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I've been speculating with some friends how a mech Eldar army should be built if Harlequins suddenly sucked, or if you weren't allowed to use them. This list is built on top of my old list and the existing models and units. I can't really see it having any real weaknesses in 1.5K, the only challenging matchup being Orks. Against Orks the key would be just to focus all of the firepower in one area of the table and block reinforcements with tanks. The only thing I'm a little doubtful about is the Shining Spears. They strike 8 times at S6 in close combat but only have WS4. For the same price I could get an Autarch that strikes 6 times at S6 but with WS6 I6, shoots with a meltagun before going in, and is untargetable most of the time. Alternatively I could just as well get a fourth Destrolock squad. Basically, give suggestions on how I should spend the last 140-160 points of the list that the Shining Spears are now occupying.

HQ:

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask

Elites:

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Heavy Flamer

6 Fire Dragons

6 Fire Dragons

Troops:

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

Fast Attack:

4 Shining Spears

Heavy Support:

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total Points: 1500p

I play a similar list, but never without a squad of Harlies,
and my Harlies always performed admirable.
(Well, once in a tourney, they charged Genestealers and killed 2, from 24 S4 rending attacks).
If you face units in hard cover (4+), then all your shooting weapons might bounce off.
Then Harlies can do the job.

Meh. Fire Dragons will be much tougher to use because you lack the veil and 'hide in cc' protection that harlies have. You may just be better off running the 'other' CC options Eldar have.

If your running spears you need a Farseer with guide and fortune imo. Their effectiveness just skyrockets when one is around.

Personally I think its more fun to speculate what would happen if holofields no longer existed.

Personally I think its more fun to speculate what would happen if holofields no longer existed.

That may be, but when holo-fields no longer exist I will ebay my Eldar.

I don't like the Shining Spears. They need the Exarch with Withdraw skill to be any good, and then they're simply way, way too expensive for what they do. Anyway, I wouldn't want this to turn into another thread where I whine about the Eldar codex, but fact just is that most of the units are drastically underpowered. For example, Dire Avengers are supposed to be this great anti-horde unit, but they are easily outclassed by Shoota Boyz, Fire Warriors etc on a point by point basis. Shining Spears should have A2 in their profile for their cost. Striking Scorpions would need a S8 power fist and fleet of foot. Howling Banshees would need a re-roll to hit or to wound to justify their fragility, since assaulting from transports isn't as easy as it used to be in 3rd ed. Warp Spider Death Spinners should be something like S4 AP- flamer template weapons that are AP1 on a wound roll of 6. War Walkers should be fast attack and vehicles chosen as squadrons should be able to operate independently. Wraithlords shouldn't be blind. Swooping Hawks should cost 6 points less per model unless the stats and weaponry are changed. Vypers shouldn't be open topped. Starcannon should be assault 3. Dark Reapers should have a 2+ armour save.

It's just incredibly frustrating to try to expand my Eldar army when everything but bikes, Dragons, Harlies and tanks are absolute garbage. So yeah like I said, when holo-fields no longer exist and you got 2000$ extra lying around I'll sell you my Eldar models.

If you're curious why I would make a thread about not being able to use Harlequins, the reason is the rumoured 5th edition nerf to rending. Harlequins won't be worth their salt anymore after that. Of course it's still quite possible that skimmers won't either.

Whens 5th due?

Merik wrote:Whens 5th due?

Next summer.

The rumour says that rending works differently: Roll 6 to wound, no longer to hit.
Okay, 6 Harlies with 6 kisses, 24 attacks on the charge.
4th ed: 4 rending hits.
5th ed vs Marines: 16 hits on 3+, 2.66 rending wounds.

wuestenfux wrote:The rumour says that rending works differently: Roll 6 to wound, no longer to hit.
Okay, 6 Harlies with 6 kisses, 24 attacks on the charge.
4th ed: 4 rending hits.
5th ed vs Marines: 16 hits on 3+, 2.66 rending wounds.

...and when you fight against targets with WS5 or more, you only get 2 rending hits (as opposed to 4 now), which in turn means that Harlequins won't be worth the high price anymore since they aren't killy enough. An Ork Nob with a Slugga and a Power Klaw (41p) will cause the same amount of damage to a Hive Tyrant as 6 Harlequins with Kisses (132p/162p).

It's just incredibly frustrating to try to expand my Eldar army when everything but bikes, Dragons, Harlies and tanks are absolute garbage.

That's true. But Jetbikes are very fragile. I take Pathfinders to keep the enemy infiltrators away from my tanks. I decided to take a Seer Council on jetbike. Just for versatility.

With Warp Spiders I often do crazy things, like moving through the middle of an advancing Nids army: Move 12'' shoot the Warriors and advancing 2D6'' into cover. They get charged and eventually withdraw. My opponent went nuts...

I see no reason to buy anything but another autarch with those shining spears.

More jetbikes would be the only other consideration, since another heavy flamer would be good extra Ork defense.

There's zero reason to start buying assault units in the Eldar dex until you're filled with Autarchs, since they are so much better than everything else for the points due to being untargetable and uber fast.

(Except Harlequins of course).

i actually think scorpions are perfectly decent units. there's just no reason to use them with harlies around. fleet would definitely help them out a lot though.

I see no reason to buy anything but another autarch with those shining spears.

I agree with you. So I drop the Shining Spears, and add an Autarch with bike, lance, fusion gun and mandiblasters. This list won't have much trouble with Zilla Nids or twin Lash Obliterator spam Chaos, or basically any kind of Marines or Necrons. This already means it's going to do well in most tournaments. Ork armies are tougher especially if they don't have a lot of expensive elite troops, but I can always go for a draw or a minor victory against them. It's probably not as good as Harlequin lists, and that's why most people use two squads of them, but it's nice to know that it's somewhat possible to play competitively without them. However, nerf/remove one more unit in addition to the Harlequins, for example Fire Dragons or Falcons, and the Eldar won't be tournament capable any longer.

HQ:

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

Elites:

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer

6 Fire Dragons

6 Fire Dragons

Troops:

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

Heavy Support:

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total: 1500p

Scorpions seem fairly decent if you expect to face a bunch of footslogging Orks. I do agree that they really need fleet of foot though.

If scorps had fleet of foot they would rival Harlies for kings of the HtH heap. 3+ saves and a hidden power claw are nothing to sneeze at.

Therion wrote:

I see no reason to buy anything but another autarch with those shining spears.

I agree with you. So I drop the Shining Spears, and add an Autarch with bike, lance, fusion gun and mandiblasters. This list won't have much trouble with Zilla Nids or twin Lash Obliterator spam Chaos, or basically any kind of Marines or Necrons. This already means it's going to do well in most tournaments. Ork armies are tougher especially if they don't have a lot of expensive elite troops, but I can always go for a draw or a minor victory against them. It's probably not as good as Harlequin lists, and that's why most people use two squads of them, but it's nice to know that it's somewhat possible to play competitively without them. However, nerf/remove one more unit in addition to the Harlequins, for example Fire Dragons or Falcons, and the Eldar won't be tournament capable any longer.

HQ:

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Banshee Mask

Autarch
Eldar Jetbike, Laser Lance, Fusion Gun, Mandiblasters

Elites:

6 Fire Dragons
Exarch, Dragon's Breath Flamer

6 Fire Dragons

6 Fire Dragons

Troops:

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

3 Jetbikes
1 Warlock, Singing Spear, Destructor

Heavy Support:

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Falcon
Shuriken Cannon, Vectored Engines, Holo-Fields, Spirit Stones

Total: 1500p

I think the question here is what are you going to do vs. Godzilla lists? At 1500 you shouldn't have to face a full on Gaunt-Screen for all the TMC's, but the fact is that the Devourers and Gun Fex's can put a hurt on the Skimmers if the rumored stuff in 5th comes in and nerfs them down. Even considering that the Falcons may be able to pull off an "always glancing" if they move over 12" in 5th, you still don't really have anything that can kill all the TMC's in a normal Godzilla list, and if they pop down a few units of yours it could be game right there.

Sure the Autarch(s) could down a Fex, but any Nid player will have counter assault and the sad part is that if the Autarch gets counter charged even by a good squad of Gaunts he'll die in attrition. At least Spears can hit and run, but you're right in terms of sheer damage output an Autarch does the same job but cheaper.

I really guess a lot of it is going to come down to the idea of how much Eldar gets nerfed come 5th ed. I figure if the Holofield lists go away then it'll be back to seer councils, except this time on Bikes maybe with Fortuned bikes everywhere to get the job done and deny VP's.

I think the question here is what are you going to do vs. Godzilla lists?

Look at the amount of meltaguns. If I suffer minimal casualties on the advance like usual, I drop down 4 monstrous creatures (Autarchs assault Carnifexes that got 1 or 2 wounds remaining) and two squads of Gaunts or Stealers when I make my move. The strategy is no different with this army against nids than it is with Harlequins inside the Falcons. If anything, it's harder for the Tyranid player to do anything about the initial onslaught. The only way to win against anything with this Eldar army is to destroy everything in one portion of the field so that I don't lose all my models on the counter assault.

but the fact is that the Devourers and Gun Fex's can put a hurt on the Skimmers if the rumored stuff in 5th comes in and nerfs them down.

Well that's a whole different story. If vehicles are removed from 40K tournament games altogether then of course Nids will have an easier time than ever before against a lot of armies. Isn't it fun that when tanks (Carnifexes, Tyrants) and skimmers (Deffkoptas) with a toughness value and wounds are a lot more powerful than real vehicles with armour values, they decide to nerf the vehicles with armour values.

Well, your army has lots of fusion guns.
Thus, you could give the Autarchs reaper launchers (mine rides a Vyper with a mounted missile launcher as an uber reaper-launcher).
They are more effective at longer range.

Consider this perhaps? Ignore skimmers and go for a relatively fast moving MSU horde type approach.

2 x autarch (fusion gun, jetbike, laser lance... 6 attacks)
3 x 6 harlequins with kisses and seers
2 x 5 pathfinders
2 x 5 shining spears
1 x 4 shinning spears

Even with the rending nerf and assuming of course that skimmers get nerfed, you concentrate on h2h. There's enough attacks in this list to drop 35 marines, assuming you don't shoot any beforehand. At 1500 thats pretty nifty. No clue about orcs.... lol maybe game over for eldar. Maybe this idea sucks.