered. But my guess would be the common interpretation/work-around would be to either use the highest Ld available in the unit or to roll seperately for models with seperate Ld values (and then force the owning player to apply those wounds to those models).

 

5) Yes, by the RAW a Callidus jumps back at the start of the Assault phase which would allow her to declare another charge (if it is her Assault phase) against any valid enemy unit (including the one she was just locked with) or the opposing unit to declare a charge (if it is her opponent's Assault phase) against any valid target (including the Assassin).

 

6) By the RAW an Eversor can never fire his pistol twice and then charge. Models that remain stationary to fire a pistol twice (and the Eversor always counts as being stationary when firing its pistol) aren't allowed to charge. The only exceptions to this rule are models that may move and fire heavy weapons and models that always count as stationary when firing rapid fire weapons. The Eversor has neither of these abilities so he cannot fire his pistol twice and then charge.

That said, this ruling is ludicrous and I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who insists on playing this situation RAW.

 

7) I don't see why those wounds wouldn't  count towards combat resolution. The wounds were certainly inflicted by units locked in combat with each other and there are all sorts of different crazy special rules that allow models to cause wounds in a variety of ways. I would say yes because the combat resolution rules simply state that you count up the total number of "wounds inflicted by each side" which is certainly broad enough to cover wounds caused by the bio-meltdown.

 

8) Yes, the Eversor gets +1 Attack for having two single-handed weapons. The Neuro-gauntlet is defined as a close combat weapon and all pistols also count as close combat weapons (pg 46 of the rulebook), so having both of those would provide the model with the +1 Attack bonus.

 

9) No, why would he? There is no indication that the model is armed with two single-handed weapons.

 

10) No, why would he? There is no indication that the model is armed with two single-handed weapons.

 

11) There is no special rule for Tyrant Guard, I think you're remembering 3rd edition. Its just the Hive Tyrant is fully part of the unit with the Tyrant Guard so cannot normally be picked out. And yes, the Vindicare's ability allows him to target the Tyrant within that unit.

 

 

Thank you both for your swift answers! and Yakface especially- I always find great respect in reading your replies, you certainly are a man of the know-how. And you probably hear this a lot, but I greatly appreciate you devoting so much time to posting in the forums with such constructive comments, on top of having to moderate everything.!

In a tournament setting, would you say I should count the Neural Shredder as a CCW (btw, someone once argued to me that the Poison Blades count as a CCW or CCWs...)? And if not, should I argue with my opponent if he chooses to count *his* Neural Shredder as a CCW? This is actually very critical in my eyes, as the amount of attacks the Callidus Assassin gets on that charge that she shows up to assassinate a given target (i.e. Necron Lord) is verrrryyy important in many games... and whether or not she gets this +1 attack is often going to be the deciding factor on whether I want to send her after an enemy IC or just harass some troops...

*edit*
@ the +1 attack questions for the other assassins; I just threw these questions out there to see if there was anything I missed in my presumptions about the other assassins' weapons; there seems to be a theme of the codex leaving certain descriptive characteristic elements out. I agree with your answers.

However, since the Eversor always counts as being stationary when firing his pistol then he did not "... remain stationary to fire twice..." which is the only thing that prevents him from charging.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/08/2007 12:17 AM
Thank you both for your swift answers! and Yakface especially- I always find great respect in reading your replies, you certainly are a man of the know-how. And you probably hear this a lot, but I greatly appreciate you devoting so much time to posting in the forums with such constructive comments, on top of having to moderate everything.!

In a tournament setting, would you say I should count the Neural Shredder as a CCW (btw, someone once argued to me that the Poison Blades count as a CCW or CCWs...)? And if not, should I argue with my opponent if he chooses to count *his* Neural Shredder as a CCW? This is actually very critical in my eyes, as the amount of attacks the Callidus Assassin gets on that charge that she shows up to assassinate a given target (i.e. Necron Lord) is verrrryyy important in many games... and whether or not she gets this +1 attack is often going to be the deciding factor on whether I want to send her after an enemy IC or just harass some troops...

*edit*
@ the +1 attack questions for the other assassins; I just threw these questions out there to see if there was anything I missed in my presumptions about the other assassins' weapons; there seems to be a theme of the codex leaving certain descriptive characteristic elements out. I agree with your answers.

You're welcome. It helps to be at work late at night with lots of time on my hands (some days).

 

As for "tournaments" I don't know what your goals are. For me, there is very little worth arguing over and ususally I try to guage what those issues will be before the game and get them over with. For the most part I tend to just play with however my opponent wants to do it, so long as we haven't already been playing it an opposite way up until that point.

When it comes to the double or single handed weapon issue, the thing you have to remember is that whole lot of weapons in codices are not defined as being either single or double-handed. A LOT of people just gloss over this issue and simply play it based on the weapon the model is holding, and really that's probably the easiest way to play it simply because of how many actual weapons in the game aren't defined.

The 'ruling' I came up with for my (and the Adepticon) FAQ was to handle the situation as I feel most people naturally play the issue:

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/07/2007 11:04 PM

4. When wounding with the Neural Shredder, do you use the leadership values of each individual model hit as their respective toughnesses, or do you apply the squad's leadership value (i.e. 9 instead of 8 because you have a Veteran Sergeant upgrade) and/or rules such as Rites of Battle?

Use the mixed toughness rules...So a SM squad led by a vet is considered toughness 8 for the shredder's strength 8...

Thanks yak, that alleviates me from feeling too guilty wanting to run her with that extra attack ... she almost doesn't seem worth it otherwise

skyth: that means I cannot remove the vet sarge himself as a casualty unless the entire squad is killed, right?

As for Rites of Battle, would that override in this scenario and give all the marines a LD of 10? I don't have a SM codex on hand, so I don't remember if Rites of Battle only applies to LD and morale checks..

I'm not quite sure why people think the neural shredder would provide an extra close combat attack. From what I understand, you get the extra attack from having two close combat weapons. Close combat weapons are anything that has rules for being used in close combat and anything definded as a "pistol". So this would include things like power fists, power weapons, witch blades, force weapons, plasma pistols, etc. I see no reason why a shooting weapon that isn't defined as a pistol (and doesn't have any specific rules stating that it can be used in hand to hand) would give an additional attack.

Now if you were to argue that she gets an extra attack due to the poison blades, you might have a better case.

Posted By Phoenix on 11/08/2007 9:01 AM
I'm not quite sure why people think the neural shredder would provide an extra close combat attack. From what I understand, you get the extra attack from having two close combat weapons. Close combat weapons are anything that has rules for being used in close combat and anything definded as a "pistol". So this would include things like power fists, power weapons, witch blades, force weapons, plasma pistols, etc. I see no reason why a shooting weapon that isn't defined as a pistol (and doesn't have any specific rules stating that it can be used in hand to hand) would give an additional attack.

Now if you were to argue that she gets an extra attack due to the poison blades, you might have a better case.

The argument is that the Callidus's Neural Shredder is held in one hand like a pistol, and fluff-wise her sole purpose is to get into close combat and be a monster, so rules as intended seem to dictate that she was suppose to receive a +1 attack. Rules as written state otherwise, or at least seem to imply otherwise, but this area is rather grey, as yakface has already pointed out.

Your understanding is wrong. Please reread page 40 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:


There is no requirement that it be a 'close combat weapon' or a 'pistol' as it was in 3rd edition. In 4th edition, literally any single-handed weapon wil provide you with an extra +1 Attack (barring special rules) regardless of what type of weapon it is.

Bolters are not pistols.
A GK Space marine has a gauntlet mounted bolter. they fire them one handed.
They have to have a special rule to allow them to use them in HtH combat 9and lose their attack for charging to get it).
I don't see why any weapon NOT defined as a pistol should be assumed to BE a pistol just because it only uses one hand.

In real life, you can use an uzi submachine gun with one hand... it is, most definitely, not a pistol.

IMO, the rules are concise on this. Weapons in your off hand that are classified as CCW or pistol get you an extra attack in HtH. A Neural Shredder is not defined as a pistol.

Look at plasma pistols or bolt pistols or las pistols...
Forget that the word "pistol" is in their name. I won't even rely on that.

Go to your codex and look at the list of weapons.
Look at the column for "type."
Cross reference the above mentioned weapons. What word do you see under EACH of them in the "type" column? You see the word "pistol."

I don't have a codex handy that has Assassins in it. What does it say under the "type" column for the Neural Shredder? My guess is that it will say "Assault 1 template" or something similar.

There you go.


Eric

And again, being a 'pistol' has nothing to do with it. As long as it is one-handed, then it provides an extra +1 Attack in close combat. It can be a Heavy, Assault or Rapid Fire weapon. It does not matter.


Somebody actually needs to read the rules then because they do NOT say what you're implying.

Can a Callidus Assassin?s poison blades target an individual model?

For example: A model with a powerfist, or does it have to target a unit?

Blackmoor, because the attack is still made in the assault phase, I see no reason why the attack, no matter which model you tried to put it on, would not be subject to the normal rules for casualty removal.

After all, she may "make an extra attack with her poisoned blades." Having a model in base to base contact is only a prerequisite for making the attack; nothing in the rules specifies that the attack is made specifically against the model in base to base contact, and nothing in the rules says that regular casualty removal rules do not apply.

I was reading a tactics article at Bell of Lost Souls and it said that you can target individual models.

That did not sound right.

Posted By MagickalMemories on 11/08/2007 9:52 AM
In real life, you can use an uzi submachine gun with one hand... it is, most definitely, not a pistol.

It is in Necromunda...

Posted By MagickalMemories on 11/08/2007 9:52 AM
IMO, the rules are concise on this. Weapons in your off hand that are classified as CCW or pistol get you an extra attack in HtH. A Neural Shredder is not defined as a pistol.

The rules are actually even more concise then that. As has been mentioned by others, it doesn't have to be a pistol or CCW... it just has to be one-handed.

Posted By Mr. Bombadidaloo on 11/08/2007 8:10 AM


skyth: that means I cannot remove the vet sarge himself as a casualty unless the entire squad is killed, right?

As for Rites of Battle, would that override in this scenario and give all the marines a LD of 10? I don't have a SM codex on hand, so I don't remember if Rites of Battle only applies to LD and morale checks..

No, the vet is a possible casaulty also...Majority toughness rules don't limit who can be taken as a casaulty.

Rites only lets you use the leadership for tests...Not a replacement for the leadership stat, so won't help with the shredder.

Posted By Ghaz on 11/08/2007 10:14 AM

Somebody actually needs to read the rules then because they do NOT say what you're implying.

You can post rule excerpts here, so if you want us to read them, then post it.  Its only a problem if you start putting up huge sections of the rules and other things that would allow people to play the game without buying the book.  So again, if you want to say that the rules say a particular thing that contradicts what we are saying, throw up a quote.  A large portion of us are not sitting next to our rule books so if you are, enlighten us.

Posted By Phoenix on 11/08/2007 2:18 PM

Posted By Ghaz on 11/08/2007 10:14 AM

Somebody actually needs to read the rules then because they do NOT say what you're implying.

You can post rule excerpts here, so if you want us to read them, then post it.  Its only a problem if you start putting up huge sections of the rules and other things that would allow people to play the game without buying the book.  So again, if you want to say that the rules say a particular thing that contradicts what we are saying, throw up a quote.  A large portion of us are not sitting next to our rule books so if you are, enlighten us.

As has been stated several times already in this thread, the rules only require that a model have two single-handed weapons to gain the +1 Attack bonus. Whether or not they are pistols, close combat weapons or anything else is irrelevant.

Here is somthing a little off topic. If your model is armed with 2 pistols. Can you then fire twice in the shooting phase (one per pistol) then charge into combat and still gain the +1A?

Posted By smart_alex on 11/08/2007 2:48 PM
Here is somthing a little off topic. If your model is armed with 2 pistols. Can you then fire twice in the shooting phase (one per pistol) then charge into combat and still gain the +1A?

Unless a monstrous creature, models can only fire one weapon.

cool, thanks.

Guess what? I quoted the rule in my post immediately before his. He didn't bother to read the rulebook, nor did he or seemingly you bother to read this thread. Nonetheless, if you are going to post on a thread debating a rule, at least have the common decency to know what you're talking about instead of giving out the wrong advice and wasting everbody's time.

Actually, the Neural Shredder has been defined as a single-handed weapon, you just have to look deep to find the reference. Old Harlequin Codex defines the Neural Shredder as a single-handed weapon. So I'd say that's a positive answer on the +1 attack for the Callidus.

Re the Neural Shredder vs a unit with mixed Leadershipon made to me when I asked the studio fellas at some US event was to treat it as a Mixed Toughness, only use the LD. Basically, take the section on page 23 "How to Wound" and replace the word Toughness with Leadership when using the Neural Shredder. As for using the Character orupgrade characters LD, nope, there's only a couple of circumstances in which you can do that (Morale test, Pinning) and this ain't one of those circumstances.

don_mondo wrote:Actually, the Neural Shredder has been defined as a single-handed weapon, you just have to look deep to find the reference. Old Harlequin Codex defines the Neural Shredder as a single-handed weapon. So I'd say that's a positive answer on the +1 attack for the Callidus.

that is... very interesting.....

It is interesting...

except that the old harlequin codex doesn't exist anymore....

I'm still on the fence about whether or not mixed toughness/leadership would apply against a neural shredder.

I don't have the rulebook on me, so be kind, but I believe in the leadership section it states that squads always use the highest leadership available. (But whether or not the sentence says "for leadership tests" would be important I guess.) Then the neural shredder says to use the target unit's leadership as it's toughness, which would be the highest leadership available right?

From page 63 of the Warhammer 40,000 3rd edition rulebook:

Models in base-to-base contact with a pistol/close combat weapon in each hand have an extra +1 Attack.

And from page 40 of the Warhammer 40,000 4th edition rulebook:

Engaged models with two single-handed weapons... have an extra +1 Attack for every turn of close combat...

In 3rd edition a Callidus would not have received an extra +1 Attack from the Neural Shredder. In 4th edition there is no clear answer.

whitedragon wrote:but I believe in the leadership section it states that squads always use the highest leadership available.

Nope.

That's one of the holes in the current ruleset that they still haven't bothered to FAQ. They mention in the Characters section that a unit accompanied by an Independant Character will use the IC's leadership if it is higher than theirs. But nowhere in the rules does it state that a unit uses the highest leadership in any other situation.

It's a fairly sensible assumption, but not a rule.