Interesting Lash Question... non typical

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**theblklotus**

So my Lash prince could only see tons of vehicles and ONE independent character... thats it. The character is in range...

According to lash rules, vehicles are not an option for the lash... can I target the character as he is in range even if there is other "units... the vehicles" that are closer with the Targeting Independent character rules being what they are?

**Spellbound**

My instinct says yes you can target him, as he's the only "valid" target.

But then you'd have people with squads full of bolters that want to shoot ICs when the closest targets are AV11+ vehicles, too, and let's not set a precedent. I'd say your power's just unusable that turn due to lack of targets, but if someone wants to go get their rulebook and analyze the IC rules closer, be my guest.

-Spellbound

**Spellbound**

I might as well toss a question in here too - would any of you consider a vortex grenade marker as "impassable terrain"? Technically you can't pass through it... but as you can probably guess, in a recent apocalypse game I used the lash to march a unit of terminators into a vortex grenade and it raised some questions.

I dare say that's the most effeciently I've ever used the power, though

Go go instant character and terminator squad death!

-Spellbound

**Stelek**

You can't target a IC unless he is the closest target.

It doesn't matter if you cannot 'hurt' a Land Raider with heavy bolters (or can't Lash it), if that's all you can shoot you can choose to shoot or not, but you can't choose to shoot an IC further away just because you can't hurt the LR with heavy B's.

Hard to answer any apocalypse "questions" since they aren't official rules. Do whatever you want to, and make sure your opponents are ok with it, and above all, have fun! Like the rules suggest.

**vogelfrei**

You may not walk a unit into terrain, where it cannot go to normally, via lash. As long as you do not consider the vortex marker as impassable terrain, there is nothing against it by RAW.
RAI says no, just because a unit wouldn't commit suidice because they think your demon prince is a sexy bit**...not even if you model him/her bare breasted. Those Marines can stand the temptation. That's why they're still loyal anyway...

@Stelek:
I think he had a lot of fun vaporizing the Terminators...

**Zoned**

Another non-typical lash question...

Can I lash a unit to move it grossly out of coherency so that my opponent must spend the turn essentially scrambling just to get back into coherency? For example, I lash a unit 10", but I move half of the models to the 10" left, then the other half 10" to the right, forming a 20" gap?

**Stelek**

lol @ vogel, I think so too.

@ Zoned...great Q. RAI, no I don't think so. RAW, yes a loophole that might be, as it doesn't say much about moving enemy models in the main rulebook being subject to the movement rules. I suspect they are.

**vogelfrei**

Not even by RAW Stelek - moving units always must remain in coherency, even if moved by Lash of Submission.
It doesn't matter whose models you move.

**Stelek**

Sorry, there are no rules in RAW for moving ENEMY models. The assumption in the rules is moving your OWN units.

Since lash is supposed to f*** over other players, the RAI might be that you can move them out of coherency.

Can't use RAW for a situation didn't exist when RAW was originally written--that's the problem with not updating your rules electronically.

**vogelfrei**

pg 15 in the Rulebook:
Maintaining Coherency
[...]When you are moving a unit [...]

Nothing about who is the owner of the moved unit.
Yes it is in the 'Movement Phase' section, but that's just because normally you apply movement rules to your units in the movement phase.
They still count for Fleet and alike. And for Lash.

Movement is movement, today, tomorrow and in the 40th millenium.

**whitedragon**

The lash rules state that you may "pick" any unit in LOS. This is clearly an exception to the normal LOS and targetting restrictions.

**theblklotus**

Thx for back on top Whitedragon...

The lash is codex, thus takes precedence over the rules set in the BGB. So... since the Lash cannot, as written, target vehicles at all... not an option, for lash purposes can it be said that it can see past the vehicles into the character, if said character is the only other in range target?

**vogelfrei**

No, it's considered a shooting weapon and therefor shooting rules apply to Lash of Submission. I think this was pointed out earlier in this thread by Stelek.

And I don't see any OT posts around here. There are three different questions asked and two of them are already answered.

**whitedragon**

Uhm....Psychic rules follow the shooting rules unless stated otherwise.

The sentence in the Lash description that states you may "pick any unit" in LOS is most definetely a stated exception to the targetting rules, in much the same way as a librarian may "Pick" a target for Fury of the Ancients, or a Farseer may "Pick" a target for Mind War.

**vogelfrei**

Are you aware, that ICs are not targetable, if not nearest target?

'Pick' is the wrong word. Use 'Target power at'. As you already said, shooting rules apply.

**whitedragon**

Seriously, do you own a codex or the rulebook? The lash powers specifically says "PICK", as well as several other powers which I have already described. (Mind War and FOTA)

**MagickalMemories**

Whitedragon is right.

Any time a codex contradicts the BGB, the codex rule is applied. Nowhere in the Codex does it state that normal targeting restrictions apply. It says he can target "ANY...."

Not "any, except..."

Just "any..."

Eric

**Lorek**

Vogelfrei, please check your PMs. Thanks!

(Freebird!!)

**vogelfrei**

whitedragon wrote:Seriously, do you own a codex or the rulebook? The lash powers specifically says "PICK", as well as several other powers which I have already described. (Mind War and FOTA)

I do. Both. And as far as I know shooting rules apply to psychic powers if not stated otherwise in the specific rule.

You also 'pick' targets for shooting...nothing odd about that wording imho.

@Ironek:
I did and also wrote something about why I chose that rather provocative picture.
Might have asked before uploading. :(

**Phoenix**

Zoned wrote:Another non-typical lash question...

Can I lash a unit to move it grossly out of coherency so that my opponent must spend the turn essentially scrambling just to get back into coherency? For example, I lash a unit 10", but I move half of the models to the 10" left, then the other half 10" to the right, forming a 20" gap?

I brought that one up a while ago. The basic response was that since you can't leagely move a unit out of coherency in normal movement, you can't do it with lash movement either.

**skullhammer75**

Go and lash the ic as you can pick any target and even if not you dont have to shoot vehicals they can be ignored.

**Negativemoney**

By RAW you will be able to select that IC. The Lash rules are very clear that you must "Pick a non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the Psyker". This is a clear exception to the shooting rules as it states that you may not select a vehicle to be effected by the ability.

If you could not target the IC then you would also need to start taking target priority to effect any unit beyond the closest.

RAW states Pick not Target, this is a clear exception to the standard rules for shooting.