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I had an old Empire army (5th edition) but I never really got it finished, and now I am looking at building it up for 7th edition. My plan was an army from Nuln, because I like the color scheme, but I don't want to have so many hangunners that I am playing Imperial Guard.

Given that, what are the must have units. Which units should I stay away from. And any other high level advise on where to start.

Over the next few days I will be writing up lists for 1000 points (no magic phase), 1000 2000 and 3000 point standard

Good/Great: arch Lector on a war altar, great cannons, steam tanks, knights

Bad: engineer, halberdiers (compared to othe foot troops)

Decent: the rest

Good thing about the empire is that the list is quite versatile, so you can build all kinds of set-ups without shooting yourself in the foot. Some basic building blocks for every empire army are around, though:
-Great Cannon, preferably 2. These things are nice answers to the really tough stuff you see against you now and then, such as big monsters.
-At least 1 unit of knights. These guys are cheap, have great armor save and pack decent punch in charge, so they make excellent support units for your infantry (or you could theme your list around them if you'd want with knights being core).
-In 2k+ points games, you really benefit from any of the ld9 generals, as psychology is one of the big problems of the empire armies.
-Take swordsmen as your main combat blocks, they are generally more durable & cost efficent than either spearman or halberdiers unless you want either of the latter for thematic/variety reasons.

Thanx for the advise. I currently have one solid great cannon, and one that is built so i can be a mortar or a cannon.

The arch lector was deffinetly on my list, though I will have to look again at the war altar, I don't like the existing model so I will have to make one to my liking if I decide to use it.

I am glad you told me swordsmen are the better option. I was about to put together a big block of halbardiers, I will switch that to swordsmen, maybe with a halbardier detachment for taking out better armored foes.

Speaking of men with swords, how are greatswords? I have 15, and was going to bulk it up to 20 for 10 man detachments.

Knights, I was planning on having two units built up, one with lances one with great weapons. Unless one is much better than the other?

Anyway, in overall thoughts, I was thinking of putting one unit of handgunners in every group, even if it is a small detachment, just to keep the Nuln theme going, but I am worried that handgunner detachments will be wasted points since they can't move and fire.



Final thought, General on Griffon, I have the model, and would like to use it eventually. Any downside (other than tossing my LD9 out the window) that will end up with this model on the shelf?

The arch lector is only 'great' with the war altar.

Dragonmann wrote:Speaking of men with swords, how are greatswords? I have 15, and was going to bulk it up to 20 for 10 man detachments.

Knights, I was planning on having two units built up, one with lances one with great weapons. Unless one is much better than the other?

Anyway, in overall thoughts, I was thinking of putting one unit of handgunners in every group, even if it is a small detachment, just to keep the Nuln theme going, but I am worried that handgunner detachments will be wasted points since they can't move and fire.

Final thought, General on Griffon, I have the model, and would like to use it eventually. Any downside (other than tossing my LD9 out the window) that will end up with this model on the shelf?

Speaking of greatswords, they aren't the worst of the lot, altough not getting a magic banner unless you have general of the empire is annoying. You definetly should wield battle standard bearer if you use greatswords (altough bsb is indeed very useful in any infantry heavy builds). Knights with great weapons unfortunately lose to their lance armed brethen as you only get +1 str with mounted great weapon dudes nowadays. Unless your planning taking inner circle, you should stick with the lance knights.

Handgunner detatchments are ok, pretty much all the good empire shooting is move-or-fire so you should just stick them back and blast away (the detachment benefits are generally just added bonus, no need to worry too much if you get supporting fire or support charges with these guys).

You can wield the griffon guy for fun now and then, but the empire really needs the general giving his ld9 around and not running in the opponents background, out of reach. Maybe in bigger battles where the griffon guy need not be the general, altough the griffon itself isn't really the best of the monsterous mounts (no armor save hurts here a lot vs. light & medium shooting).

Chaoslord has already given you some great advice.

Take a look at these War Altars for some inspiration:
http://www.warhammer-empire.com/theforum/index.php?topic=19291.0

Many use the old model as a base for their conversions.

Btw, on WH-Empire you 'll also be able to find a lot more advice on playing the Empire. Check out the 'War Room' for instance for some great articles on tactics and such.

I've played with an EC on Griffon and it can definately work! Though IMO you need to base your whole army around him. In my 2250 pts list I fielded:
EC on Griffon
2 Captains on Pegasi
1 lvl 2 Wizard with the Rod of power
2 Units of IC knights (one with lances the other with GW)
2 Units of Knights
2 Blocks of infantry with dual CC detachments each
2 Great Cannons

As you can see the list is highly mobile with 3 flyers and 4 units of cavalry, while 2 infantry blocks form a good backbone and the Cannons provide excellent support against enemy nasties.

Speaking of Greatswords, you can't use them as detachments.

Speaking of detachments in general, consider going with 9 models in a 3x3 square. You will be small enough to maneuver effectively, and have enough men that even if the entire front rank of the detachment is killed, you should still be US 5 and negate the enemy's ranks, and get +1 CR for flank.

Speaking of Halberdiers, I only use them as detachments any more, since on a countercharge they strike first with S4. It is all they are good for.

I think he meant that he wanted to bump his GS unit size up to 20 so he would be allowed to take 2 Detachments of 10 for the GS unit.

The 3x3 detachment formation is excellent, really helps with deployment, manouvering and of course combat.

BAWTRM wrote:I think he meant that he wanted to bump his GS unit size up to 20 so he would be allowed to take 2 Detachments of 10 for the GS unit.

Oh. Well, that would be a very sensible thing to do.

Okay, here is my first try at an army list:

Captain of the empire w/ Armor of Meteoric Iron, hand weapon and pistol
+9 Great swords w/ full command

20 swordsmen w/ full command and the war banner
+9 halbardiers
+9 hand gunnners

20 spearmen w/ sergeant and musician
+5 handgunners
+5 handgunners

Great cannon

Mortar

Helstorm

---

the spearmen with their two gunner detachments will hang back and protect the gun batteries while the swordsmen and the greatswords with captain advance. I am very artillery heavy, but we agreed to no magic phase to start with, so I don't need a wizard for dispel dice. I know my opponents will be dwarves or lizardmen, but I don't know the armies the will bring.

Thoughts? Advise? Condemnation?

What are you playing to, 1000 points?

I think you should look to your detachments.
Swordsmen: drop the handgunners and replace them with archers, who skirmish and can move-and-fire. If the swordsmen are advancing, the handgunners won't be able to keep up and still shoot. If nothing else, you can use the archers as a missle screen, to block LOS to your bigger unit. Oh, and State Troops can't have the War Banner unless you take a General of the Empire as your general... .
Spearmen: This is a classic anvil unit. Drop one detachment of handgunners and replace it with nine CC troops, Free Company would be best to get six attacks on a 3-man frontage. Bump the handgunners' numbers up a bit.
Greatswords: find the points to get them a detachment- some Free Company, if nothing else. As a small, expensive, and hitty unit, the Greatswords will be a prime target for your opponent. You really want a detachment, to negate enemy ranks if nothing else, since by they time they get into combat I bet you won't have a rear rank any more. In fact, I'd probably take more Greatswords and fewer spearmen, since the spearmen are going to be hanging back anyway- which is a waste. A big block of spears will have a hard time protecting two artillery pieces, it just isn't maneuverable enough.

The Helstorm is a good choice. Consider ditching the mortar. Replace it with another Great Cannon, or with cavalry if possible.

I worry that your general is not very tooled up. He needs a Sword of Might at the very least.

Finally, your lack of cavalry disturbs me. You aren't going to be very mobile. I have visions of your greatswords and swordsmen out in the center of the battlefield, surrounded by skirmishing skinks, dying by inches and unable to come to grips, as your artillery and handgunners blast away in futile desperation.

I suggest you play on a small table.

I agree. You'll get out-flanked and picked apart. An Empire list needs mobility to help control the tempo of the battle.

I did a bit of playing about on Army Builder, and came up with this, for 997 points.

Captain of the Empire, full plate, shield, barded warhorse, Sword of Power

15 Greatswords w/ full command,
7 Free Company detachment

20 swordsmen, full command
5 archers detachment
9 free company detachment

10 handgunners
5 handgunners detachment

Great Cannon

Helstorm

5 pistoliers, upgrade 1 to outrider w/repeater pistol


I got rid of the spearmen. If a unit is going to sit in the rear, it needs to be doing something- so I replaced them with some handgunners, with a detachment of handgunners. Now you have the beginnings of a gunline, which can concentrate fire on the enemy's big units to soften them up. Your fast cav can run up and harass the enemy with ranged fire, block marches, threaten flanks, and bait enemy charges. Meanwhile, your swords & Greatswords are marching up to close with the enemy. Hopefully you will be able to get some combined charges on units already weakened by your shooting, and your general can pursue 3d6 if necessary.

I've got to say, though, if you can find the models & the points- in small games, nothing brings the hurt for Empire like heavy cav. I'd take 2 units, one of 6 with champ, and one of 5 with full command for my general to go in; and I'd gobble up his small soft units with them while the guns thin out his bigger units. Then I'd go for flank charges on his weakened units and roll him up. If the dice were in a cooperative mood, anyway. Others may disagree, and your mileage may vary- dwarfs in particular can be tough to shift.

I updated the list based on advise, and what I own. As an added bonus, got AB working on this stupid Vista machine

Captain of the Empire
1 Captain of the Empire
General; Hand Weapon; Pistol
1 Sword of Might
1 Armor of Meteoric Iron

State Troops
18 Swordsmen
Musician Mus; Standard Bearer Std; Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Shield
1 Duellist
Hand Weapon; Light Armor; Shield
5 [Det] Archers
Huntsmen; Hand Weapon; Bow; Scouts; Skirmishers
9 [Det] Free Company
Hand Weapon; Extra Hand Weapon

Knightly Orders
5 Knightly Orders
Musician Mus; Barding; Hand Weapon; Lance & Shield (x5); Full Plate Armor
5 Warhorse

Greatswords
14 Greatswords
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor; Stubborn
1 Count's Champion
Hand Weapon; Great Weapon; Full Plate Armor
6 [Det] Halberdiers
Hand Weapon; Halberd; Light Armor; Shield

War Engines
1 Great Cannon
Cannon
3 Crew
Hand Weapon

War Engines
1 Helstorm Rocket Battery
3 Crew
Hand Weapon

State Troops
10 Handgunners
Musician Mus; Hand Weapon; Handgun
5 [Det] Handgunners
Hand Weapon; Handgun

Total Roster Cost: 997

Created with Army Builder
Copyright (c) 1997-2006 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. All rights reserved.

Please don't post lists in the Army Builder format, they're a bore to read!

I don't need to read the equipment of your troops nor do I need to know that your list contains a 'War Machine' which is named a 'Great Cannon' which is made up of a 'Cannon' and also '3 crew' that actually carry a 'hand weapon'.

Just put down 'Cannon' or 'Great Cannon' and everybody will know what it is. And if they don't then they shouldn't be trying to give you advise!

As for the actual list, I like the way it looks now. Personally I'd add an Archer detachment to your Greatswords instead of your Swordsmen as those GS will be a priority target for shooting and magic missiles. Also, never make a Huntsmen detachment, they are only more expensive and do not benefit from the scouting rules. The detachment rules take precedence meaning that they will need to be deployed at the same time as their parent regiment at a maximum distance of 3".

Finally I'd suggest taking the Sword of Sigismund on your Captain (and simply wear Full plate and a shield). He'll be a life-saver for your GS that way as GS tend to be the ones getting charged not actually charging. Now you can minimize the amount of kills your GS suffer and make sure more of them get to hit back!

Ok, here is a question. Where should I plan on hiding my captain? I was thinking (in this incarnation of the list) that I would put him with the swordsmen, hence the archer screen. Also this would spread out my ld 8 incase i have to separate my units.

Dragonman,

Here is another 1000pt list that you might consider

As for where to hide your captain, put him in the big block of swordsmen, the greatswords are already Ld 8 so they don't need the extra Ld but the swordsmen do (wouldn't do to have your anvil run away before you can smash something on it

Anyway here's the list
Captain - Full plate, shield, Sword of Sigismund

Warrior Priest - HA, Sh, BWH, Sword of Might, Icon of Magnus

25 x swordsmen - full command
detach - 9 x halberdier (or free company I like the extra strength)
Detach - 5 archers

6 x Knights - Full command

6 x Pistoliers - Musician, Outrider w Repeater pistol

Mortar (I love the mortar, horde armies fear it, it can still do damage to good AS and it is more accurate and reliable than any other empire artillery)

Great Cannon

Total 1000pts on the button

Warrior Priest's rock! I use the icon because when I need them to charge I need them to charge, ignoring fear helps.

hope this is useful

PapaSmurf

Maybe when we graduate into using the magic phase. For now we are going without.

If you follow my advise and give him the Sword of Sigismund I'd definately put him in the Greatswords. That other infantry unit shouldn't be more than 12" away. The key to succesfull infantry is keeping a tight battle formation.

Hope I'm not to late with this, and I hope I don't parrot too much of what has already been suggested / said. So... without further ado, here is yet another story-army-review.

***** ***** ***** ***** *****

Krueger watched the hands on his pocketwatch move. They ticked along with precised, jeweled, movements. The artistry put into the watch never ceased to amaze the old engineer. For the countless time, the old man pondered going back to the dwarven port-city and buying himself a mantle clock. The Tymex clan sure knew how to make timepieces. An impatient grunt brought Krueger out of his revelry.

Krueger felt a soft hand on his shoulder, and looked over to see the Warrior Priestess Paetricia. She smiled in that calming way she always smiled and softly said, "Master Krueger, our patron is ready for our review."

The old man nodded, pulled his signature wad of notes, pushed his wire-rimmed glasses and began his review. "Sir, as per your lords request, the priestess and I have taken several days to review your army as they train and prepare for the winter campaign. If I may begin with your arms and armorments, sir?"

Waiting for the Captain to nod his approval, Krueger contined, "While I understand, that your pistol is a badge of office, enscorcled weaponry, such as your Sword of Might, will take the focus of your entire attention. If memory serves, you might not be able to use the pistol in hand-to-hand, when you wield the sword. Perhaps you could save a few silvers on shot and powder, and leave the pistol with your guard at home. Or... you could leave your magical weapon at home, and simply bring your sword and pistol. Usually, smaller patrols, such as the one you command, do not run into beasts who require magic to beat them.

"I know you prefer to fight on foot. However, if I may suggest, you might want to fight on horseback. I know the vast majority of your troops are on foot; yet, your strength of arms would allow your knight unit to be able to be a truly flanking machine. Though... that does run the risk of relying on your sergeants to keep your foot companies in line. Hmm..." pondered the old man as he ran his hand over his bald head, "...perhaps there is no good answer at this point. Unless you hire a lieutenant, or perhaps a priest, to give you a second in command. Though, where you'd get the silver for that would require a sacrifice in something."

Flipping the page, the Tilean-trained-Marienburger Engineer, continued, "Skipping ahead to your artillery train, your cannon crew and cannon are farily well trained. I would suggest, however, to leave the rockets at home for now. They are still... a bit unruley to be effective. The innaccuracy of rockets is the stuff of legends already. I have brought with me a mortar, forged by the expert gunsmiths of von Kolt and Grebbler, which would save you a number of silver in rental fees from the rockets. I understand the mortar does not cause the same damage; however, it's reliability means it'll be exploding on your enemies companies, instead of just lobbing off into a completely useless direction. I would suggest, instead, getting the more reliable mortar, and saving the silver. Or... you might even be able to use the silver you save by not hiring the rockets, and make a donation to the Church of Sigmar, and obtain the services of a priest for your upcoming campaign."

Krueger pasued for a moment here, pulled out a magnifying glass from his deep pockets, and placed it atop an elaborate set of charts and diagrams. Krueger motioned for the Captain to pick up the magnafying glass and look at the chart. "Or, to be a bit opinionated, sir, I always prefer a pair of cannon. One ranges for the other, and gives you a large amount of shock and awe. Most generals know how effective one cannon can be... but a pair of cannons often gives even the most seasoned of enemy captains a pause."

"Krueger", interjected Paetricia in her solf, almost faint, calm voice, "You're boring our sponser. Please continue."

Flipping his pages around, and collecting up his magnifying glass and charts, Krueger contined, "Yes, sorry about that, sir. I tend to ramble sometimes. Your companies of militia are a solid, formidable group. I must say, I am most impressed with your zweihanders, as well as your city-guard. I would like to offer a quick suggestion.

"Your handgunners would probably be better served with a detachment of foot soldiers... perhaps another group of free companies. I know that a handful of free company dregs won't give you much; however, it may give you that pause of time for your handgunners to get off one, well placed shot. Also, I have never been impressed with archers... huntsmen, yes, but not archers. I know that the bow is light enough to give you a modicum of movement and still be able to engage targets, but the arrows are often not enough to punch through armor, let alone the thick hides of some of the beasts that plague the empire. If I may offer, I do have a number of crossbows designed by the Tilean artificer Berretta, as well as a stock of handguns crafted by von Kolt and Grebbler. Both, in my opinion sir, would serve you better as a detachment than the archers would."

"Krueger, you're becoming long-winded again. I do appologize, sir. Our Master Engineer is thorough in his objective review of mustered soldiers. Please be patient," spoke Paetricia. Her disarming demeaner began to make the Captain a bit nervous. He had never seen any Warrior Priest be anything but a firey demagouge... and her... spring-like calm became unsettling.

Krueger stuffed another set of notes into his pocket, and spoke, "Yes, terribly sorry about that. I don't like to leave anything out, if I can avoid it. One other brief comment on your zweihanders... perhaps you could find a better detachment unit for them as well. While I understand that his excellency, Emperor Franz, has declaired the pole-axe to be the basic arms for Empire soldiers... we humans really lack the ability to use it. Perhaps you could save a few silver, leave your city-militia at home, and instead hire another squad of free company? Nine strong seems to be an optimal number for them... and that gives the unruly mobs a job as well, keeping them from becoming highwaymen."

Picking up the last page Krueger cleared his throat and finished by saying, "Your knights are a very solid troop. I have seen few to be their equals. The only suggestion I would have is that, if you insist on remaining with your troops and being on foot, perhaps seeing if you could find a donation of silver for a War Banner. The alchemists guild that I saw in town, should be able to enchant a banner with those sorceries... though it does cost a bit of silver for them to do so. Still, I have seen such magic banners empower the soldiers they guide to great feats of heroism and strength. It would definately allow your small troop of cavalry that certain... jenesequa that is always required of a cavalry charge."

Stuffing the last of his notes into his already buldging pockets, the old man nervously smiled, and waited for the inevtible questions that would follow. At least this time, Paetricia was with him. Still... Krueger wondered if von Metzger would ever come back from his adventure to Pig Barter.

"Nay, Herr Kruger, I have set to pay you no small some of silver for your thoughts, so I'll not have you apologizing for them."

"The pistol, now maybe that is a childish affectation, though if needs be, I can fight with it and this," he taps the pommel of his rondel, "though, perhaps not the wisest choice to be offering options to myself when certainty is needed."

"Unfortunately, I won't be riding with the knights. They have ridden in in response to my request for heavy horse from the temple of the graven rose, and they are in service of Morr. Loyal to Sigmar's realm though they be, they won't be letting a 'heathen' such as me ride with them."

"Funny you should mention the rocket battery. Apparently we tarried too long already, and it is no longer available for my requisitioning. It seems it rset out for Altdorf by ferry this very moment. Woe to the Engineer who authorized that transfer when I find him."

"Finally, the halberdiers and zweihanders." The Captain shrugs heavily, "Perhaps I dare trust you with some of the secrets in my dispatches. It seems my cousin, Otto, decided to proclaim some foolish nonsense about his engineering greatness, which was like fresh spit in the eye of one of our formerly friendly dwarven neighbors. So i am expecting to have to hack through gromril plate in the coming days. Worse, scouts have reported a detachment of Lizardmen encamped in the forest. So I have slotted my strongest troops together in the hopes of being able to punch through a bit of armor."


---

Ok, so it is either +1 S or +1 A depending on if i use the magic sword, or the mundane weapons. Not splendid, but it adds character.

i was going to get a Hellstorm, but someone else swiped it out before i got it at the going out of business sale. The bums.

I simply don't have a mounted captain on anything less than a gryphon right now... soon though....

And the only players I know have dwarves and Lizardmen, leaving me expecting some decently thick armor. Hence the suck-berdiers.


Thanks for the review, it was fun to respond.