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HQ
Daemon Prince
Mark of Tzeentch Warptime Wings………………………………………………………..175pts

Ahriman the Exile………………………………………………….250pts

Elites

Troops
Thousand Sons x8 + 1 Sorcerer 244pts/ Doombolt Mounted in a Rhino …………………………………………..289pts

Thousand Sons x8 + 1 SorcererDoombolt Mounted in a Rhino …………………………………………..289pts

Chaos Space Marines x10 Aspiring Champion
Power weapon
Meltabombs Plasma pistol Plasma gun Meltagun Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armor……………………….280pts

Chaos Space Marines x10 Aspiring Champion Power weapon MeltabombsPlasma pistol Plasma gun Meltagun Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armor……………………….280pts


Heavy Support
Havocs x5Icon of Tzeentch 4x Plasmagun 175pts

Chaos Land Raider Dirge Caster Daemonic Possession ..………………………………………...250pts

Advice Welcome and Appreciated (just dont suggest fzorgle as i wont use it cuz i play mainly in friendly game and that seems to be a bit of a cheesy power)

(im also not intending to start another Lash debate in this i just want advice)

Are you putting the Havocs in the Raider? Because I think you're better off with preds or oblits otherwise.

Even then, you might want to consider Chosen over Havocs.

Otherwise it is an interesting and characterful list. You can give buddy there a second psychic power, say Doombolt, should you be so inclined.

Doesn't extra armor cost 15 in the new dex?

My bad sorry thats why theres the (ish) by 2000pts i didnt bother really adding it up but it in and around there

IMO, good start for a Tzeentch list.
Nothing MAJOR jumps out at me, but I see a few things (note, I did not check your points).

This bothers me the most:

Heavy Support
Havocs x5 75pts
Icon of Tzeentch 40pts
4x Plasmagun 60pts…………………………………………………175pts

What do you plan on doing with them?

With a 24" range, they won't be handling any tanks, unless the tanks advance.
Heavy Support tanks (Predators, Whirlwinds, etc) that just sit back and shoot aren't going to be worried about this unit AT ALL.
IMO, you're better off fielding lesser #'s of Heavy Weapons (like Lascannons) in havocs than larger #'s of Assault Weapons (Plasma).
Unless you're going to mount them in the Land Raider and go zooming around, tank sniping with 'em. LOL
(Which I don't suggest. I LOVE my Land raiders, but they draw enough fire that they almost ALWAYS get popped, eventually)


Another suggestion is for your T-Sons.
You have 8 & a Champ. That's a 9-strong unit.
You are a scoring unit until you lose your 5th model. Right?
With an 8-man unit (7 & champ), you're a scoring unit until you lose... your 5th model.

IMO, Drop 1 T-Son from each unit. that'll give you some points to play with.

Use part of those points to drop the P-Wpn & add a P-Fist. With 10-strong CSM units (me likey), you'll be able to hide that powerfist a lot easier. Plus... Tank bashing ability.

I'd drop D-Possess on the Land Raider and use X-Armor instead.
With the limited heavies you have, you can't really afford the loss of BS that possession brings with it.


The other thing you have to worry about is your plan.
What do you intend for each unit to DO? What's their role?
Ahriman, for example. What do you intend to do with him???
You don't have any units in here that look like an effective "retinue" to attach him to.
You can't attach him to your Prince... The Prince has wings.
(Okay, well, you COULD... but it wouldn't be smart. LOL)

You might be better off with another D-Prince or a different HQ uit... 250 points is a LOT of points for a unit you don't have a plan for.

Hmmm... Now that I look at your list further, I see a LOT of problems...

Watch my running total in RED, and compare it to yours...

Chaos Space Marines x10 180pts 180
Aspiring Champion 15pts 195
Power weapon 15pts 210
Meltabombs 5pts 215
Plasma pistol 15pts 230
Plasma gun 15pts 245
Meltagun 10pts 255
Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armor 40pts (should be 50) 305

……………………….280pts Even if I count the Rhino at 40 points, you're at 295

Your unit toal is off by 25 points.

My advice -- Go back, tweak your list, add the points up with a calculator (no offense).
Once you have the exact points you want, then repost the list and have us look at it again.


Eric

And also tzap out those individual points costs!

MM is on with the thinking about what Ahriman is doing in such a mechanized force (my guess - rides with a 1k Son squad and then kills from there, so that's a LOT of points in 1 rhino), and commentary on havoks, the need for fists, etc.

My suggestions for your rework:

- Doombolt on the prince is nice with his warptime, as you can reroll the 3 to hits and S4 to wounds, making it far nastier than by itself (and 10 points is cheap for the anti-MEQ dakka)
- Make the havoks chosen if you want to keep the plasma squad o' doom, and maybe add 1 more dude if you can find the points (to get more out of the IoT, and to not lose plasma gunners sooner)
- Scrap the plasma pistols on the CSM squads to upgrade the ACs with powerfists
- Scrap the caster & maybe bolter on the raider, but I say keep the possession, you've got twin-linked weapons and are gonna SUCK fire

That's mostly what I got. I'd personally keep 9 1k Sons cause it's fluffy, but what can I say, I keeps it fluffy when possible.

Look forward to your new list, and remember to check your points again (and not post individual ones)

- Salvage

MM is on with the thinking about what Ahriman is doing in such a mechanized force (my guess - rides with a 1k Son squad and then kills from there, so that's a LOT of points in 1 rhino),

LOL
That's the problem, though.
You don't put him in a Rhino with a unit of T-Sons. Put him in a Rhino with Nurgle Marines... heck, even Khorne or Slaanesh.
Those marines were all MEANT to fight HtH.

T-Sons are the ONE CSM that should stay out of combat whenever possible.
Why?

T-Sons: Yay! We get one attack each in HtH!
Ahriman: No, wait guys... you charged...
T-Sons: Oh, yeah! That's right!... That means we get... ONE attack each in HtH!

LOL

(Slow & purposeful has its' drawbacks)

On the other hand, their bolters are AP3.
Why would you charge with T-Sons if you didn't absolutely HAVE to? The only time you do that is if your opponent will charge you in his next turn, to rob him of the extra attack each for charging. Even then, it might be worth it NOT to charge if you're in cover & your opponent doesn't have Frag grenades (or equivalent).

Eric

On the other hand, their bolters are AP3.
Why would you charge with T-Sons if you didn't absolutely HAVE to?

Friend of mine has run his rhino-drive-by 1k Sons against me a few times, with devastating results. Then again, he was playing against my Tau which are a) undergunned and b) totally inexperienced judging from their general

Frankly I agree with you, 1k Sons should stomp up (or not) and make use of their 24" range. Driving up and hoping out is asking for trouble, and mostly happens when you get greedy and want rapid fire range too soon. I'd personally rather break any 1k Sons rhinos down into 2 more Sons (if I've got their points right) and shuffle it ftw.

But then what about objectives and stuff? I think that's an attraction of APC transport for the rubrics.

- Salvage

I run a Rhino Rush Chaos list and I've had a lot of success with the Rhino-borne Ksons.

9 Sons, 1 Sorcerer w/Warptime. + Chaos Rhino.

Dump and rapid fire, then endure the enemy countercharge with invul saves and get your hits in with warptime and the force weapon

But then what about objectives and stuff? I think that's an attraction of APC transport for the rubrics.

- Salvage

Bah. No problem.
With a 3+ A save & 4+I save... who cares? March 'em up slowly towards the objectives.
Of course, you want to take advantage of all of the cover that you can, since they're rolling 2d6 for move whether they are in the open or cover. At least then, if charged, you go first (again, barring Frag, etc).

Dump and rapid fire, then endure the enemy countercharge with invul saves and get your hits in with warptime and the force weapon

I still don't like it. That AP3 is FIERCE, no doubt about it... but MAN, you'll get hammered by whatever survives (I'm always thinking "worst case" scenario... MEQ and tougher in HtH). Even a Force Weapon attack won't do THAT MUCH against MEQ's with 1 wound.

IMO, shooty units in rhino's are a bad move.
Let me explain...

You have a unit of T-Sons with a Rhino. Are they embarked or deployed?

Embarked:
Any shooting you'd have had is wasted, now. The most you can get is one guy out of the hatch. Of course, that'll slow you down.

So, what are you going to do? Rush forward 12"?
K.
So?
So, now you're within 12"
What are you going to do? Shoot? No. You can't disembark.
So, you move less.
Fine.
Now, you've moved 11" (hopefully not over difficult terrain, or you have to roll some dice).
You disembark & shoot. Hopefully, you're in rapid Fire range.
Now, you're sitting ducks, because you can't charge.

The first thing I do is pop the tank (depending on what the rest of the board looks like).
If there are survivors from any possible penetrating 6's, I move in with my own weapons.
I'll whittle you down (maybe), then assault you into oblivion.
A Squad of T-Sons is far too expensive to waste them on one drive-by shooting attack.

Disembarked?
You can't even get out and shoot on the same turn as you embark!
now, I've got an EASILY "pop"able tank full of juicy tidbits.
Hmm... Let's see... WHERE did I put that Lascannon?


Nah. I just don't like the drive-by.

It leaves your pecker dangling in the wind FAR too much for me to be comfortable.

Can I say that here?

Eric

Okay so new and revised list (with better math...)

HQ
Daemon Prince/ Mark of Tzeentch/Warptime/ Doombolt/ Wings 185pts

Elites
Chosen Chaos Space Marines x10/ Mark of Tzeentch/ Meltaguns x5 270pts

Chaos Terminators x5/Terminator Champions x5/ Mark of Khorne/Pair of Lightning Claws x5 280pts

Chaos Terminators x5/ Mark of Tzeentch/Reaper Autocannon 210pts

Troops
Thousand Sons x7 + 1 Sorcerer/ Doombolt /Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armor 281pts


Thousand Sons x7 + 1 Sorcerer/ Doombolt /Mounted in a Rhino with Extra Armor 281pts

Heavy Support
Obliterator Cult x3 225pts

Chaos Land Raider 220pts /Dirge Caster/ Pintle mounted twin-linked bolter/Daemonic Possession 250pts

Grand total 2028pts

MagickalMemories wrote:

Dump and rapid fire, then endure the enemy countercharge with invul saves and get your hits in with warptime and the force weapon

I still don't like it. That AP3 is FIERCE, no doubt about it... but MAN, you'll get hammered by whatever survives (I'm always thinking "worst case" scenario... MEQ and tougher in HtH). Even a Force Weapon attack won't do THAT MUCH against MEQ's with 1 wound.

Then that is down to choosing a bad target, 9 rapid firing TSons average 6 dead MEQs, maybe 7 with the sorceror. So a 6man las/plas isn't going to hammer you with survivors, and neither is a 10 man squad. Even a PF sgt has a 4+inv save to get through.

IMO, shooty units in rhino's are a bad move.
Let me explain...

You have a unit of T-Sons with a Rhino. Are they embarked or deployed?

Embarked:
Any shooting you'd have had is wasted, now. The most you can get is one guy out of the hatch. Of course, that'll slow you down.

They can disembark and fire (slow and purposeful).

So, what are you going to do? Rush forward 12"?
K.
So?
So, now you're within 12"
What are you going to do? Shoot? No. You can't disembark.

huh, why? You can disembark as long as the transport didn't move more than 12".

So, you move less.
Fine.
Now, you've moved 11" (hopefully not over difficult terrain, or you have to roll some dice).
You disembark & shoot. Hopefully, you're in rapid Fire range.
Now, you're sitting ducks, because you can't charge.

Inability to charge doesn't in and of itself make them sitting ducks - they may have pretty much hammered you with their ap3 rapid fire, they may have used that mobility to make sure they hit on a flank with your other stuff dangling in the wind, they may have used the rhino to shield themselves from other units. And barring really bad target shooting the target should not be in much position to do much about it.

FYI if you are taking a DP, and Mark of Tzeentch to improve your invulnerable save...don't bother.

They aren't very survivable, and it's light weapons that are going to kill your standard DP. That mark is a red herring. Lots of points, little effect.

re: DP with Mark of tzeentch the marks not really for the inv save more so for the two psychic powers doombolt just kills when you get re rolls

Why you'd bother with Doombolt is anyones guess...it isn't very doom-like. More like Wussbolt. Woo I killed a Marine!

Should take Bolt of Change if you are going Tzeentch and want to shoot, so you can at least threaten tanks with shooty goodness. And you'll still kill just 1 marine--with Wussbolt v2.