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To me it looks about the same, except silver helms got stuck in special slot, but now we get 6 special slots at 2000pts. Other than that heros' got 10 to 25pts more expensive but core troops got about the same price reduction to counter balance. Overall, its the same to me. The only question I have is whats people's thoughts and did anyone find any sick combo's with the new magic items? I didn't see the banner than does auto damage to undead anymore (sad times for building against undead!)

The HE appear to be similar to their former book. While they have gained ASF and lost Intreague at the Court, it appears that they are basically the same as last book: fragile, expensive, and rewarding for a veteran to use.

Core Builds:
2x Spearman 18-21 as one can build 6x3 (with extra) or 5x4. Either way is good for defensive spears striking first and decent CR.

Special builds:
8-12 White Lions as one doesn't need ranks due to stubborn.
6 Dragon Princes
Swordmasters - 12? 14? I'm not sure...what's you're ideas?
Shadow Warriors - ??? last on the Special list...
Chariots - very nice. However, protect and hide them until cannons are gone. Those lion chariots are pretty solid!

Now the combination of units is the tricky part...help!

When the Empire books came out, I had a laundry list of complaints, starting with the loss of fusillade, working through the nerfing of the Helblaster, down to the stupidity that is the mechanical horse, and ending with the loss of the White Wolves and my beloved cavalry hammer. But I liked some of the new things, like the changes to the flagellants, and the Helstorm, and the Arch-lector + War Altar, and the changes to the steam tank.

When the Orc & Goblin books came out, I had a few complaints. Snotlings became useless. Night goblin fanatics got toned down. Lots of things lost their 2-for-1 slot, like spear chukkas. They lost a lot of their magic items. But we got spider-riders back, and Grimgor became better and cheaper.

With the High Elf book, I really have no complaints. They lost Intrigue at Court, and good riddance. Stoic has been replaced by Valor of Ages, which means my DE have a chance to panic them, finally. They lost 2-for-1 slots, but gained extra slots in the special and rare categories, which will compensate. Their magic is better, I think. And we have a spiffy new dragon to model, and a new character class to ride him, too. And the BSB has no restrictions on other equipment, so he can take a shield, or even a great weapon. Heck, they even made the basic core infantry cheaper, gave us new chariot models with great horses, and a whole new chariot pulled by lions! After reading the army book, I think the design team have struck the right balance. I look forward to facing them, and to dusting off my old army to see how they work.

I tell a lie, I do have a complaint. For the first time in the new series of army books, they have returned to having a character's mount use up an additional hero slot. (Okay, it's a dragon; still, it doesn't happen when Karl Franz stops by the Imperial Zoo). I had hoped that if they were getting rid of useful rules, like 2-for-1, they would get rid of unuseful rules, like 'takes up an additional hero slot' or 'takes up both a hero and a rare slot' as well.

Teclis seems a bit broken especially vs lists which are vulnerable to certain big spells of the main rulebook, such as dwarfs vs pit of shades & brets vs metal 6 (or unseen lurker vs pretty much everybody). He's not Thorek-class(tm), but powergamers will rejoice including him in magic heavy lists. Otherwise the armylist seems all around decent, stuff is expensive & fragile at most places but can hit very hard if they get there. Too bad we're stuck with the medicore/bad old plastic sets for archers/spears/shelms...

Happy to hear HElves aren't the brokenfest I expected them to be. But I've been hating on the pointiest of pointy ears for a decade now, and don't figure that'll change much

And can the BSB now take whatever she wants? Huh.

- Salvage

Well, the BSB isn't totally free. If he takes a magic banner, he cannot take any other magic item. But the restrictions preventing him from taking a shield, or addl. hand weapon, or two-handed weapons, didn't make it into the army book.

Some have questioned if that is simply an editing error, but so far the consensus seems to be that they meant it.

On the other hand, in the last White Dwarf magaizine, one of the designers said that the lion chariot would get 2 S6 attacks (from the crew, armed with great axes). Apparently he forgot that a great weapon only gives +1 S when used by a mounted model. So the jury will probably stay out until the long-promised FAQ/Errata.

High Elves are broken because the first strike rule allows them to void much of thev tactical flow of thegame. Charges are now largely irrelevant for most units, so High Elf play is dumbed down.
The infantry however is greatly improved and about time too, while 15pts is a lot to pay you now get what you paid for. All three elite infantry units are worth taking.

Conversely Shadow Warriors, which were overpriced to begin with are now so laughably expensive for their S3 attack that they will be gathering dust until 8th edition.

I dont agree with the changes to Special and Rare choices. Some units could have been left 2 for 1 others moved around. The prevelance for cavalry armies shoulsd have been stopped by making infantyry attractive, not by vacating Core of mounted choices.

The magic is greatly improved, and while I dont like removing Honours, they added character to characters, the magic items were tightened up along with the spell list. High Magic is as good as its reputation now with useless or duplicate spells removed and replaced with good effective army support spells. I like High Elves and am looking forward to my first games with the new book, but not all the changes are for the best and some do spoil the game.

Comp scoring will be interesting given that comp is usually correlated with fluff. This throws a wrench in those proponents who advocate more troops and fluff as the HE are designed to minimize troop and maximize other.

Now, now... it won't affect it at all, since there's no such category as 'troop' in Fantasy. Unless you meant to say 'core', in which case the HE army has indeed just sabotaged most 'army composition' rubrics. Which I think is a good thing, given that so many core choices of so many armies are very poor, compared to the specials.

The arbitrary 40% core or whatever comp guidelines were incredibly moronic to begin with. For starters they're basically free points for Orcs and Chaos and screw with DE, fluffy Empire and Dwarf armies (with Greatsword or Hammerer bodyguards), etc.

If this is another nail in the coffin of arbitrary comp guidelines, so much the better.

Asmodai wrote:The arbitrary 40% core or whatever comp guidelines were incredibly moronic to begin with. For starters they're basically free points for Orcs and Chaos and screw with DE, fluffy Empire and Dwarf armies (with Greatsword or Hammerer bodyguards), etc.

If this is another nail in the coffin of arbitrary comp guidelines, so much the better.

QFT. Arbitrary comp was always ridiculous for either system(I have to bring 40 Necron Warriors? In 2 squads?) and just lead to substandard, standardized, and unfluffy armies for most tournaments. Oh, and decreased turnout to tournaments in my area.

With a decrease in cost of spearmen, can the high elves now make a hard MSU list?

whitedragon wrote:With a decrease in cost of spearmen, can the high elves now make a hard MSU list?

I don't think that matters as much. Spearmen are a poor choice for MSU since they rely on multiple ranks and outnumbering.

I think the ability to take tons of Swordmasters, White Lions and Phoenix Guard because of the new force selection chart is far more significant to MSU players.

Let alone taking them in units of five.

Block of spearelves in three ranks interspaced by MSY White Lion and Swordmasters for next turn flank charges.

Sorry guys, but what's MSU stand for? My limited Fantasy knowledge is rearing its ugly head, and the "Dakkcronyms" don't seem to have the answer.

Multiple Small Units.

Basically, MSU is the opposite of a horde. It's a common tactic in Fantasy armies where the core troops are expensive, on a points-per-model basis, so that taking lots of models to build up static CR means your basic, vanilla units are big point-sinks. Instead, you take many small units, often 'naked' (no command, or just a musician), and fight a battle of maneuver rather than attrition. DE, HE, and ogres are the classic armies for this style of play. If you can hit a big block in the front and the flank, and stick a US5 character/mount in the rear, not only are you getting +3 CR for flank/rear, you negate the enemy's ranks, too.

Hey guys,

I have been following this thread as well as many other threads on the new HE, both on these boards and others. My question is, of the elite units, which ones are worth taking?? I hear that White lions are the best choice due to there maneuverability through woods and there bonus protection to shooting.

I have also heard that swordsmen are probably the second choice to take and Phoenix Guard taking up the rear.

My idea would be along these lines:

Prince
Hero on foot
Mage
Mage

2x10 archers

2x14 white lions
1x14 Sword masters

Eagle and bolt throwers for points??

My aim would be 2000pts.

Anyway any advice one these elite units and unit sizes would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Chappy P!

Thanks for the info on MSU, guys.

So one more quick question regarding that - Is MSU a common or viable tactic for Chaos armies?

Hordini wrote:Thanks for the info on MSU, guys.

So one more quick question regarding that - Is MSU a common or viable tactic for Chaos armies?

It's OK with Chaos Armies. The main difficulty Chaos has with MSU is that they're relatively slow. Chaos fast cavalry is mediocre and their foot troops are M4. It's more common in my experience to see Chaos go with the 'Deathstar' approach of a Chaos Lord in a unit of Chosen Chaos Knights that can steamroller anything it comes across.

I've played one game with them so far vs. a khorne beastmen army. I purposely threw a few units out there (like a 5-strong unit of dragon princes with a hero) to see how they performed. I still haven't tried out swordmasters, phoenix guard, or lion chariots.

After playing my game, and reading a number of bat-raps on asur.org I've come to the conclusion that the army is really good at being a defensive, counter charging army. Striking first is fine & dandy right up until you're attacking toughness 4 enemies with decent saves with spearmen. The white lions were simply godly, partly because I rolled very well with them (missing only 1 out of 8 attacks in one phase), but the WS 5 with str 6 and stubborn is mean, and I think they are probably going to see the most use in competetive games of all the special choices.

high-strength, multi-attack units like dragon princes (and probably swordmasters, will have to test) work just fine so long as you don't flub your attack rolls. If you roll badly, then the superior ranks & numbers of the enemy will really mess you up. The lack of cavalry as core and the likely move towards more infantry-based armies means that HE players will need to be extremely careful to use what cav they have to flank charge the enemy.

Unlike last edition, I like archers now. Sure, they're 11pts per model, but the larger numbers of infantry will give you more time to shoot, and thinning out enemy ranks will be key. Having an eagle or reavers in there for march blocking will be big. I'm also much more likely to take a BSB now simply to ensure that those expensive infantry don't run if they do lose combat. I'm not sure that princes are needed, since a hero on foot with the 2+ save armor and a great weapon can still do a lot of damage without spending a lot of points.


Of course, this is only after playing one game myself, and reading just 1-week's worth of other peoples' experiences.


SteveW

The new elves are cool, for 80 points you can make a character immune to all attacks in close combat (only worth it on a mage) and at 3000 points you can take two mages that irrisestable force on any double other than miscast. All the elite units that can give their champ 25 points of items can now actually be given some items that are worth using, ones of note are the items that give the entire unit magic attacks and the armour of caledor (2+ save) but i would rather that on a prince. One of the best items that can be given to a white lions champ is an item that makes the unit cold blooded for a turn, pretty much guaranteeing that unit not to break.

Most of the special characters are quite solid (except eltharion on foot) When it comes to the elite infantry white lions and swordmasters are basically equal but the extra attack of the swordmasters will probably see them pushed over the edge. Pheonix guard are kinda hard to kill (4++) but arenet very good at dishing out the pain. Dragon princes are uber killy and as effective as chaos chosen knights offensivley when charging with a whole 2" more to their charge range.

ASF isnt that much of a difference, it only really helps the elite infantry if they get charged. But against hard enemys the elite infantry really needs to kill the entire front rank and probably challenge the unit as well to protect their T3 poorly armoured skins.

On the magic front The dragon mage is quite good but very easy to take down (its kinda hard to hid him) but his reckless abilty allows him to cast most if not all of his spells and will see him definately seeing play in large games against armys that dont have cannons. High magic is different but still quite effective. some of the spells can change the course of the game but shouldnt be relied apon. The new drain magic is quite cool, cast it last on your opponents magic heavy army and watch as their lvl 2's become useless and their lvl 4 gets severly weakened. it also makes remains in play spells more deadly


P.S. all of the above is my conclusions from ulthuan.net, as when i went to purchase my copy the store was out of stock

You know, that is something I have been meaning to check on, but never actually looked up- can unit champions still take up to 25 points of magic items?

The combo that some HE players are so hyped about (making a character ethereal, then negating magic weapons and such,) isn't that great since it requires two characters to be base to base with each other, costs quite a few points, doesn't work against innate magical attacks (Dryads, Daemons, Grail Knights...etc) and isn't even fullproof.

XMBX
OOO4

If B is ethereal, and M negates magic weapons in base to base, model 4 can still harm B is they have a magic weapon. My 2 cents.

Zoned

The trick isnt to have two guys next to each other like that.
It is to have one archmage with both. That way the only guys that can hurt him are ones with enate magical attacks. Then issue challenges against enemy chars (after unit champs are dead) and watch his face fall as he realises your char is unkillable in combat.

You cant attack though so using this on normal chars is a bad idea.

Well, I can see how putting that combo on an Archmage has some merit, surely there's a better way to spend 80 points.

Zoned

You know, that is something I have been meaning to check on, but never actually looked up- can unit champions still take up to 25 points of magic items?

Yeah the White lions, Swordmaster, Dragon Prince and Pheonix Guard champions can all take 25 points of magic items. All lot of people seem to overlook this but its worth noting that none of these champions can select from the magic armour due to the champion itself not being able to select mundane armour. but their are some nice enchanted items and talismans for them to make use of.

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:I have been following this thread as well as many other threads on the new HE, both on these boards and others. My question is, of the elite units, which ones are worth taking?? I hear that White lions are the best choice due to there maneuverability through woods and there bonus protection to shooting.
I have also heard that swordsmen are probably the second choice to take and Phoenix Guard taking up the rear.

All three Elite infantry are worth taking.

Swordmasters : Double the number of attacks so they are an excellent combat unit. They work as small units of approx 10 without command, or in a larger 15-20 unit.

White lions: Best as your main elite unit, with some ranks and facing the enemy squarely. Despite S6 they are not as hard hitting as Swordmasters and no more durable in close combat but they can stand in the line. Best used in ranks, unless you have plenty of woods to hide and charge in.

Phoenix Guard: Good in small units only, mediocre on the offence but an excellent tarpit with their ward save and fear. Ten is all you need, they wont budge.

Phoenix Guard: Good in small units only, mediocre on the offence but an excellent tarpit with their ward save and fear. Ten is all you need, they wont budge.

Bollucks! Go big or don't bother. A unit of 20 will see the bottom of turn 6 every game. If you take an archmage give them the banner of sorcerey and it's like manna from heaven.

Just my opinion, but I would say that the white lions are the best MSU unit for HE, since they are str6 and stubborn... Not to mention more maneuverable and resilient against shooting because of their ability to use terrain and having lion cloaks.

The sword masters look to work very well in 10-15 man squads, and are the last place I would put a character since they are so nasty offensively that they are going to be wearing big "shoot me" signs every game.

Phoenix Guard would be the best big combat res unit, since they are the most survivable but least killy, and fear only gets better with more unit strength.

Their fear also makes them an excellent place to throw a prince with the bow of the seafarer, since failed charges still allow a stand and shoot response, and they will need a str6 character to reliably cause enough wounds to win all their combats.

Back them up with 2 5 man units of white lions and you give your opponent a very tough decision when it comes to charges.

Just my thoughts...