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Breaking this out from the Takktika thread because it's a very good topic, but I didn't want it in the takktica thread.

Orlanth wrote:

Toreador wrote:Orlanth, I couldn't disagree with you more. There are always, always going to be some better choices than others. It's just the way it works. There are certain things you can cost very high, and they would still be worth it.

True enough, I cannot expect perfection, but I can expect some form of balance. This codex has none.

Toreador wrote:As a whole the new Ork codex is a relatively decent, balanced list. But what I don't get is all the vitriol thrown at what isn't even released yet. We don't have a clue how close to finished this was, or how complete.

All my comments are based on the leaked codex. Why are my comments invalid because the codex is not confirmed, HOW ABOUT THE WHOLE THREAD, in fact if in your opinion the codex is beyond comment why are you even here?

Toreador wrote:But it looks like it is mostly a success. There are quite a few different armies you can make from the list, and styles. All mech, horde, small elite, and so far most look rather viable, but not so overpowering. But again, until the book is released and we have played with it awhile, we shouldn't make any firm judgements.

Again both my points. First the "phew I dont have to scrap my whole army" being the definition of success. In fact it only proves failure. As for not making judgements - isnt everyone? Are comments only valid if they like the Codex?

Toreador wrote:I am sure quite a few of the new model boxes are going to sell. The box is for the people that already have orks. It's the new stuff. As the cycle goes and they get all the plastics done the army box will get released. It's not exactly a killer to not have it out right away.

Yes some people will buy it, some people buy cocaine, some people buy fast cars that youn can never drive to their potential on the open road without commiting a serious traffic offense. Doesnt mean they are good deals.
Do you actually support the idea of IIRC 22 plastic miniatures, a vehicle and two metal ones for £100. That is ridiculous even by GW pricing standards.

Toreador wrote:The only things I really find useless in the dex are flash gitz, meganobz, and burna boyz.

Gretchen are useless too, they make Pariahs and heavy support krootox look good, and compared to the boyz mob its a joke. Nobz in general are going to be so outmoded by lootas and now the only viable way of getting a burna model in your army is with mek or kommandos. Those lovely characterful models that really spell out orkiness - largely sidelined.

Toreador wrote:I am also going to have to say that I am liking the ardboyz.......Footslogging slugga boyz are still quite viable....

Like I said, they got a unit right from time to time, and our low expectations of GW design skills turn that into a major victory.

Pariah Press wrote:I fail to see how you could conflate my statement disagreeing that a twelve year old could have written the Ork Codex with "best codex evar." Please, take your prepared rant about "PP" and GW's business practices to another thread, as this is the thread for "Ork Takktics."

Its all part of the big picture. The very principles of what makes a successful codex has been skewed by players low expectations. Comparisons to other systems are relevant.

Pariah Press wrote:As far as the substance of your rant, that nearly every unit in the new codex is worthless, I disagree. There are so many good HQ and Fast Attack options that I can't fit them into a force org chart, and quite enough other options to keep my Ork army looking quite diverse, without compromising much on effectiveness.

So if you like the codex its an 'opinion', but if you dont its a 'rant'. I see.

IN GENERAL.

Sorry people are failing to see the big picture because they are so used to fearing seeing an army wrecked as a playable force that they dont see how a codex can suck and still remain playable.

They got a Troops unit right (though fairly bland with Nob options), they got the other one horribly wrong. Oh how impressive. 50% hit rate of getting units right, in TROOPS.

Look to elites. Lootas interesting, lets call that a tick. Kommandoes also. Meganobz, Burnas and Nobz get an X. They got 40% 'right' in Elites and that is just on internal balance.

I ignored Tankbustas completely, the rules for them are so mind bogglingly stupid I dont even have to bother comparing them with anything else. Honestly I have thought for a long while whether this whole leak is a hoax, because I cannot see how Glory Hogs could possibly get into print. But then its GW studio, so all bets are off; sometimes I wonder if their design team have enough smarts to drool.

Then Fast Attack and Heavy Support, ok admittedly you have some good stuff here, but the FA and HS is jammed full of decent options at the same time that other slots are vacant of real choice, frustrating really. Even so there are some lemons. Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Thats the real kicker, all orks are the same. No Goffs, No Evil Suns, no this, no that. At least in the Eldar codex they gave a nod to the various craftworlds, bikes and rangers become troops, wraithguard can become troops too so if you want fluffy craftworld army you can actually do it, even Iyanden at a pinch.
But not so orks, the most varied race of all. The only real nod to a change is the inclusion of a Kult of Stomp with Dreads as troops.

Furthermore not only are orks the same, each ork is the same. What are nobz now but uniformed klaw carriers. Sure they had klaws before, but at least they had variety through the armoury. GW might as well produce one model and be done with it.
All the character bits = bosspole. Great. All the looted vehicles = one looted wagon stat. I like that battlewagons can be tooled up to be almost identical to a Russ but that is it for content.

When it comes to character we knew there would be some sacrifices in the dumbing down and stripping of armoury sections, but they did this without any of the compensations giving even lip service to variety and robbed the orks of any true versatility. Sure there are some nice builds but they are as packaged as the rank and file troops ever were. Marines, let alone Guard are less uniform than new orks. Ironic really.

When it comes to getting things right with this codex they score less than 50% in internal consistency, they do get some things right, but they got more wrong than right. I havent put a pass mark to the characterisation as its too intangible to judge, yet you might read that I am not impressed. Even so 50% is not an A grade, more like a D.

Codex Orks : Grade D

FWIW, I don't see your posts as a "rant", your opinion on the new Ork dex is as valid as my own, even if we disagree.

I find it amazing you're complaining about "Balance" in the codex. This is GW, every codex I've seen from them, including the 3rd Ed ones always have units being much more obvious choices than others. So while you may have a point about low expectations on our part, the point is that while some choices stand out, nearly everything has at least some use. Not in competitive lists where you have to worry about Nidzilla, Mech Eldar, Necrons, Mech Tau, and SAFH Marines, but in normal games where people aren't taking 100% optimal lists. Not every game is a GT. Go through the Elites section in my review. Most of them have the "Poor" rating, but at the end I point out ways that the unit can be used in some capacity in friendly games.

Now what I vehemently disagree with here is the idea that "all Orks are the same". If anything that was a major problem in the old dex, but not so in this one. Seriously. You want Klanz? You've pretty much got them available in the same fashion as the Eldar dex, if not more so.

Bad Moonz: Ard Boyz as Troops, Mega Nobz as Troops with Warboss selections. 3 Battlewagons or more possible in the list. Flash Gitz can be taken with BW transports for MegaNobz. You've got a special character for the Gitz too, which may not be "good" but boy does it add character.

Deathskullz: Lootas can be taken in decent amounts in Elites, heavy battlewagons can represent looted vehicles very well. Some Boyz running around under some Big Mek HQ's also is pretty fluffy.

Blood Axes: Kommandos can be taken in decent amounts, and you've got your own special character there that's very competitive. Again Battlewagons make for great stand ins for "bought" Imperial tanks that have been orkified.

Evil Sunz: Bikes as Troops with Wazdakka, or Nob Bikes as Troops with a Warboss selection (two bosses on bikes gets you two mobz of biker nobz to fill the FOC requirements). Bikes and or Deth Koptas as fast, or storm boyz, Trukk Mounted Boyz in troops.

Kult of Speed: Trukk Mounted Boyz as troops. Most units can take a transport or can ride in battlewagons. If you want an all mounted or all speedy list it's certainly available to you.

Snakebites: Not a lot here, so you've got at least one point. Counting Boarboyz as Bikes works. Mass of Shootas can count as Huntas, while being more effective than before. Sluggas will have to do as Madboyz, and conversions can showcase the army. Grot Mobz could be used to represent squig herds if you want.

Goffs: Take lots of Storm Boyz, Zaagstrukk is an epitome of a Goff Storm Boy Nob. Nobz or MegaNobz as troops with a Boss selection, mass Boyz is also an option. Dread as troops with a Mek as second HQ and lots of Kanz or 3 Dreads in Heavy. If you want a "STOMPY" list, it's certainly available.


On the matter of "Success"
One of the reasons people are calling the dex a "success" is because of a few reasons:

1.) You can make a highly competitive force from it.
2.) That highly competitive force is completely different than any other list available in the game (Shooty Horde Boyz).
3.) You can still make decent armies with a wide variety of builds. They might not all be super competitive like Nidzilla or Mech Eldar, but they're decent lists that can stand up for themselves a whole lot better than lists from the old Ork dex could!

Seriously, I put the new Ork dex on the level with the Marine dex in terms of what you can make out of it in terms of variety. The competitiveness is there, in a number of forms, and there a number of "mid tier" style builds that are fun, themed, and still somewhat effective on the tabletop.

If the leak is correct, I have to conclude that it's a failure as well.

It's not about some choices being better than others, it's about many choices being so obviously hideously bad/unplayable.

Yes, taking the optimal builds, this codex is more competative with other codexes than the old one was.

No, it isn't more fun. No, it isn't more characterful.

I want a codex where I can play just about any unit. Maybe they won't be the mathematically best unit, but they won't hamper my chances of winning if used wisely. The old Kult of Speed did this. I placed in the top-ten in the adepticon gladiator last year with a Kult of Speed army that used most of the possible units. Bikers, Trukkers, buggies, Ard-boyz, skarboyz, stormboyz, dethkopta, battlewagon, gunwagon, looted tank, warboss, big mek...

The new codex isn't like that. If you take grots instead of boyz, you're hurting yourself. If you take warbikers instead of stormboyz, you're hurting yourself. They used to both have a place. Maybe they weren't the most cost-effective unit, but they didn't kill you.

It's also a failure based on what they took away from us. The two big ones:

1) They took away looting tanks. It's not like they were unbalanced. We paid the same price for a tank that got a lowered BS and a chance of acting unpredictably. But, because they don't want codexes to have to reference external material, they were taken away and replaced with the stupidest tank concept I've ever seen. AV11 looted wagons with a half-range battlecannon. Because all our opponents won't realize that it's both easy to kill and very dangerous. And, on top of that, it still misfunctions. Ok, so they wanted the codexes to all stand alone. At least give us a real alternative to the lost looted tanks. Something with range and armour for our ordnance. Orks aren't stupid and long established fluff has shown that they know the value of hitting someone from range.

2) They took away the rules that made small squads viable: Warbikers worked because they were fearless. Sure, new ones have better saves. But, lose one, and you've got a good chance of running. That's a lot of points to risk. And the bosspole costs you another. Tankbustas, burnas, etc. worked as small squads because when they ran, they could mob up with the big squads and stay in the fight.

There were numerous smaller take-aways (being able to strike at I4 on the charge, zzap guns, burnas in squads) that are annoying, but that can be worked around. But the two above are unforgivable in my opinion. They are why the codex fails. The "I love to convert and loot stuff" player loses out because of the loss of their tanks, and the removal of small squad viablility is why so many of the choices just appear so unappealing. I'm not spending 40 points/model on 4 meganobs just to watch them run when they take a lascannon hit.

Wouldn't it be more prudent to wait until the actual codex is out and people have a better grasp of its effectiveness in the real world?

Arguing fluff, style, and other points is warranted, but playability comments without even a real codex are a bit premature.

First off, at least from what people are saying from the Baltimore GT, the leak is the new dex.

Second off, I don't agree with what you're saying at all. The other units are very much the epitome of "Maybe they won't be the mathematically best unit, but they won't hamper my chances of winning if used wisely."

Tankbustas and Burna Boyz have their weaknesses covered by their combo with a Battlewagon. No, they're not the greatest, but they're still decent.

Bikes and Nobz have LD Issues. If you're only taking one of a unit, then throw a Warboss in there with em. That mitigates the LD issue. In terms of Bikes vs. Storm Boyz, you get about half the number of Bikes as you would storm boyz for the same amount of points. With the Bosspole and their 4+ save, they're not too terrible in terms of sticking around.

You can run around with a lot of different choices in the new Dex and still make an effective themed list. Only Grots and Looted Wagons really stand out as the true "terrible" units that have almost no uses. Dreads are still pretty poor compared to Kanz, but now that you can take one as troops with a Mek in the army, they're decent.

The looted tank issue is such a non-starter. Why would you ever count them as Looted Wagons when you could count them as Killkannon Battlewagons that occupy the same FOC slot? Ok, it's S7 and only 24" but it's enough to get your job done (throwing AP3 pie plates) and they're resilient and they don't break down.

As far as small squads, if you took small squads in the old Dex, they generally got killed at the first time someone sneezed at them. It's not like they stuck around at all either having about the same LD problems as now, except Bikes. That's the only thing I really see being much "worse" off than they were in terms of LD, but with careful use they should work out alright.

What I look at in the new list is I see a highly competitive army (way more than before, and stuff that can stick it to the big boy lists in the game) and I see options that are fun but balanced and can be used in friendly games to decent effect if used properly.

1. What orks needed were doctrines/traits equivalent, special character armies are not really a good way of adding versatility. Special characters have a cheese edge and are not often welcome in games. Some tourneys dont allow them, and neither do some gaming groups.

Eldar could develop their diversity in the list itself. The only generic changes for the orks were some '0-1' choice changes rather than whole swap overs except through special characters. There was no proper work around within a generic list.

2. "Tankbustas and Burna Boyz have their weaknesses covered by their combo with a Battlewagon. No, they're not the greatest, but they're still decent."

Having burnaboyz in burna only squads doesnt work or make sense massed flamers are also very clumsy to game with. It was better when burnas were split up everywhere with some ordinary orks even in the urna squads themselves.

As for Tankbustas, the most hamfisted rules design I have ever seen from GW, and thats saying something. I can see what they were trying to do, prevent tankbustas from being used as just marine killers, but there were other ways of handling that.

3. Bosspoles. All the varied ork add ons condensed into that one item. Plenty of people like orks and want to play them, many still do. They like characterful characters time and again, and what kept orks alive even when they had a poor codex and nothing new for year upon year was the costomisation and character. Now this has been pissed away in a fest of dumbing down unit options.
Furthermore, bosspoles on small units. Warbikes were mentioned. So you want to take a wound on a warbike - something reasonably difficult to kill just to reroll your leadership; and thats the only method. Sloppy.

Furthermore, how do bosspoles work, do you reroll an the leadership of the orks minus the guy you just killed, or before. Also does he have an armour save. I can imagine Q&A needed for every codex, but these are cripplingly obvious the very first time anyone uses a bosspole in any battle. Not only has this codex not been written well, it hasnt really been playtested - though either are unusual for GW.

4. Q&A from hell needed. Linking to what I just wrote Orks get a crap codex factor by the sheer volume of badly written rules asnd massive grey areas. Peronally I discount the slight slip of wording thsat causes confusion for arming boyz mobs. However bosspoles, glory hog (I hope) grabbin klaws, zzap guns and many more have huge glaring hole in the way the codex is written play with any unit including them will likely be randomised on a 4+ your way/my way.
Sucky sucky rules design.

5. "The looted tank issue is such a non-starter." However orks really did need looted stuff, they didnt need the boomgun on a light tank, but they do need the earthshaker.

6. All the missed opportunities. Remember this is the long awaited ork codex, the one they promised to get right. Many weapons and options themselves didnt make sense and were not fixed. Kannon for example, they should have steered it away from being a missile launcher copy and made it something better. At the very least made it the equivalent to a blast krak launcher if theycoukld think of nothing else. I could have gone with that. The miniature is always so much more promising than the gun actually is. And no - most ork guns do have the firwepower they look like they should get.

thats the Phil Kelly treatment: Codexes with 3-4 must have choices and powerful special characters.

Each codex he does has powerful choices that make others in the same category obsolete despite being decent in regular games.

Come now, guys, be fair.

HQ: Spoiled for competitive choices. The Ork HQ is an incredible slot. Between the psykers, the Big Meks and the Warbosses, you don't have a single bad option, and that isn't counting the special characters.

Troops: Ok, gretchin bite. They always did. That's kind of their point. The new choice is footslogga mob vs. trukk mob, and what a choice it is. These are 2 troop choices competitive not only with each other, but with the rest of the slots as well. No Necron Warrior mandatory suckage for these troops, Ork troops are a legit unit, and you've got several ways to go about it. Turn 2 charge from the trukk boys with the game's best transport, at the cost of losing your sweet fearless rule. Shootas vs. sluggas is a no brainer for footsloggas, but what about a unit that you expect to spend locked in CC? Should orks on a trukk get that extra attack, expecting to spend the game locked up and figuring the klaw attack is worth losing the pistol shots, or should they stick with the dakka?

Elites: Nobody believes me about the Tankbustas, but halfway decent play beats Glory Hogs, and what you are left with is orks with rokki-...Oh, NM, I"ve said this already. Tankbustas are fine. Lootas are fine. Kommandos are fine (because infiltrating scoring units had to do anything when?), love the Snikrot chap. Nobs and Meganobs are still point sinks, the nine million point unit gag. Nothing new there, more effective now because of Trukk and Painboss availability, and everyone being able to have PKs. I don't even understand the argument against burna boys. Orks that cost more and have better weapons.

Fast Attack: The fast attack slot is simply awesome. I don't think anyone is even debating this. You've got your scoring units, fast moving LOS blocking vehicles, fast moving powerklaws, wave 1 of your green rush, whatever you want.

Heavy Support: Orks have lost indirect fire. That's a nerf. The battlewagon is an excellent tank though. The artillery has got a little better. You've got choices among what kinds of battlewagons (several good choices here, tank or tranpsport...or both, rolla/claw thing, lotsa orky choices), there's even 2 kinds of walkers. Kans are hot. Good guns, good BS, vehicle squadrons that fix immobilized. Flash gits aren't any good, you've got me there.

On top of all this you've got the unit add on characters, who are what Phoenix Lords would give their pointy hats to be. The orky vehicle upgrades are the envy of every other vehicle bearing race. All of the units are cheaper than they ought to be. The army is, by and large, untankshockable. Don't forget about the Waaargh, where the entire army changes its nature for a round. There are more tournament calibre lists in this codex than any other I've ever seen, with the possible exception of old chaos.

Orlanth wrote:

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote: Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Just proof that you have no idea what you're talking about...

Proof of what? The actual orks are incredibly cookie cutter now, how many viable builds from a nob, answer 2:klaw, with or without bosspole. From all the myriad characterful variations of the old dex.......
Lets take this to the other thread.

As requested.

I was just pointing out that you said that 'there are no options for swapping things around to get of the fast stuff as troops' Which is patently untrue. You can get Bikers, Nobs, and Dreads as troops also.

Shouldn't you Ork players just be happy you're are getting a codex?

*ducks*

:p

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Ozymandias wrote:Shouldn't you Ork players just be happy you're are getting a codex?

*ducks*

:p

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Nah, we're just happy that Phil Kelly wrote it instead of Jervis.

Take that, Dark Angels Boy!

touche, VB, touche.

Ok, you all can go back to fighting now...

Ozymandias, King of Kings

40kenthusiast wrote:HQ: Spoiled for competitive choices. The Ork HQ is an incredible slot. Between the psykers, the Big Meks and the Warbosses, you don't have a single bad option, and that isn't counting the special characters.

This is true.

Troops: Ok, gretchin bite. They always did.

This, however, is not true. Most ork players swore by a unit of grots. Yes, their statline sucked. But, their special rules didn't. They made the boyz move through terrain faster, and, more importantly, provided a sweet cover save for everyone, in addition to being able to tie something up, throw out a few powerklaw attacks, or nail a tank with a rokkit, because the slaver had options.
Don't believe me? Ask SpikyDavid or Dakari-Mane, who built the lone ork list to place in the UK GTs the last few years. There's a gretchin unit in that list...

New grots lost the ability for the slaver to add value to the unit, lost the special rules, compete against cheaper boyz, and didn't get a price cut themselves (and, actually cost more than before because you have to buy more mandatory slavers).

Elites: Nobody believes me about the Tankbustas, but halfway decent play beats Glory Hogs, and what you are left with is orks with rokki-...

Ok, let's assume you're right. What you're left with is orks with rokkits, which don't have the best range in the world, essentially no armour, and no better chance of surviving than the 6-point boyz. So, you're basically helping your opponent with his target selection.

Lootas are ok, mostly because they can outrange a lot of return fire, especially heavy bolters. When they can't... I played a test game with a large squad of lootas, in 4+ cover, and, losing first turn, they got nailed by a dark reaper squad, cut below half-strength, and spent the rest of the game doing very little, without sufficient numbers to obtain a quality rate of fire. At least they didn't run.

If lootas didn't have that 48" range, they'd be a much more marginal choice, as they'd get whittled down in a hurry. Which is what happens when you have orks costing 2.5 times what a basic boy does, and no ablative wounds in the squads.

Kommandos are fine (because infiltrating scoring units had to do anything when?), love the Snikrot chap.

Seconded, Kommandos, especially Snikrot, are very nice.

Nobs and Meganobs are still point sinks, the nine million point unit gag. Nothing new there, more effective now because of Trukk and Painboss availability, and everyone being able to have PKs. I don't even understand the argument against burna boys. Orks that cost more and have better weapons.

Orks that cost more, with better weapons, and no ablative wounds means handing victory points to smart opponents who pass target priority tests.

Fast Attack: The fast attack slot is simply awesome. I don't think anyone is even debating this. You've got your scoring units, fast moving LOS blocking vehicles, fast moving powerklaws, wave 1 of your green rush, whatever you want.

I used to take buggies as troops in my KoS. With only 3 FA slots, I don't see myself finding the space for them. Stormboyz are too good, and I'd rather a dethkopta than a buggy, because it's a lot more survivable, carries the same weapon options, and has the option to tie up enemies in assault. Bikers, without fearlessness, are simply asking to fail Ld tests.

The battlewagon is an excellent tank though.

The battlewagon is an ok entry. It has a lot of options, and it gets pricy fast. But it's nothing like what we lost.

Let's look:

Looted Leman battle wagon equivalent: You've got the 'ard case, the killkannon. You're already more expensive than the russ, you've got about a quarter the range on you main gun, which lost the ability to instant-kill MEQ characters. You also lost the hull gun.

Looted Demolisher equivalent: Pretty much the options above, except now you lost S and AP instead of range on your gun, and a bit of armour to boot. And you're still more expensive. But, that's ok, cause your burna boyz can ride inside it to make them worthwhile.

Let's compare it to existing battlewagon configurations:

The Doomsday pattern: (3x TL Big shoota, 5x bolt-on big shoota, KoS Forcefield)(My adepticon list ran one of these, with great success): Well, can't get as many 'defensive' guns. Can't avoid open-topped without limiting the transported squad's firing. You get +1 AV on the front though.

Tank-hunter wagon (zzap gun, 2x TL rokkit, armour top): So, you get the +1AV, and save 5 points. But, you lose the Twin-linking on the rokkits, and your zzap gun is a weak POS instead of a tank-hunting powerhouse. This is as much about the changes to the zzap gun as the battlewagon though.

The only reason battlewagons aren't complete failures is because there are some nice new tricks (The rolla, Wreckin Ball, and Grabbin Claw all have potential), and because the AV14 might help get a lot of boyz into combat. So, as a transport, it's nice. As a Main Battle Tank, however, it is the fail.

The artillery has got a little better.

Kannons got better. Zzap guns got incredibly shafted, lobbas are about what they were before.

Kans do look nice, I'll admit that.

On top of all this you've got the unit add on characters, who are what Phoenix Lords would give their pointy hats to be.

Credit where credit is due - yes, these are very nice too.

The orky vehicle upgrades are the envy of every other vehicle bearing race.

The eldar laugh at your joke. Red paint used to be a marginal choice on our already-fast vehicles. On a trukk, for example,
you paid 10% of the cost of the vehicle for a 8% speed boost. Red paint went up in price. Grot riggers used to be a bargain too. It's probably more fairly priced now, but lost utility as you check after the movement phase now, instead of at the beginning of the turn. Between more than doubling in cost and losing the turn, it's going to be a lot less automatic. I do like what they did with the planks and claws and stuff, but I've a feeling that it's just going to put a bigger target on already-weak ork vehicles.

All of the units are cheaper than they ought to be. The army is, by and large, untankshockable. Don't forget about the Waaargh, where the entire army changes its nature for a round. There are more tournament calibre lists in this codex than any other I've ever seen, with the possible exception of old chaos.

I disagree. I think there are some strong tournament lists in the codex, but I think that it's going to end up being boyz, boyz and stormboyz, with some lootas, or maybe a battlewagon rush. Small mobs are too unreliable, and that hurts the viability of trukks. I've played some games with the new rules, and too often you only get a couple of boyz engaged, and lose that first round, and without a mob there to back you up, you end up running, or worse. The alternative, however, is to let your opponent shoot you and then assault you. And there are some glaring weaknesses - like AV14 vehicles - that I'm not sure how the boyz are suposed to overcome.

And you mistake me also. I am not making any final judgments until the codex is on the shelves. This may be the final version, or might not. If you are going to tear apart the leaked one, then those are the observations I have made about it. How it all works out is to be seen.

22 plastic miniatures, a vehicle and two metal for £100 is actually £2 cheaper than if you bought those separately. So in that sense, yes, it is by the very definition a "deal". Is it expensive? Yes. Is it worth it? Depends on who you are. I most likely will be picking it up. I will be eventually picking up everything in the box, so why not just buy it in one go? Like everything in this hobby. It is either worth it to you, or it is not.

Contents of the box.
ORK WARBIKER MOB - £20.00
ORK TRUKK - £18.00
ORK BOYZ - £12.00
ORK LOOTAS/BURNA BOYZ - £12.00
ORK BIG MEK WITH SHOKK ATTACK GUN - £15.00
ORK TANKBUSTAS - £15.00 (7 fig. box)
ORK WEIRDBOY - £10.00 (1 fig. blister)

The spearhead and army box are all plastic and the better boxes for most players.

The codex does have some balance. At the moment it seems balanced against other codexes (but until enough play we don't know for sure). If you mean internal balance, well not everything is always competitive

As has been stated by many. Grots were never all that good, not much of a change there. They are tending to take away most "special" rules and fitting everything in to the normal special rules. Now how would you fix grots? 2pts would seem to make them too cheap. Giving the cover save is outside of the normal rules, and really seems to be tacked on to give them worth. So how would we balance them? I am serious, what ideas do people have?

What really is the definition of a successful codex? I would say that it promotes the flavor of the army, promotes multiple builds and is competitive with other armies out. I really don't define it other ways. To me it is a success then. Very few games have I ever played that every unit was always viable in every game.

Grots have never ever been a big part of the army in my opinion, so saying that they are a failure, and that makes a 50% hit rate in troops really skews the statics. I wouldn't say they are totally worthless. They are still what they always were, a meat shield. In front of boyz mobz they make people take priority checks, and can keep assault troops from assaulting your boyz. They give you a lot of wounds and help outnumbering. Now that they stay around more makes them a little more effective. The BS, wounds and scoring status means they can't be ignored, but they still will struggle because they are not a main line tough ork unit and don't have the ability to be any better in any form of combat. I would say they are really a good useful unit, but in the context of the ork codex they have a hard time being competitive against other choices. They may make a nice , cheap screen for tankbustas and lootas.

Tankbustas are really quite good now, get more shots for the same points cost I used to buy them at, and have a special rules that sometimes can get in the way. They are needed though because they wield the most reliable high str low ap weapon the orks have. They are the only things really useful against both MCs and Armour 14. The only issue I have had with them in games so far is survivability. Lootas and tankbustas are priority one targets.

Nobz are useful, especially on bikes. They are the hardest CC unit orks can field, and possibly as a unit, in the game. How many other units can be tricked out to get 5 attacks at WS 5, Str 5 on the charge, along with power klaws, feel no pain and 5+ inv saves? You can either put them in a trukk, battlewagon or on bikes... allowing them to get into combat fast. Give them a bosspole and the warboss and there are few times they will ever run away (and a good chance they will never take a wound from it). So much better than meganobz.. and with a warboss they become TROOPS!

Still undecided about meganobz. Raising the cost of heavy weapons and power weapons in army lists have an end result of making 2+ armour much much better, but I still have problems with them being slow and purposeful. If they had the option of a painboy or something, I could see using them... maybe.

Burna boyz. Not a bad unit, just bad when compared to what else is in this slot. Put them in a looted wagon and their usefulness goes up. Useful against hordes, but the problem is they compete with lootas for the same slot, and cost. Without lootas I think more people would actually think about these guys. A unit with all powerweapons? Used right they could be very, very nasty.

The real problem is that there are really too many units that are "needed" in the new dex, so slot competition is fierce. Certain units will win out in those slots because of that. Doesn't matter how good something else is. It's not exactly because the list isn't balanced.

HQ, Elites, FA and HS are jammed full of options. Troops are not, but what list has tons of troop options? There are also ways to add other units to troops. I really don't see this as making orks less fluffy.... field three meks, you get three dreads as toops, can take three more or up to 9 as HS. Isn't that pretty much what you wanted?

Variety that no one takes, isn't exactly variety. The only thing I don't have now that I used to take was kustom jobs, and gobs, but gobs were just bosspoles anyway.

Looted wagons and battlewagons have all kinds of choices and builds. Quite a bit of variety there.

Orks, to me are a lot more versatile than in the past. I haven't fielded the same army list twice so far, and have had fun every time. I can't say that about the old list. I had to make it as efficient as I could just to have a chance of winning. Now I have a lot of choices. That to me is a success.

I'm not currently an ork player, but I'm green-curious, so I feel much better about this codex than I did the old one.

First, while we all wish there were rules for clans (or legions, craftworlds, etc.) the philosophy from the design team is to eliminate them whenever possible. To their credit, as voodooboyz pointed out, they've replaced them by rearranging many options, and allowing thematic and interesting armies to be built. Are they incredibly different? Nope. Will every Ork army look the same? Ourside of high level play, not by a long shot.

Second, I'm concerned about orky morale, which seems to be the major concern for all of the small-ish squads. I see three possiblities for this. a) the morale is as crippling as predicted, and nobody drops ork mobs under 15 boyz. b) the army ends up working anyway, somehow, or c) the ultimate X-factor, 5th edition, might change the way shooting and/or morale work out. As an IG player, I can assure you that paying 120 points for 6 T3 models might sound stupid, but it often isn't, these things sometimes end up working out.

Finally, to all the folks telling us not to form judgements until the codex has been out and played with, I appreciate your concern, but I can assure you that my current judgement will change. I can't speak for the rest of the posters in these and the other threads, but for anybody with or building an Ork army, these sorts of discussions are actually very helpful, since the info we have, unreliable though it may be (and I doubt it is), that info is still better than building based on the old book.

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote: Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Just proof that you have no idea what you're talking about...

Proof of what? The actual orks are incredibly cookie cutter now, how many viable builds from a nob, answer 2:klaw, with or without bosspole. From all the myriad characterful variations of the old dex.......
Lets take this to the other thread.

As requested.

I was just pointing out that you said that 'there are no options for swapping things around to get of the fast stuff as troops' Which is patently untrue. You can get Bikers, Nobs, and Dreads as troops also.

That takes a special character, which is not alweays welcome. what orks needed was a form of clan traits. The other swap arounds are 0-1, not enough for a full build.

I think we should all wait until the thing actually comes out.

Orlanth wrote:

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote:

skyth wrote:

Orlanth wrote: Unlike SM there are no options for swapping things around to get some of the fast stuff as troops. Options are for marines, and don't say this is because of the new standardisation, DA can swap over the troops for variety, but all orks have the same build.

Just proof that you have no idea what you're talking about...

Proof of what? The actual orks are incredibly cookie cutter now, how many viable builds from a nob, answer 2:klaw, with or without bosspole. From all the myriad characterful variations of the old dex.......
Lets take this to the other thread.

As requested.

I was just pointing out that you said that 'there are no options for swapping things around to get of the fast stuff as troops' Which is patently untrue. You can get Bikers, Nobs, and Dreads as troops also.

That takes a special character, which is not alweays welcome. what orks needed was a form of clan traits. The other swap arounds are 0-1, not enough for a full build.

So do the DA which is what you used for an example of what they should be like...

All I know about this new codex is the fact that one of my friends who has been a long time Ork player from 1st edition on is having a blast with this new version. Then again, he's really good at running Orks and has never lost a tournament game, beating people who have taken 2nd place at GT's, using them, so he knows how to get the most out of the greenskins.

skyth wrote:
So do the DA which is what you used for an example of what they should be like...

The DA codex was a humungous brainfart on so many levels. It had potential to open up a new type of play with ravenwing rush followed by Deathwing, but the list is too crippled to make it work. It is fairly priced but that is worse than useless without an immediate redux to several other codexes especially SM and Nids.

However read the comment as 'even DA allow this....'

What I dont like is that the new codex format tries to tone down lists as well as make them blander (remove the armouries supposedly so that its simple enough for the kiddies to understand). The availablility of Av14 breaking weaponry is being reduced and troops basic guns are becoming more important. However they are going about it entirely the wrong way, by making other options unattractive or even nonexistant.

Then along come the new orks. In a way they make a 'positive step' upgrade the basic ork so much that GEq firepower levels become an important focus of an army. But its done the wrong way, making orks boyz blindingly good and cheap and still throws up horrid mismatches. One answer to a large game imbalance is a larg weight onn the other end, but its hard to get right at the best of times. Codex orks adds a huge weight in a completely different direction, it doesnt stabilise, it just further tips everything askew.

If in the fluff it would be very orky, but orks are supposed to be a wildcard in the gameworld, not a wildcard between the balance of game mechanics.

TBH I'd rather Phil Kelly be in charge of new Codex development over Jervis, Gav, Andy, or any other person really.

He plays with us, he wants to have a 'bloody blast', and unlike everyone else I mentioned I can honestly say I haven't been disappointed with his work--ever.

I buy GW products when he writes a Codex.

I refuse to buy when the others do, in fact, I tend to sell.

/rip Eldar
/rip Sisters

Orlanth just fyi they seem to be trying to make the most beloved unit type--tanks, 'good'. Sadly without an Andy C or the like at the helm to revamp the core game system, it's just not possible to make the tanks 'good' by making them harder to kill by removing the ability to kill them...a revamp of the game system is needed.

5th edition rumors notwithstanding, I just don't see it happening.

Personally I wish GW would get a nice anonymous donor to give them a bunch of liquidity, and then hope GW invests wisely in another game system that does work and toss 40k on the scrap heap.

Stelek wrote:Orlanth just fyi they seem to be trying to make the most beloved unit type--tanks, 'good'. Sadly without an Andy C or the like at the helm to revamp the core game system, it's just not possible to make the tanks 'good' by making them harder to kill by removing the ability to kill them...a revamp of the game system is needed.

5th edition rumors notwithstanding, I just don't see it happening.

Personally I wish GW would get a nice anonymous donor to give them a bunch of liquidity, and then hope GW invests wisely in another game system that does work and toss 40k on the scrap heap.

I agree with you over Phil Kelly over Jervis in particular. He isn't good, but he is better described as 'not bad'.

As for tanks:
Studio monkey he say. This game is about infantry, infantry goood, tanks baad.
- Thus escalation, entanglement and the vehicle damage tables.

Then Studio monkey say. Favourite tank no kill, it die, me sad.
- So they try to remove high Strength killing power the only way they know how, with wild "kill, maim smash" swings of the nerf bat. Sometimes they miss and hit something else.

Orlanth wrote:1. What orks needed were doctrines/traits equivalent, special character armies are not really a good way of adding versatility. Special characters have a cheese edge and are not often welcome in games. Some tourneys dont allow them, and neither do some gaming groups.

Eldar could develop their diversity in the list itself. The only generic changes for the orks were some '0-1' choice changes rather than whole swap overs except through special characters. There was no proper work around within a generic list.

The hell we did! One of the best things about the new Codex's (Eldar included) is that it lets you run a themed army without some special side list! The only thing that "needs" a special character in an Ork list to make an "Evil Sunz" army is the Wazdakka character to get Bikes as troops, and you technically don't even need that since you could take Nob Bikes as Troops with a Warboss choice. Or you could take two trukk mounted mobs as troops, Nob Bikes in Elites, and then Regular Bikes in Fast. That is literally the ONLY area that needs a special character in the Ork list to do a Klan list and it's not even needed to make a fluffy Klan list, it's just there to make a Bike army!

As I went through in my other post, nearly every other Klan has a way to be fluffily represented in the new Ork Dex. And most of them are effective!

2. "Tankbustas and Burna Boyz have their weaknesses covered by their combo with a Battlewagon. No, they're not the greatest, but they're still decent."

Having burnaboyz in burna only squads doesnt work or make sense massed flamers are also very clumsy to game with. It was better when burnas were split up everywhere with some ordinary orks even in the urna squads themselves.

As for Tankbustas, the most hamfisted rules design I have ever seen from GW, and thats saying something. I can see what they were trying to do, prevent tankbustas from being used as just marine killers, but there were other ways of handling that.

Massed Flamers sounds like just the way to clear out hordes of other Orks, Gaunts, or maybe even the way to kill MEQ's in shooting. Do I miss the Burna option in Boyz mobz? Yes. Why? Because it made for a great power weapon in my Trukk Mobz. Otherwise they were useless in Boyz Mobz. They were a no-brainer in Trukks and they wanted to make the Burna Boyz a special Mob without making them overpowered. They did just that, requiring a Battlewagon to get them where they need to be - Close Combat.

Tankbustas Rules are "hamfisted" I guess. I see every rule change as "hamfisted" so those complaints really don't ring with me. I don't like the rule and said so in my Takktica. On the side though, if I DO get the itch to use a Mob of Tankbustas, they can be used well, just throw them in a Battlewagon and watch them go. It'll take intelligent use to get the most out of them, but there is utility there.

3. Bosspoles. All the varied ork add ons condensed into that one item. Plenty of people like orks and want to play them, many still do. They like characterful characters time and again, and what kept orks alive even when they had a poor codex and nothing new for year upon year was the costomisation and character. Now this has been pissed away in a fest of dumbing down unit options.
Furthermore, bosspoles on small units. Warbikes were mentioned. So you want to take a wound on a warbike - something reasonably difficult to kill just to reroll your leadership; and thats the only method. Sloppy.

Furthermore, how do bosspoles work, do you reroll an the leadership of the orks minus the guy you just killed, or before. Also does he have an armour save. I can imagine Q&A needed for every codex, but these are cripplingly obvious the very first time anyone uses a bosspole in any battle. Not only has this codex not been written well, it hasnt really been playtested - though either are unusual for GW.

What Ork add ons? You mean the compulsory Iron Gob/Big Horns from the Old Dex? The Bosspoles from before didn't do a whole lot of good, letting you re-roll your LD of crap to mob-up, which was a very sloppy rule when you actually had to execute it in game. And I seriously don't see how "character" was in the old Ork Nobz. Nobz were always "Iron Gob, PK". Nobz have been exactly what they are now ever since the hidden fist became reality in the trial assault rules. The ability to throw an extra Heavy Weapon on your Nobz was something that I always saw as an oversight in the old Dex and you can't honestly tell me that you're surprised to see it removed.

And as for the wound, it's pretty clear. You take a wound, just like when you take a regular wound in game you get your armor save and or anything else you've got to negate it. Really, it doesn't say "take a wound with no armor saves" like failing a dangerous terrain test, it just says "Take a wound", we all know what to do when that happens normally, why would this be any different?

4. Q&A from hell needed. Linking to what I just wrote Orks get a crap codex factor by the sheer volume of badly written rules asnd massive grey areas. Peronally I discount the slight slip of wording thsat causes confusion for arming boyz mobs. However bosspoles, glory hog (I hope) grabbin klaws, zzap guns and many more have huge glaring hole in the way the codex is written play with any unit including them will likely be randomised on a 4+ your way/my way.
Sucky sucky rules design.

Glory Hog doesn't really need a FAQ, neither does Grabbin Klaws or Zaap Guns. What could you possibly have to ask on Zaap Guns? These rules are pretty straight forward from how I read them. The most you could be hoping for is a revision to the rule in a FAQ, which I just don't see as "required".

5. "The looted tank issue is such a non-starter." However orks really did need looted stuff, they didnt need the boomgun on a light tank, but they do need the earthshaker.

The Orks didn't need a Basalisk in their armies. That's the IG's thing, indirect AP3 Ordinance. The choice was so obvious and a "no brainer" that when I started the game ages ago with Orks, the first thing I noticed in the Looted Tank entry was that "I want a Basalisk". That kit got passed around like a $2 whore in 3rd Ed and it never should have been.

What Orks needed is AP3 Ordinance and we got it. The only thing I miss is my Demolisher Rounds, for their S10 and AP2, but I can see that kind of Firepower on a AV14 tank being limited. Seriously, Ork Tanks are not the kind to "sit on the other edge of the table and shoot you" they're there to get up in your face and start blasting. That's the Orky way and it's been represented well. The S7 on the Killkannon is annoying, but I see it there as a "balance" against the choice vs. the Boomgun on the Looted Wagon. The Tank still does the job I want it to, provide covering fire for the Boyz (screening trukks) and killing any MEQ it touches on a 2+.

6. All the missed opportunities. Remember this is the long awaited ork codex, the one they promised to get right. Many weapons and options themselves didnt make sense and were not fixed. Kannon for example, they should have steered it away from being a missile launcher copy and made it something better. At the very least made it the equivalent to a blast krak launcher if theycoukld think of nothing else. I could have gone with that. The miniature is always so much more promising than the gun actually is. And no - most ork guns do have the firwepower they look like they should get.

They promised to get it right? You guys really think that "they worked on this for 9 years"? I've seen this comment time and time again from some people on the Ork Dex and I just don't fathom how it keeps coming up.

Too often we think of the Dev team as some group of guys that just change rules all the time, finally getting to put out a codex when the bean counters let them. As if they have all the new 4th ed dex's sitting around completed for them to use when they sit down for a test game.

They don't have that, that's not how these people work. They're just normal guys like us who've got a job. That job is not always fun and I'm sure they have to put up with all the same kind of crappy emails and meetings that anyone in a professional job at a company does. They get told what codex's to work on, when they can start work on it, and when they have to finish it by. Their time is a resource to be managed somewhere, by someone else higher up, just like any other professional. Phil Kelly started writing the Ork dex probably at the beginning of this year, maybe a little earlier. It hasn't been in production for 9 years, having 6 Point Assault 2 Shootas being tested and debated for 8 years before being finalized for print.

We got a product that was made just like the rest of them. Despite the fact that "we've had to wait longer for it than the other guys", we don't get anything special for it. I know that kind of sucks from a gamers perspective, but when I think about GW in terms of a professional having to work for a company, that's just how it has to get done.

These guys are human, what they make will not be perfect. What they did do however is a hell of a good job, with a decent amount of "competitive options" that can stand up to the other oversights that made it through the other round of codex's, and a bunch of decent options that will work just fine in a normal game setting.

to put my comments in a frame of reference, I only played KOS and couldn't stand foot slogging mobs. no mobbing up for the KOS rules so the LD issues were quite plain to me. so hopefully my comments will make some sense:

Truck boyz.

You would think that 12 models would have low surviveability.. and that is true but if used wisely they can wipe out a squad of marines:

tank shock if you dare, especially with the reinforced ram. yeah the truck could blow up but thems the breaks. if it doesn't you get to assault a fleeing squad

if you do or not, deploy out on the side of their squad, with the goal of making sure their power fist is outside the 2" killzone for the first round of combat.

take your 12 shots and hit well nothing but thats orks for you.. if your lucky you'll kill one or two

launch the assualt.. they get to go first most of the time, so you lose a couple of boyz.

retaliate with hidden claw goodness and the boyz counter attacks.

more often than not if you use them right you can end up winning combat because of the difference between using your claw and denying them theirs.

very tough to deal with if you either softenend them up with bike shots, or assault them with another trukk squad or stormboyz.

even if they die.. they will take some of the other guys with them.. and tie that squad up from moving or shooting for a turn or two. hopefully the nob will get atleast 2 rounds with his claw.. that alone may win the fight before they have to withdraw

the bosspole does help with morale.. its not pretty but I'd be hoping to roll against LD 9 after the first round of assault which isn't terrible. if you do miss you atleast have the bosspole.

I am going to retrofit a squad of sluggas to look like ard boyz.. having 4+ saves in that mess may make it a closer fight than a marine player would like. if the boyz aren't dying at the usual green splatter rate than it's not so good for them.

as far as burnas go. the same mentality but you are coming in a battlewagon armed with a mass of power weapons. yeah they will probably kill 4-5 of them in the first round of combat, but WS4 means you are going to hit. 24-30 PW attacks does add up in a hurry.
depending on how you are going to rush into close combat, you could also potentially throw flamer templates down on them and assault in such a way that the ones who flamered end up at the back of the pack.

tankbustas.. I didn't use them before.. not sure if I'll use them now compared to lootas but if you are not footslogging to take the 3 rokkits per shoota mob then you really need these guys to deal with av14.. even then its a tough nut to crack. keeping them in a wagon will help to make sure that when you deploy them you can actually shoot what you want (use the wagon to block LOS)
using this mentality tank hammers do not seem like a bad idea. if you can actually get them that close.. I'll probably include 1-2 in my squad to drop on nearby tanks that don't get out of the way.

all in all i'm not concerned about the strength of the new codex. for me it seems like an improvement on armageddon rules and should do well.

NaZ

"tank shock if you dare...especially with the reinforced ram.
Trukks ain't tanks. Only way to tank shock is if you buy the reinforced ram upgrade. Don't see why you ever wouldn'tT, red paint job, reinforced ram and grot riggers are all so good for their point cost they ought to be regarded as mandatory.

because you're adding 50% to the cost of your AV10 open-topped transport. At their base price, they're a bargain. You start throwing all the toys on their and they lose efficiency.

As I alluded to in my earlier post, red paint on a fast vehicle, under the old codex prices, cost you 10% of the vehicle price for less than 10% increased movement. It's gone up in price in the new codex. On non-fast vehicle, the difference between moving 6" and 7" gives you a concrete advantage when opponents try to assault you. And, the difference between moving 6" and 7" and still doing stuff is more than 10%, so it's a good buy. But on a fast vehicle, not so much.

My definition of success is presonal and selfish: can I make the army that I want with the army list and will is be reasonably competitive?

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: I want to make an entirely vehicle-mounted (bikes and copters and such count as vehicles for the purposes of this theme), mixed-clan, Kult of Speed army, with a focus on Evil Sunz. I am disappointed in Flash Gitz (I will have to run my Freebooterz as Boyz), but otherwise I'm quite satisfied.

*shrug* I took my lumps defending the Tyranid codex on this forum, which labeled it DOA when it was released. So far we've seen two types of Tyranid armies win GTs, and I'm still not convinced hordes (at least those with a good number of MCs) are as dead as people think (I was on my way to making a statement at Baltimore until my utter lack of playing in 2007 caught up with me).

Who know how Orks will shape up? Personally, I like them a lot and I imagine we're all probably overlooking some units that just need someone to figure them out. Even Nobz might be one. My first reaction was the same as everyone else's...a huge points sink. But if you actually sink the points, they could be a helluva hammer provided you can get them stuck in where you want.

I'm seeing at least 6 different build right of the bat, with shades of grey between them. Not all are as competitive as others, but here goes:

Footslogging horde
Fast Mechanized (small mobs in trukks)
Slow mechanized (big mobs in battlewagons)
Armoured Krumpany (as many battlewagons, using nobz to get them as troops/elites) as you can afford.
Dredmob
Biker mob (Wazzdakka, biker troops, nob bikers, FA bikers).