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So do you think we'll see alot of orks this year? And of what we do see, will it do well?

I think people are excited about them, but I think that alot of people that would like to play them won't get around to painting them. And alot of peole that have them aren't the uber competitive types.

Still, I think we'll see a few sprinkled in the top placings.

I think you will see a lot of dipped and dry bushed green hordes (nothing that will get over a 25 in painting) that will be compeditive. There will be some people that will try to cling on to the cult of speed idea for their lists. Those will have about Trucks a battle wagon and some smaller vehicles.

All in all I think there will be at least 2 or 3 nicely painted foot slogging hordes that will just be to large for most armies to deal with.

Given that the GW GTs are all going to be alteast 9 months from now I would expect to see some there. Adepticon might be a push but there will be atleast 1 solid Ork list at it.

I think that in spite of the new codex, they still suffer from the major problem that they did before.

Moving 150+ models in 2 hours.


Speed Freaks are definately weaker now. The trukks are more resilient, but the boyz in the trukk are so much weaker. Even with the extra two boyz, the loss of the squad burna, and the fact that we always strike after MEQs now, instead of simultaneously, means that 12 boyz really don't have the ability to take on the same things they used to. The loss of a S4 mob at a reasonable price (not Nobs) hurts too, as does the ability to field small units with 3 heavy weapons.

I've played a few games with new orks in trukks, and I repeatedly encounter the same problem; we get a charge by just a little bit, only to have our killzone cleared before we swing - or with only a couple of boyz left - and then lose the combat and run. Under the prior edition, I'd engage, and swinging simultaneously, would generally account for as many as I'd lose, if not more. Also, the removal of choppas means that we start losing more after the first round. And, whereas before, I could get a free rally once I made it back to my trukk, that's no longer possible. I cannot count the number of times I'd have a nob and one or two boyz get back in their trukk, only to return to the fight and drop a squad (or a carnifex). Now, once you drop below seven orks, forget it.

Furthermore, the loss of good anti-tank options (zzap-gun trukks), and the inability to pad the roster with buggies makes the list, as a whole, quite a bit weaker.

Things I've lost from my adepticon list from last year (not including things with close similarities):

Burnas from all trukk squads
Skar boyz
Small units of 'ard boyz w/ 3 big shootas
Buggies as Troops
Looted Russ (note range)
2 zzap-gun guntrukks

I'm intrigued by the trukk with wrecking ball. After dropping on it's cargo, it can zoom around and swat vehicles with a str 9 weapon that hits on a 4+. 1-2 might not survive, unless you have a bazillion different units of stuff all moving at the enemy, but 4-5 of them will insure a few survive the first couple of turns. After that, the enemy will be fully engaged up and down the lines with Orks in combat or just about to be in combat. This will make the Trukks seem relatively insignificant and they will be free to try and pop vehicles.

mauleed wrote:So do you think we'll see alot of orks this year?

Yes

And of what we do see, will it do well?

Yes

I think people are excited about them, but I think that alot of people that would like to play them won't get around to painting them.

Well, you can dip them, or dry brush them so I think that painting will stop them. Since they will do well at tournaments there is a lot of incentive to get them painted.

And alot of peole that have them aren't the uber competitive types.

I don't think that will matter. The Orks are a lot like Godzilla nids where the army almost runs itself. You just run forward while shooting and you will do well.

Still, I think we'll see a few sprinkled in the top placings.

Perhaps. There are a few problems with the army. The first one is how many turns they will get in on most games. If you are running a horde, you have to move fast, or you will only get to turn #3 (after thinking about it, now that they are shooty, that might not be a bad thing). Also paint scores are such a huge part of GT scoring that might slow them down some. For the most part though, I think the top players will be able to counter the OrKs.

Price and painting are the biggest obstacle. A box of boyz went from 16 in a box to 10. There are a lot of new models that people want and horde lists will cost a bundle. That will be the biggest obstacle to getting an Ork army.

Playing them will be another problem. As Blackmoor said, it will be hard for Orks to see turn 5. Match up against a Monolith/Orb Necron list and you might only get to turn 3 with no clear winner.

You need to win big and win fast. It will be tough for Orks to win fast.

Thats why I to think you will see Kult of speed variants, less model count and they do make for a quicker game as everything moves all out toward the enemy.

Lemartes wrote:Thats why I to think you will see Kult of speed variants, less model count and they do make for a quicker game as everything moves all out toward the enemy.

You could be right about that. I think Zero Cool has a list built around your premise a little down the forum threads. Trukks and Wagons and a Kopta. That list would play quickly enough to finish 6 turns.

DarthDiggler wrote:Price and painting are the biggest obstacle. A box of boyz went from 16 in a box to 10. There are a lot of new models that people want and horde lists will cost a bundle. That will be the biggest obstacle to getting an Ork army.

Price? 16 boys for $35 is $2.19 per fig.

11 boys for $22 is $2 per, and you get all the stuff to make nobs and heavy weapons.

Interesting to know; it's actually less money per model. I like the new plastic weapons and bits with the updated Ork sprues. The plastic Powerklaws are very nice.

Personally, I'll be fielding an Ork army for whatever GT's/Indies I can attend. My Eldar will stay on the shelf for 2008.

I've found the Ork boyz are surprisingly easy to paint. As an average, 30 minutes or less per Boy; one to two highlights and no drybrushing or dipping. (and not black as a major color)

But, the prospect of painting 100+ models for a single army is a bit daunting...

Now that I think about it some, I think the Orks will do well for a couple of reasons.

The first is to do well you need to get a big VP differential. It is hard to get a lot of VPs off of Orks. With a cheap horde army you can kill a million of them, and if the squad still has a couple left, it will only give up half VPs.

The other thing that they have going for them is that the strongest defense against them, is a liability in most missions. As you can see from most people playing against Tyranids that the best defense is sitting on the back of the board as far away from the Orks as possible. When that happens, it is hard to get table quarters, objectives, and forget about getting into the enemies deployment zone.

The opposite is true of the Orks. They have a ton of units to hold objectives, and most of them will end up in the enemy deployment zone.

So Orks will either win big, or lose small.

So after a bit of consideration, they might do well after all.

This new Ork codex is really making me reconsider what army to take to the GT's this year. I was either going to bring my Tyranids or Eldar, but neither is a favorable matchup against Ork hordes. If, Orks become a popular choice for the GT season, I will have to consider playing my SAFH marines. They seem to have a very favorable matchup against hordes with the incredible volume of AP 4-5.

Darrian

I'll be taking Orks..kind of. Now that GW has nuked LatD, the best "counts as" list in the game, I'll be fielding my Genestealer Cult as Orks. It'll probably be KoS-y, though, as the cost of acquiring 60 more metal hybrids is too high. I've spent a crapload on this army as is...

Eldar against footslogging Orks is about as good a matchup as you can hope for, fellas.

Unlike everyone else [except Dark Eldar], you can easily refuse flank a Ork horde--and honestly, they won't catch you.

Problem is, in objective based missions...it's gonna be hard to kill off 80-100 Orks AND take the objectives. Table quarters...forget it unless you are willing to roll the dice with your whole army and hope you don't lose in an assault.

I don't know what your Eldar build is, but they will have trouble with Orks.

A lot of times Eldar will have trouble putting out a lot of firepower to slow them down.

Harlequins will get swarmed under, and Lootas will drop skimmers from the sky.

Yea, if I were going to field a foot slogging horde against eldar, I would try to avoid giving you the option to refuse a flank by trying to center my ridiculously large army. Assuming an objective or table quarter game, I just don't see how the Eldar can kill enough to keep themselves from running out of places to go.

I think Orks are going to be a very hard match up for Eldar, an army that seems to do best against smaller elite armies and horde armies who hate melee. But then I probably don't understand Eldar enough. I don't play against them much.

No Wehrkind, I think you have it dead on. My fully Mech Eldar army has had a bitch of a time with Ork hordes the 2 times I faced them. There is simply not enough volume of fire to stop them. Most GT missions have objectives and it is near impossible to keep them off, let alone push them off objectives. I was lucky to get a minor win and a draw against 3rd ed Orks. 4th ed will be an absolute nightmare.

Maybe Stelek just knows more about the game than the rest of us, but I do not like the matchup.

Darrian

Price? 16 boys for $35 is $2.19 per fig.

11 boys for $22 is $2 per, and you get all the stuff to make nobs and heavy weapons.

Wow, was gonna correct you cause I was told they retailed for 30 at the FLGS but sure enough they are 22 on the online store. That isn't a bad deal at all.

Even better, you could get fantasy orcs and use both shoota and slugga arms (probably convert the sluggas to stormboyz for those that want only shoota mobs).

Why oh why did I start a genestealer army? :(

I think for the first couple of GT's we will see a lot ork armies because people are excited about them but may not know how to play them well. SO they may drop them after that.
I will be bringing them even though I am going to build a necron army for 2008. THere will probably be Zagstruck and the Vulcha boyz in most armies since they can deep strike 20 orks. Also the kammondo boss that can infiltrate from any side of the board. You will also see a lot of Nob mobs since they can be loaded into a truck and rip apart stuff fairly easy. Take a warboss and I believe they are counted as troops.

I'm thinking we're going to see *lots* of Orks. And I think they're going to do well. I think Orks will have to mechanize around non-Dedicated Transports and throwaway Dedicated Transports to speed up play, assuming there's some kind of actual penalty if turns can't be finished. Otherwise, if massed Orks end up only playing 4 turns, that's probably OK aslong as it's even ups.

You'll see them, recently released armies generally make a big appearance. I remember at the Toronto GT after the 3rd ed Chaos codex was released I played 3 Chaos players, with many more filling out the general attendance. Doesn't hurt that the new models are pretty great overall, and everyone loves Orks.

I don't think we'll see too many of your crazy horde lists though, logistically speaking I think it's just kind of crazy. Even if your movement tray idea works, which I'll believe when I see, it's still a lot to move and a lot of dice to roll, never mind the material and time cost of actually buying, assembling, and painting 150ish models. It's a strong army concept, but I have a hard time believing that enough people will play it to make a big impact.

@JohnHwang, regarding your transport idea, wont that make the unit sizes pretty small by Ork standards? I am not afraid of units that I can easily whittle down to less than 10, it's the 30 ork units that scare the hell out of me.

Darrian

Darrian13 wrote:@JohnHwang, regarding your transport idea, wont that make the unit sizes pretty small by Ork standards? I am not afraid of units that I can easily whittle down to less than 10, it's the 30 ork units that scare the hell out of me.

Darrian

Exactly. Ork hordes are scary in their huge mobs. I'd be more afraid of 2 30 man mobs, then 6 ten man mobs.

I think the time limit thing that people have mentioned will be the biggest detractor to orks in tournies. From my experience against the new book, the most effective list will be huge mobs, but that will be hurtful when your cut for time.

If folks aren't familiar with their army or are just slow players, then I agree that time can be a big factor. The time limit, however, was 2 1/2 hours per game (for Baltimore at least) and I never had a game go the time limit.

One of my games was against a Tyranid horde army running 150 models. I typically had 20-30 minutes left by the time the game was finished.

The codex is generating some excitement, appears to have some good builds and can be competitive. Hell, the overall GT winner in Baltimore used Chaos (newest codex), so anything's possible.

Orks are cheap enough that they can take some number of transports *and* have good numbers of Boyz. If they "only" bring 100 Boyz, that won't be enough to get the job done if backed by some well-chosen toys?

It's not like Orks need to fully-mechanize or go full-slog. A mixed approach revolving around a couple full-sizemobs as an Anvil smack dab in the center of the board are still going to be tough to shift. But being able to support with a bunch of skirmishers and a few mobile Hammers wouldn't be a bad play concept.

OK. I see that. I was just thinking that you meant a speedfreaks kind of army.

@Sarigar, Pete Elias is a hell of a good player and the new Chaos codex is a very strong codex. Him winning Baltimore is no suprise. Besides, those were Mikes chaos models so you know his paint score was 35.

Darrian

Any rumors of a second wave of Orky releases? There's not an official GW model for about half the codex, which seems to go against their current policy of 'every army is supported'. No buggies, battlewagon, looted wagon, flash gitz, several special characters are missing. And, some of the boxes don't expand into a squad very well. Kommandoes come 5 to a box including a nob. What, do I buy 3 boxes, two blisters of weapons, and then have 2 nobz left over? Tankbustas and Lootas are worse since they don't have any blisters available. Tankbustas include a nob in a box of 5, and lootas have a mek according to rumors, which means you need 4 boxes of each and have leftover figs. And no plastic warboss kit?

Some things just beg to be scratchbuilt, looted wagons and battlewagons, and I plan to dust off several. But it'd be nice to know the developers intended size. Is it the size of an old ork trukk (unlikely)? Is it a landraider-size, rhino, chimera, etc.?

Rumor is that plastic stormboyz might come out with Codex: Planetfall/Orbital Assault/etc. I haven't heard any other rumors.

In a way it might be beneficial for orks to have shorter games, assuming they can get extra Waagh moves to ensure they are in combat on turn two at the latest. Given their extremely low points/wound ratio, it might be possible for them to swam objectives and hack into opponants, causing a sharp loss in victory points, and then have the game end before the opponant has enough time to kill their points back.
Given, this might not be much of a problem as some have pointed out, and I would be a sad panda if my opponant screwed around moving his models slowly to cut down on turns, but I could see it coming up here and again.

Darrian13: I agree he is a good player. One would need to be. I believe the consensus is that Chaos is not a top tier army when compared to Mech Eldar and Godzilla; this is really my point. I think there will competitive Ork armies that can place and I think a 30-35 paint score will not be unheard of for an Ork army.

@Wehrkind - if someone is deliberately playing slow, that's a Sportsmanship issue, and I'd call a Referee on him.