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Space marines the greatest warriors of humantity, to start with then they are trained given the best armour the imperium can provide there the elite of th elite. So should the SM be strength 5 or lower the strength of all other armies.

or theres the 2nd out come they strike at normal initiative because they could physically lift it.

Those jerks are already strong enough!

agreed. the lst thing we need is STR 10 hidden fists running around. on a D6 system, str 4 is damn good for a line troop. str 5 would be to much i think.

Well that was shot down quick what about upgrading Termies strength then or lowering a Wraithlord's...

Terminators with PFists are already S8 which is quite high. Assault Terminators have twin lightning claws which are nice in conjunction with S4 or have a Thunder Hammer which also delivers S8. As studderingdave pointed out improved Strength would make them S10 which would be going too high. Beyond the additional damage they would cause, there is no need to weaken the protection T5 characters have against being Insta-Killed by spamming the field with S10 fists. Or create even one less reason for taking tracked vehicles.

As far as a Wraithlord goes, it has a grand total of 2 attacks and seems nicely balanced in its current incarnation.

The basic Marine statline is quite good. It's only the overexposure it has in the metagame that makes it seem "generic".

I see that my secondary Ideas got shot down before it even got off the ground,

How about a rule for the SM that allows them to fall back in CC if they can't hurt the enemy IE wraithlords.

Getting stuck in combat with something you can't hurt is a problem all infantry in the game face (I suppose so Walkers could also have this problem if they lack Dread CCW's or a high strength). Given And They Shall Known No Fear, it seems odd to give Marines a special rule that allows them to run away from the enemy (even under the guise of a "tactical retreat/re-assessment of the situation").

Although the requirement that you stay locked in combat with something you can't hurt is a weakness in the game mechanics (to me anyway) that some other systems do not replicate, it is going to be here as long as GW wants to have an Assault Phase-based approach to close combat resolution.

Tarpitting the enemy with what they cannot hurt or have trouble hurting is an important tactic in the current 40k ruleset, and giving Marines an out would be rather strange. Being able to get out of CC is a hugely valuable skill, and units that have the Hit and Run USR pay for it.

Going back to your Anti Eldar Tactica thread and your focus on the Wraithlord vs. basic Marine in this thread, I imagine that one of your local Eldar players has been running a Wraithlord-heavy army that your Black Templar would be better able to counter if their basic troopers were S5 and as such able to wound the Wraithlord on a 6? I imagine this would be particularly frustrating as Marine stats can wound even +1T Carnifexes on a 6. Even more frustrating given all those wasted attacks from having BP + CCW . . .

I'm not terribly familiar with the BT Codex, but doesn't most of your army have widespread access to power fists/meltas and other weapons that have a high enough strength to reliably hurt the Wraithlord within assault distance, not to mention assault cannon access? Isn't there also an improve strength vow that the Emperor's Champion gives you access to? Hurts your Initiative, but the boost in Strength could be worth it.

I remember the Templars having some unusual squad equipment options-could you throw in a Powerfist and a Power Weapon with the Vow to have more ways of negating his saves in CC and protecting you against having your CC weapon carriers Torrented? This might also be a good time to break out your Veteran equivalents (can't remember their names)-as I recall they may be able to run Powerfist and Lightning Claws, possibly with some Vet Skills? Expensive, but might work as a counter.

If you opponent only has one Wraithlord, your army should be able to hurt it pretty reliably and you can target it with the units (Crusader squads, Assault Squad with Meltas/Powerfist, Terminators with Cannons, etc.) that have the instruments to take it down. If you opponent has multiple Wraithlords the list you posted in the Anti Eldar Tactica would seem to have plenty of tools to use against your opponent.

If anything I would be happy to face your opponent-Wraithlord heavy Eldar (possibly including some Wraithguard?) seem a much better match up for the Templar than a list based around the Cylon Death Fleet (insert other favored euphemism if desired) build. After all, if your squads are getting into CC with his walkers that means that either a) he is coming across the board to get you in CC or b) you are able to get your assault units across the board into his deployment zone. Either of these would seem to play well for an assault based army like yours?

If there are some specific restraints/wierdness in your opponent's play style that would stop any of these suggestions from being effective or undermine them? If so, please post them-I'm sure some effective counters can be found for the BT.

I find it bizarre that you think SMs need all these power boosts in the first place. What's wrong with them, really?

Black Templars having problems with WL? Gotta be kidding me.

Suffer not the unclean to live.

Swamp the WL's and every other MC out there with S5 attacks.

Against pretty much every MC but the T8 ones, you lose nothing by going at I3. There are no I3 MC. So they are already slower than you, or faster.

This is something I've also been thnking about for a while but my modelling skills arn't up to the job.

I'm pretty sure SM are under scale, both model wise and characteristic wise. The fluff says they stand out among a crowd even without their armour and that one could take on 100 'normal' men. Don't see this in 40K!

What I would like is to see S5 marines with improved guns and everything so that they are 'super humans' OK they can't take on 100 guard (I take normal as your bog standard unarmed untrained guy). Think the models should be improved so they are bigger (inquisitor proportions, look at those rules, now that's a space marine!) and obviously up the points to match so instead of taking half a company (surely this is over kill for the sort of army size in 40K acording to the background......but yet it's balanced) you maybe take a couple of squads or something. Yes this may harm the 'fun aspect' of fighting due to being limited model wise (landraiders?) and may cause other problems (bolters compared to heavy bolters) but maybe could be counteracted with aditional wargear being availble to each chap. I dno't know, I don't have the answers and understand how this would seriously affect other wepons etc in the game. Maybe add in extra 'skills' or something or make them more flexible on a squad level, so instead of playing an army you play a sort of squad with options.

Like I said I've got no answers, just a niggling that marines don't live up to the background compared to other armies.

covenant84, there's a difference between the "Fluff" and the "Rules."

If Fluff = Rules, then SM = uber-broken = the following statline:

Fluff Marine 150pts
WS 6, BS 6, S 6, T 6, W 4, I 6, A 4, Ld 12, Sv -1+...wait a sec...huh?

Feel No Pain, Fearless, Immune to Instant Death, We'll Be Back, Bionics, Rosarius

+3 Strength Power Weapon (ignores all saves)
Frag Grenades (Ra 24", S8 AP3, 10" Blast)
Krak Grenades (Ra 24", Vortex template)
Bolter (Ra 60", S6, AP 3, Assault 15...Oops, that's the Vulcan Megabolter...)

You see where I'm going?

In the GAME, Fluff =/= Rules. If it did, an Apocalypse game of 10,000 points to a side would be a single combat squad of Space Mahrienz versus abour 5,000 Boyz.

Their awesome as is.

As for the OP, and what Alpharius Walks said - BT should never, EVER have a problem with Wraithlords. Power Fists galore, Meltaguns up the wazoo, and enough S5 to kill anything, given the vow. Against Eldar, they're going first regardless of your position due to their high Initiative. You lose nothing by making all your troops able to wound their T3 softies on a 2+. Suffer Not PFs will make mincemeat of a Wraithlord...S9, wow.

CK

hence i don't have a solution lol.

i think the mega bolters a bit ott though dice doesn't equal shots, just relative damage in 40K.

would be great to try it out though, would make an interesting game........ so many crazy thoughts. Hey why not just use inquisitor models and play 40K with them!!!!! scratch build a few rhinos landaraiders, thunderhawks all to scale droooooool

no chance of that happening though

Aristotle wrote:Space marines the greatest warriors of humantity, to start with then they are trained given the best armour the imperium can provide there the elite of th elite. So should the SM be strength 5 or lower the strength of all other armies.

or theres the 2nd out come they strike at normal initiative because they could physically lift it.

When you consider that all of the basic foot troopers that I know of in 40K are already str3 as standard, then the Marines are already stronger than all other armies anyway at str4 as standard.

What wouldn't be a bad idea is if you could buy an upgrade instead that raises either the strength to 5 or raises initiative to 5, but you would have to pay through the nose for the upgrade as it would make marines very unbalanced otherwise.
(a bit like furious charge special rule but as an upgrade rather than an ability) Hence why the powerfist was raised from 15pts to 30pts.

Aristotle wrote:I see that my secondary Ideas got shot down before it even got off the ground,

How about a rule for the SM that allows them to fall back in CC if they can't hurt the enemy IE wraithlords.

That rule already exists - it's called Losers Fall Back.

The thing is, SM are kinda stupid and overconfident. They're so used to killing things in HtH, the idea that they're not hurting the WL takes a while to get through their thick heads.

Each round that the WL kills at least 1 SM, the SM will lose combat and be given the opportunity to rethink the situation. When they finally come to their senses and break, they will fall back.

So it's very realistic for them to sit their pounding their ceramite heads against the wraithbone wall of a Wraithlord.

And really, the responsibility for pointing them in the right direction to avoid being tarpitted rests with the General, not the rules.

covenant84 wrote:I'm pretty sure SM are under scale, both model wise and characteristic wise. The fluff says they stand out among a crowd even without their armour and that one could take on 100 'normal' men. Don't see this in 40K!

SM are modeled about right, scale-wise. It's the current IG (Cadians & esp. Catachans) which are overscaled. It's like every one of the fighting forces of humanity is built like a linebacker (6'4", 250#). If the IG were properly shrunk back down to 5'8" to 5'10", SM would look properly larger.

As for charcteristics, SM are fine. Unless you want to play a single squad of "Movie" Marines against an IG army. Just be prepared that every single SM model would cost you at least $25 *each*.

Some additional thoughts on BT's:

Although it would be expensive, Sword Brethren can buy combat shields and Assault Squads can get storm shields as well. If your problem is the fist dying before it does its work, that should help.

Fun things from your allies' lists (perhaps not as reliable, but again, fun):

Daemon Hunters: Grand Master-if he rolls a "6" to wound the Wraithlord is gone (force weapon). Risky but also has the potential to be quite humorous. You could also use GK Terminators-wounding on 6's with Power Weapons.

Neither of these are really optimal though.

Assassins: Vindicare (AP2, wounds on a 4+ or 2+ once per game, invulnerable-ignoring round could also be useful at a key moment such as shooting a Fortuned turbo-boosting jetbike squad that needs killing)

If you're feeling lucky the Eversor's Neuro-gauntlet can do some damage as well.

Witch Hunters:

Inquisitor/INQ Lord: Give him 3 acolytes with Mancatchers to reduce the Wraithlord to one attack per turn. Throw in upgrades as desired: three CC servitors with powerfists, inferno pistol if you think you'll get the shot up close, Inquisitoral Mandate to buff his squad/others piling on, Eviscerator. Works well as a buff to other Wraithlord killingess.

Sisters Repentia: Not all that good, but combined with the Inquisitorial Mandate and a Priest with Eviscerator. Probably too hard to control/hide them on most boards, but if you could borrow the models I could see it as fun one-time use.

Dominion Squad: drive up in a Rhino and unleash 4 melta attacks. Give the Veteran Superior an Eviscerator if it lives.

Seraphim: mid-large squad with x2 twin linked inferno pistols, Veteran Superior with the Book of St. Lucius and Eviscerator. Team them up with a cheap Canoness with jump pack and nothing else (well maybe Litanies of Faith if you want some extra Faith Points). Your opponent will probably flatten the Canoness in the first round of combat-after that you'll have all the faith points you need. Plus the Seraphim have hit and run so after the first two rounds they can, pop the BS4 twin linked S8 AP2 weapons again, and charge on in.

If your opponent gets wise to this you could of course tool her up for one game (Blessed Weapon or Eviscerator, Cloak with Insta-Kill Immunity, Inferno Pistol, etc. as desired).

I was thinking in General SM not BT's (cause there stuck anyway fearless) mainly because Calgar has a rule that allows you to either pass or fail tests. and the only reason I don't take the enhanced strength is because Abhor the witch and Accept any challenge are better traits...

PS has everyone passes on the PF initiative idea?

JohnHwangDD wrote:SM are modeled about right, scale-wise. It's the current IG (Cadians & esp. Catachans) which are overscaled. It's like every one of the fighting forces of humanity is built like a linebacker (6'4", 250#). If the IG were properly shrunk back down to 5'8" to 5'10", SM would look properly larger.

I agree that there should be more of a size difference between the figures, but what metric are you using to claim Guardsmen are too large?

Aristotle wrote: lowering a Wraithlord's...

Aristotle wrote: IE wraithlords.

seems you have some beef with wraithlords. i do agree that the T8 is something to dig in on, but you should be packing fists in your squads anyways. the wraithlord's sterength isnt gonna drop anytime soon, as the codex is new still.

also, if your having a wraithlord get into CC with you, maybe your doing some tactical errors, it only moves 6/6, maybe drop some lascannon/krak/melta love on it.

WaltF4 wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:SM are modeled about right, scale-wise. It's the current IG (Cadians & esp. Catachans) which are overscaled. It's like every one of the fighting forces of humanity is built like a linebacker (6'4", 250#). If the IG were properly shrunk back down to 5'8" to 5'10", SM would look properly larger.

I agree that there should be more of a size difference between the figures, but what metric are you using to claim Guardsmen are too large?

I'm comparing with the RT / 2E models, in which IG, SM (they were only T3 back in RT), and Eldar were all comparable in size - "human sized".

The SM got upsized for 3E, which was good. But upsizing the Catachans and then Cadians was a big mistake.

Back in 3rd I believe optional fall back was in the back of the book with the caveat that it could be overpowered for Marines, because of ATSKNF.

Aristotle wrote:PS has everyone passes on the PF initiative idea?

I1 Power fists are the only real protection their close combat opponents (particularly vehicles with a WS, independent characters, monstrous creatures) have against them-removing that restriction would have some pretty unbalancing impacts on the game. Their points would have to be adjusted much higher.

Well I didn't mean that the Iniative would be their normal but minus 1 or something?

The only word I can think of to describe this thread it 'hurr'

Why you think an army with easily the most cost effective basic trooper in the game needs a buff is well beyond my reasoning.

Or why you would ever want to fight even more marine opponents.

what about sm characters they are only st4 when chaos and others are st5 or more.

I agree with Fatlad2613 why should SM charactors be pathetically weak, it seems obvious to me that they would recieve additional training and become stronger tougher more attuned to battlefield conditions. So would anyone think it plausable for a strength upgrade or mabye the rules about tactically retreating..

S4 is fine.

T5 maybe, but you're looking at changing points and stat lines across the board, for instance maybe Wraithlords and C'tan should be T9.

If you consider a Space Marine to be the equal of a Tyranid Warrior then WS5 S5 T4 I5 4+ for one and WS4 S4 T5 I4 3+ for the other is not unreasonable. It also makes Space Marines immune to instant death short of S10 and keeps their powerfists at S8.

It also means that GW will be selling less plastic kits w/ an increased points cost for Space Marines .

fatlad2613 wrote:what about sm characters they are only st4 when chaos and others are st5 or more.

S5 for Chaos was so last Codex: the only way to get higher strength outside of a powerfist now is with Daemon Weapons which have a chance of hurting the user.

As far as other armies:

Daemonhunters: Yes, they can easily do it, but they need it. Period.
Dark Eldar: Possible with combat drugs, but expensive and usually inferior to just using the Agonizer.
Eldar: The Autarch can be S4 but then can't use a power weapon. The psykers can wound on 2+ but don't have power weapons.
Imperial Guard: Powerfists only on independent characters
Necrons: The Lord only. And the rest of the army is pretty much incapable of buying power weapons or power fists.
Orks: Can get S5 but can't have a normal power weapon so you'll usually seeing them striking at I1 with the Klaw
Tau: OK S5 but no power weapons
Tyranids: The S5+ leaders (warriors/Tyrant) are either monstrous creatures or have rending without power weapons. Either way they are quite expensive.
Witch Hunters: Need to use powerfists or 1 per Army blessed weapon.

S4 with the ability to use at-initiative power weapons is pretty rare in 40k.

T5, like S5, introduces many game balance issues. Given the flexibility of Marines, you'd have to price T5 quite high, and every character would basically be getting the Mantle for free (there isn't that much S10 in the game . . .)

lets talk about points cost all round. at least two chaos characters have str 5 and are 35-40 points cheeper than commander dante, who is str 4. plus whilst i agree dante as some cool rules the chaos guys have just as cool rules if not cooler. is this to get poeple buying chaos. even the chapter master can't hurt the nightbringer and in an assault army like blood angles thats a joke.

The Blood Angels also have an S5 I6 character with a Force Weapon . . . with Might of Heroes that would be what, 6 +D3 attacks on the charge?

As far as I can remember, there are 4 Chaos named characters with access to S5+:

Abaddon: exceedingly deadly, yes. But for 275 pts. he should be.

Fabius Bile: S5 but does he have a power weapon?

Huron: Needs to use the P-fist, otherwise normal S4 only

Kharn: also a close combat monster, yes. But didn't he loose his invulnerable? Makes it much easier for him to get splatted if he doesn't clear the kill zone.