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I love Apoc games, we had a 4000pt space wolves vs old codex Deathguard battle. Our armies played about dead even, and it was a good game. We got stuck on a few intricacies in close combat though.


Part I

My nurgle dreadnought armed with a plasma cannon and DCCW shot at his bike squad. I got lucky and had 1 full and 3 partial, which sadly netted me 2 fulls, both were wounded and no cover save was allowed. Now the bike squad consisted of 5 3+ bikes, 1 2+ bike (character) and 4 wolves (his puppies!) He wanted to take the wounds on the dogs. I said unless his codex has a special rule where the wolves can be taken as casualties he was going to have to follow the majority toughness/armor rules found in the BGB. He wasn't happy but took 2 bikes off, so I assume there is no special rule for the wolves. Is that correct?

Part II

My friend declined to take off the powerfist bike within 6" of said Nurgle dreadnought, so I charged into combat. Space wolves have the cute little countercharge rule, so he took his super character with 9 million thunderhammer attacks and moved it into base with my dreadnought, along with the rest of the squad. I considered this, and informed him that since I'm facing certain death, I'll pick on his character (so I changed my charge target (same squad, but now I was in base with the character when I wasn't before) I don't think this is an issue in this game? Anyhow I pounded that character to death and then I did in fact lose my dreadnought to 6 powerfist attacks. Is this all correct?

Sazzlefrats wrote:I love
Part I
My nurgle dreadnought armed with a plasma cannon and DCCW shot at his bike squad. I got lucky and had 1 full and 3 partial, which sadly netted me 2 fulls, both were wounded and no cover save was allowed. Now the bike squad consisted of 5 3+ bikes, 1 2+ bike (character) and 4 wolves (his puppies!) He wanted to take the wounds on the dogs. I said unless his codex has a special rule where the wolves can be taken as casualties he was going to have to follow the majority toughness/armor rules found in the BGB. He wasn't happy but took 2 bikes off, so I assume there is no special rule for the wolves. Is that correct?

Fenrisian Wolves are full models in their own right and may be taken as casualtise, but Mix Armour (not majority armor by the way) rules apply, so he couldn't remove them first.

Part II
My friend declined to take off the powerfist bike within 6" of said Nurgle dreadnought, so I charged into combat. Space wolves have the cute little countercharge rule, so he took his super character with 9 million thunderhammer attacks and moved it into base with my dreadnought, along with the rest of the squad. I considered this, and informed him that since I'm facing certain death, I'll pick on his character (so I changed my charge target (same squad, but now I was in base with the character when I wasn't before) I don't think this is an issue in this game? Anyhow I pounded that character to death and then I did in fact lose my dreadnought to 6 powerfist attacks. Is this all correct?

When charging, the first model moved must be moved to engage the closest model and must move by the shortest route possible, so in a single model unit you have no choice on which model in the target unit you are moving into base-to-base contact with. Also, if the character in question is an IC, if it wasn't in base-to-base with the dread, it can't attack at all, and if it wasn't an IC you can't single it out as a target.

Imriel

Part I
Are you saying that the wolves follow the majority toughness/armor save rule or what?

Part II
Are you suggesting that if an IC is attached to a unit, and the IC was not the charge target then the IC can not use the countercharge rule? That wasnt my question, I just wanted to know if NOW that the IC is in base can I attack it instead of the unit (I'm in base contact with the IC and the Unit, but at the start of the charge the IC wasn't there, but is after I move, but now I'm curious on both situations. Please let me know, we're both very interested to know.

Sazzlefrats, you were exactly right in both cases.

The SW do have an early version of the mixed armor rules in their codex, but the FAQ has made clear that they use the regular book one since 4th edition came out. So yes, the casualties have to come off the majority save first.

Close combat attacks are allocated when the model's initiative step comes up. So the order of operations is- your charge move, their counter-assault, then attacks in descending initiative order. Since your attacks come after the character moved into base contact, you are free to allocate said attacks against him when your initiative step rolls around.

Perfect! Thanks for the replies.

Sazzlefrats wrote:Imriel

Part I
Are you saying that the wolves follow the majority toughness/armor save rule or what?

I left the first part because I thought that the situation was different and didn't want to edit that out because I thought people might read it already in short you did it right.

the second point was making was that majority Armour Save rules don't exist, it is infact called Mixed Armour Saves, and I was pointing that out because many people get confused by that and think they are suppose to roll against the majority armour save rather then the each models own save.

Part II
Are you suggesting that if an IC is attached to a unit, and the IC was not the charge target then the IC can not use the countercharge rule? That wasnt my question, I just wanted to know if NOW that the IC is in base can I attack it instead of the unit (I'm in base contact with the IC and the Unit, but at the start of the charge the IC wasn't there, but is after I move, but now I'm curious on both situations. Please let me know, we're both very interested to know.

my part about IC not being able to attack if they are not in in Base-to-base was due to the fact you said " but now I was in base with the character when I wasn't before" seemed to be saying that you redid your assualt move to get the IC into Base-to-Base so that you could single it out, because it wasn't going to be in Base-to-base but if it wasn't in base-to-base, the IC could attack anyway.

secondlyYou said you decided to change your charge target, which seemed to mean you moved your charging dread into base-to-base with the IC rather then the closer powerfist biker (I say its closer, as you indicated that if it had been removed, you couldn't have charged), this is against the rules as you "Start the charge by moving a single model from the charging unit. The model selected must be the one which can reach the enemy by using the least amount of movement. Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being charged, using the shortest possible route(37, BGB)."

If you just meant that you allocated your attacks against the IC the yes you were correct, though the wording seems odd to me at least.

Thanks Imriel, you are right my wording could have been better, I appreciate the confirmation on the combat question.