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Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I've been reading rumours of a combined Inquisition codex combining the rules for all three codices in one book. I wonder if this will be possible using the current codex format (no wargear etc.) without stripping much of the flavour from the existing rules.

Which units (if any) do you think will be removed from such a rulebook?

Which wargear and options do you think will survive the 'no wargear' format and in what form?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/01/03 22:44:32


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

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It would be easier to write a combined =I= Codex with the current layout.
Look at C:WH - that wargear section is a mess and actually everyone uses the same items. Every time. Because there's so much crap in it.

It would be a bit like the C:CSM HQ section, with special characters and options for Inquisitors wich would make them demonhuntery or radical...like choosing a weapon out of a list...maybe a demon sword or holy stiletto ov His grace or...or it's a bit like the Chaos Lord entry...never know, but I'm really looking forward to that Codex and hope it will be released right after Codexaemons.

On the topic 'Wich bases are supplied with my Terminators and how could I abuse it'...after turning into a debate on english language and the meaning of the word 'supply'.
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Everything that comes in the box is "accompanying" everything else that comes in the box. When you buy a Happy Meal from McD's, no one expects you to dunk the toy in the sauce, but it doesn't mean the toy wasn't "supplied with" it.
 
   
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Denver

I would anticipate that must units would remain. So Elites would have some kind of Inquisitor entry, Assassins, GK Terminators, Celestians, Repentia, Arco-Flagellants, etc. Troops would be Sisters, Grey Knights, and Stormtroopers. Heavy Support would have Purgation and Retributor squads, etc. So generally unit selections would stay the same. I would think that the Faith and Grey Knights rules could be maintained separately in the same book without too many problems.

If they wanted to include Deathwatch, I would see it as either its own separate choice or as an entry with unique upgrades for an allied choice from C:SM.

I could also seem some choices being restricted based upon certain composition choices, similar to those currently in the allies system: so you couldn't bring Exorcists unless you had 2+ Sisters troop choices, etc.

The biggest question mark, to me, would be how to handle distinguishing Inquisitors-would they have separate wargear lists, separate retinue lists, separate abilities, etc., or would these be merged? Same for psychic powers.

With Armory removal, I think a number of items would be lost or incorporated into the affected unit's basic stats/options (Grimore of True Names, Book of St. Lucius, the Cloak, Blessed Weapon, the Tarots) with a significant reduction in stand-alone choices.

One the whole I don't think many models would be invalidated outright, and armies could still be played similar in composition to their 4th ed incarnations, but there would also be room for some radically different builds.

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Decrepit Dakkanaut






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I think it is likely to see a combined Inquisition Codex - it's how GW thinks of the models and units, so it's what will likely come out. Clearly, they are too small to sell or support as stand-alone forces. With the vast overlap, there's no reason why they can't share things.

I wouldn't expect to see units removed - there's nothing that cries out for removal.

I'd expect to see:

- Wargear trimmed mercilessly - only weapons and armor remain.

- DH & WH Inquisitor Lord & Inquisitor merged into a HQ Inquisitor, freeing up the Elite slot. He will have awesome options, like a Chaos Lord, but he will still be a S3 T3 dude.

- Removal of Priest requirement for various units.

- Assassins stay as Elites, but simplified.

- Non-Scoring Arco-Flagellants & Daemonhosts not to take a FOC slot

- All GK as Elite, but PA GK as Troops if GK Captain is taken.

- Sisters to be as-is, but Faith to be simplified to give USRs Fleet, FNP or Rending similar to a Chaos Icon bearer. Removal of Dominions (filler unit, merge into Celestians)

- Deathwatch added as Elite.

- Allies in some form, very limited and more restricted.

- removal of Adversaries rules and scenarios, which were just filler.

So:
HQ
- GK Captain Stern
- SoB Celestine
- Inq Karamazov

- SoB Cannoness
- Inq. Lord (Malleus / Sicarus / Hereticus / Xenos / ...)

Elite
- GK Termies
- GK PA
- DW Marines
- SoB Celestians
- Imp. Assassins
- Death Cult Assassins
- Daemonhosts
- Arcoflagellants
- Repentia

Troops
- Sisters
- Stormtroopers

Transport
- Rhino
- Drop Pod (GK, DW)
- Chimera (Storms)
- Immolator (SoB)
- Land Raider (Inq, GK Termies)

Fast
- Seraphim

Heavy
- GK Dread
- Exorcist
- Retributors
- Penitent Engine / War Engine / Imp. Robot
- Orbital Strike

   
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Alpharius Walks wrote:The biggest question mark, to me, would be how to handle distinguishing Inquisitors-would they have separate wargear lists, separate retinue lists, separate abilities, etc., or would these be merged?

That's easy - Ordos become like Chaos Marks: Malleus has Artificer; Hereticus has Rosarius; etc.

   
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Were I to do an Inq codex, I would do something like:

HQ:
Inq Lord - allows Heretical units to be taken
GK Hero - allows GK units to be taken
Sororitas Hero - allows AS units to be taken
DW Librarian - allows DW units to be taken

Elites:
Inq
Death Cult Assassins
Temple Assassins

Troops:
Inq Stormtroopers

Fast:
none

Heavy:
Orbital Strike

... and the standard Inducted Guard / Allied Marines

Heretical Units - precludes GK Units
HQ - Priest
Elite - Arco-flagellants, Daemonhost
FA - summoned Daemons
HS - Penitent Engines

GK Units - precludes Allied Marines and Heretical Units
HQ/Elite - GK Termies
Troops - GK
FA - GK Teleport
HS - LR, GK Dread, Purgation

AS Units - precludes Allied Marines
HQ/Elite - Celestians
Troops - Battle Sisters, Dominions
FA - Seraphim
HS - Exorcist, Retributors

DW Units - precludes Allied Marines
HQ/Elite - DeathWatch (as we now know them)
Troops - watered down version of DW
FA - Landspeeder
HS - LR, DW Dread

It's a lot, but the use of heros/hq to take the differing unit types would work out best, i think.

 
   
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Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

I can see the Space Marine and Imperial Guard options along with the option to ally units in other forces being dropped completely as allies are now the domain of Apocalypse.

RE: JohnHwangDD

HQ: I think GK Captain will remain as well as Stern. I don't think Sicarus will be added and Death-watch will Remain HQ. The type of HQ's you take will determine the Troops you can take (e.g. GK captain allows GK Marines as troops).

No slot: Priests, Daemonhosts

Elites: I think Daemonhosts will be dropped or put into an appendix. Arco-flagellants and Repentia could be merged into one unit type.

Troops: DW Marines will be Troops (see HQ).

Transport: I don't think GK will get Drop Pods.

Fast: GK Marines, Seraphim

Heavy support: I don't think robots and war machines will be in the list. Penitent Engines should have their survivability improved.

I'd like to see Storm troopers gain the Imperial Guard Storm trooper stat line (free Frag and Krak) and be fielded in platoons like Imperial Guard Infantry Squads.

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George Spiggott wrote:I can see the Space Marine and Imperial Guard options along with the option to ally units in other forces being dropped completely as allies are now the domain of Apocalypse.

HQ: I think GK Captain will remain as well as Stern. I don't think Sicarus will be added and Death-watch will Remain HQ. The type of HQ's you take will determine the Troops you can take (e.g. GK captain allows GK Marines as troops).

Elites: I think Daemonhosts will be dropped or put into an appendix. Arco-flagellants and Repentia could be merged into one unit type.

Troops: DW Marines will be Troops (see HQ).

Transport: I don't think GK will get Drop Pods.

Fast: GK Marines, Seraphim

Heavy support: I don't think robots and war machines will be in the list. Penitent Engines should have their survivability improved.

I'd like to see Storm troopers gain the Imperial Guard Storm trooper stat line (free Frag and Krak) and be fielded in platoons like Imperial Guard Infantry Squads.

I could see Allies being streamlined as 1 HQ, 0-1 Elite, 1-2 Troops, 0-1 Fast, 0-1 Heavy going either direction (Inq adding SM / IG, or SM / IG adding Inq). This forces the focus on the main list and limits the presence of other stuff. More importantly, it gets away from having to name specific units or make restrictions.

I suggest only Captain Stern because there isn't a generic Captain model, and GK Captains are so rare as to be treated as SCs.

Sicarus, etc. are just for flavor, to get a statline bonus or USR. It's no big deal. Deathwatch can be fielded in some numbers, and it's OK to overload Elites to force players to choose among competing options. Besides, if you lose the Elite Inquisitor (which makes no sense), it makes a nice slot for Deathwatch.

Death Cultists / Daemonhosts / Arco-flagellants / Repentia are all slightly different and have slightly different rules. They could all be merged, with an option to buy Power Weapons / Armor / Inv. Save / USR or whatever based on type, kind of like a Chaos Mark.

DW Marines are much too rare to be Troops. There are probably 10x Storms per Sister, and 10x Sist ers per Space Marine. DW start as Space Marines, so they cannot be Troops. If you look at the OOB for Armageddon, there were lots of Companies from SM Chapters, but only a few DW Kill Teams.

I suppose GK could gain always Deep Strike as a basic rule - they're expensive enough for it, but I can't see them as Fast - that was a filler unit to create a Fast item, just like Dominions and Purgation. In a merged book, filler units disappear.

Penitent Engines should be kinda like Killer Kans, in little squadrons of 1-3 models of "lite beer" Dreads. With a few weapon options to add flexibility, they can be fielded as RT-era Imperial Robots or whatever the player wants to call them.

Sure, Storms can gain Frag & Krak - not that grenades are their main problem... They need a S4 gun.

   
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stjohn70 wrote:Were I to do an Inq codex, I would do something like:

HQ:
Inq Lord - allows Heretical units to be taken
GK Hero - allows GK units to be taken
Sororitas Hero - allows AS units to be taken
DW Librarian - allows DW units to be taken


This system is pretty cool! I'd buy that codex.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Sheffield, UK

RE: JohnHwangDD

Allies were the most filler of filler units; I really don't see any place for them anymore. Good point about Stern I agree with you now. I never thought of reworking Death Cultists as a small unit to make them fit with Repentia/Arcoflagellants, good idea. I don't think Daemonhosts fit into this, I really do see them as being quite separate as they're the only exclusively radical unit in the book.

Deathwatch already are Troops, if you have to field Stern to take them they're hardly common. I would not suggest that DW be anything other than HQ as they are now (with the option to be Combat Squads). All GK gaining Deep Strike seems reasonable.

Fair point about Dominions and Purgation squads but I see their survival as being more likely than IG and SM in this book even if they’re only an option for an existing squad (e.g. 0-1 unit may take more heavy weapons and counts as Heavy Support).

Penitent Engines are already fielded in units; they need a fluff reason to lose the Open-topped rule so they're more survivable.

Storm troopers with Str 4 guns? That’s a bit controversial; you'll never get anyone to agree with that.

I see the list being something like this now.

HQ
Inquisitor (All types) (Allows Storm troopers Orbital Strike and Assassins)
Stern ( Allows GK Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support)
Cannoness (Allows SoB Troops, Fast Attack and Heavy Support)
Deathwatch Kill Team

No Slot Required
Priest (Allows Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines)

Elites
GK Term
Temple Assassin
Death Cult Assassins / Repentia / Arco-flagellants (Different HQ's (Inquisitor, Cannoness & Priest) allow different upgrades)
Celestians
Daemonhost (Disallows all GK, DW and SoB models)

Troops
Storm trooper Platoon
GK Marines
SoB Troops

Fast
Seraphim
Grey Knights

Transport
As current codices

Support
GK Vehicles
SoB Vehicles
GK / SoB Heavy Squads
Penitent Engines
Orbital Strike

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/01/04 01:23:36


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Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you go back to RT / 2nd Edition, almost of the "classic" stuff would have been taken in as Imperial Allies: Inquisitors, Assassins, Grey Knights. Sisters are the only real stand-alone army, and they would have taken Storms & Guard for bulk. So I think Allies belongs. The mono-Codex concept means that you don't *need* another book to play your army. But that doesn't rule out the option to play a combined force.

Daemonhosts being the only Radical option is a problem because it makes it hard to field a Radical army. Radical vs Puritan vs hyper-Puritan should be a Fluff distinction, not rules, as it depends entirely on one's POV. Folding them in to one big pile allows for more play options. If someone wants to model up Chrono-Gladiators following the Repentia rules, why shouldn't that be allowed? If someone wants a Cyber-Daemonhost as some kind of Puritan Ghost-in-the-Machine, why not? It wouldn't be unbalancing.

I think you had a typo on DW being Troops, intending GK. I was intending basic GK as Elites, but available under a GK Captain - presumably, he's bringing his own retinue / company.

WRT Dominions & Purgation, I just think they add very little to the playability, whereas IG & SM would add a lot more.

For 1 pt less than a Sister, a Stormtrooper loses Faith, Power Armour, and Bolter in exchange for Carapace, AP5 Flashlight. And the option to buy a hugely overpriced Chimera. Or dual Grenade Launchers instead of Flamer & Heavy Flamer? That is an absolutely *terrible* exchange, the very definition of "penny-wise, pound-foolish". At the very least, Stormtroopers can be given a "counts as" Bolter and Grenades. Tacking on Deep Strike wouldn't hurt, either.

   
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Sheffield, UK

I think allies have no place in a GK or SoB force; when you take into account the lack of choices for a radical Inquisitor (i.e. no GK, DW or SoB) then maybe allies have merit just to fill out the radical list.

Dominions & Purgation are such a non-issue as they're just extra heavy weapons for a squad, I think they're worth keeping around just for if someone wants an all infantry force. I see than more as an upgrade for a unit rather than an entry by themselves.

Fixing Storm troopers is a thread all by itself, I think that if their guns count as anything they should count as 'Dark Angels Shotguns' (Str 4) It gives them a different role to SoB. I've never seen Stormtroopers fielded in an SoB force. They could be given Deep Strike and Infilltrate as options if the're taken as Elites (a bit like codex IG).

A Storm trooper lieutenant (leading the platoon) would be a good place to use those converted (over equipped) Storm trooper sergeants out there wearing Power Armour and such.

I wonder if making this a fan-dex reality would be a good idea as GW take forever to produce these things.

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As a long time SOB player, I have to say that combining DH and SOB (WH) lists would be a major step backwards for my Sister Army. My allied Arbites took a major hit with their shotguns the last revision, and from what you guys are talking about, you guys would probably drop them all together.

I also have a GK army group and it plays nothing like my Sister army, though people have been playing with combined force lists to some effect for a couple of years now (IG or Space marine armies with GK and WH allies). Your proposals would neuter these combos also.

The WH codex expanded my Sister army significantly with an expansion from a simple Sister army to a choice of two differing faction type of Sisters. Of course I had to collect enough units to field either, depending on my mood.

Gw recognized a major mistake in the WH codex, with the absence of the Fraternus Militia (Zealots), and published an update in White dwarf to reincorporate these back into sisters' lists. Hopefully if there ever is an update, this re-emergence will be formalized into the codex rather than players haveing to hunt down PDFs or copies of the WD to get the rules.

A single codex for GK/SOB/WH will only further marginalize my armies!!

So here is a no vote on this issue!

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If Inquisition Storms can take Shotguns, you still have Arbites.

If the Codex is combined like Chaos Marines, SoB & GK will mix like chocolate & peanut butter!

I wouldn't worry, though. GW will have to redo the IG and SM Codices before touching Inquisition, so you have plenty of time not to worry.

   
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Sheffield, UK

dragonlady wrote:As a long time SOB player, I have to say that combining DH and SOB (WH) lists would be a major step backwards for my Sister Army. My allied Arbites took a major hit with their shotguns the last revision, and from what you guys are talking about, you guys would probably drop them all together.


I'm suggesting that Storm troopers come with Str 4 Assault 2 Range 12" AP- Hellguns with targeters, Frag and Krak Grenades and come in Platoons (2-5 squads plus commander) I'd think Arbites would fit very well with that profile especially if Rhinos are reduced in cost to space marine codex level and Chimeras are cheapened in points too. Arbites would just be different sculpts for Storm troopers with no change to their rules.

I am opposed to mixed GK or SoB with Imperial Guard or Space Marines outside of Apocalypse.

I'm not sure how I feel about Zealots in the list.

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George Spiggott wrote:
dragonlady wrote:As a long time SOB player, I have to say that combining DH and SOB (WH) lists would be a major step backwards for my Sister Army. My allied Arbites took a major hit with their shotguns the last revision, and from what you guys are talking about, you guys would probably drop them all together.


I'm suggesting that Storm troopers come with Str 4 Assault 2 Range 12" AP- Hellguns with targeters, Frag and Krak Grenades and come in Platoons (2-5 squads plus commander) I'd think Arbites would fit very well with that profile especially if Rhinos are reduced in cost to space marine codex level and Chimeras are cheapened in points too. Arbites would just be different sculpts for Storm troopers with no change to their rules.

I am opposed to mixed GK or SoB with Imperial Guard or Space Marines outside of Apocalypse.

I'm not sure how I feel about Zealots in the list.


Why would you want to change the charactoristics of the Sisters of Battle since the first rules regarding them were published in the 2nd edition black codex?

Why would GW wish to limit sales of them in any way?

It's the one nice thing about the inquisition books. You don't have to play the whole army, you can just add a squad or two. But for that GW gets the ability to sell

a codex
a couple of squads
some characters

without the people who bought them being committed to an army and thus scared off.
   
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Albany, NY

JohnHwangDD wrote:
The mono-Codex concept means that you don't *need* another book to play your army. But that doesn't rule out the option to play a combined force.

Good ideas in this thread, you both have expanded upon my own ideas on the possible C: INQ, and beyond. I will disagree with the above though, I think the mono-codex concept means you deliberately *cannot* combine army books for one force. You want to do that, APOC has made it quite clear that that's the place for such things. A quick glance at the fate of LatD (an army even more dependant upon allies to function than C: DH), relegated to APOC's land of no force org or army book, adds painfully proof of this ...

I do have a problem with sisters and grey knights rocking out together, though I suppose I could see grey knight termies being the heavy hitters in an army of sisters troops and fast attak (seraphim), headed up by an inquisitor and a few squads of specialist 'fluff' units.

- Salvage

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/01/04 14:39:38


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Lancaster PA

I would like to see a combined =I= codex, though I think they would need to rethink the units a bit.
The trouble with WH (my main list) as I see it is that it wasn't built to stand alone, but was meant to be beefed up with either SM or IG for things like heavy weapons and long ranged anti-tank. In other words, they built it with the close range, CoD type battle in mind, which is great if you play those types.

Personally, I think the best thing to do would be to leave the Sisters largely untouched with just some rules tweaking, but condense the GK's a good bit. I think the GK Predators etc. are sort of silly, though the LR's make sense. In general the Inq's could be condensed into one entry with wargear options and retinue options to build "types" which would really just be "what are you good at killing?".

I think it could be a really strong and flexible list with just a little work on what is currently in there. I do want them to lean away from "Must take X crappy unit to get Y neat unit." Having to take a naked priest to get penitent engines? Why? It isn't as though PE's are over powered, and half the price of a PE for a St3T3W2 fellow with no armor or weapon who makes any unit he is attached to count as moving? Horrid. Better to allow them to be taken, but add army bonuses (real bonuses) instead of requiring them to take units, like the SM commanders.


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I think Daemon Hosts come through a special character. The normal list represents your garden variety inquisitor, and we get a Farsight-esque variant list for the Radical. He can't have the usual units Radicals lose, but he gets a Daemonhost Retinue/is a Daemonhost himself.

All in all, fact is that Warhammer 40K has never been as balanced as it is now, and codex releases have never been as interesting as they are now (new units and vehicles and tons of new special rules/strategies each release -- not just the same old crap with a few changes in statlines and points costs).

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_______________________________________

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Sheffield, UK

efarrer wrote:Why would you want to change the charactoristics of the Sisters of Battle since the first rules regarding them were published in the 2nd edition black codex?

I don't. Where have I suggested this?

efarrer wrote:It's the one nice thing about the inquisition books. You don't have to play the whole army, you can just add a squad or two.

Allies belong in Apocalypse now, not standard 'codex' 40k. Only radicals need allies IMO as they have so few options.

A sisters/Inquisitor force would have access to the Orbital bombardment, Exorsist(s) and Immolators (HB & MM) I don't think it would be that short of heavy weaponry. Cheaper Rhinos, and Immolators would help them close the gap.

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Why should Allies belong in Apocalypse? People don't
seem to use them as unbalancing factors in regular 40k
games, and they seem to include them for variety and
character, which is what they are for. Relegating them to
an expansion that not everyone wants to play would be a
mistake.

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conserding how the new codicies lookes like, I higly doubt that we'll see rules for allies. I don't think it fits with GW new make-everything-super-uncomplicated strategy.

which is a shame, because a singel Ordo Xenos book would totally rock.


and what is ordo sicarus?
   
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Lancaster PA

George Spiggott wrote:
Allies belong in Apocalypse now, not standard 'codex' 40k. Only radicals need allies IMO as they have so few options.

A sisters/Inquisitor force would have access to the Orbital bombardment, Exorsist(s) and Immolators (HB & MM) I don't think it would be that short of heavy weaponry. Cheaper Rhinos, and Immolators would help them close the gap.


Immolators are not real tanks. They are not even Predator levels of useful. Not bad for a transport, but not as a HS slot. Likewise orbital bombardment is unusable, even when taken en masse in Apocalypse (I have tried. Doesn't work.) Which leaves you with Excorcists as vehicles, and girls with heavybolters/multimeltas. Retributor squads are ok, but having to put your anti-tank within 24" of the enemy is a bad thing, especially since they have souped up rockets above 12".
Sisters really need to be able to take at least a heavy bolter in standard squads, preferably a multi-melta as well to even start being as flexible as other armies. You have to take a minimum of 10 girls in a unit anyway, so you can't even benefit from the handy Razorback type heavy weapons Marines have. The army is WAY too focused on taking out infantry as opposed to being well rounded, so much so that as a stand alone army they have issues as written.


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George Spiggott wrote:
A sisters/Inquisitor force would have access to the Orbital bombardment, Exorsist(s) and Immolators (HB & MM) I don't think it would be that short of heavy weaponry. Cheaper Rhinos, and Immolators would help them close the gap.


Excuse me, but do you actually ever played a game with or against a WH force?
That post of yours makes me think you never did or are a very ignorant person.

George Spiggott wrote:I think allies have no place in a GK or SoB force; when you take into account the lack of choices for a radical Inquisitor (i.e. no GK, DW or SoB) then maybe allies have merit just to fill out the radical list.


What's the reason for puritan Inquisitors not being able to take allies?

Wehrkind wrote:In general the Inq's could be condensed into one entry with wargear options and retinue options to build "types" which would really just be "what are you good at killing?".


Yay! Take this and what the two Johns said and you'd get a fabulous Codex.


Overall...I hope you agree with me...the Inquisition needs a major buff.

On the topic 'Wich bases are supplied with my Terminators and how could I abuse it'...after turning into a debate on english language and the meaning of the word 'supply'.
tegeus-Cromis wrote:Everything that comes in the box is "accompanying" everything else that comes in the box. When you buy a Happy Meal from McD's, no one expects you to dunk the toy in the sauce, but it doesn't mean the toy wasn't "supplied with" it.
 
   
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Wehrkind wrote:Immolators are not real tanks. They are not even Predator levels of useful. Not bad for a transport, but not as a HS slot. Likewise orbital bombardment is unusable, even when taken en masse in Apocalypse (I have tried. Doesn't work.) Which leaves you with Excorcists as vehicles, and girls with heavybolters/multimeltas. Retributor squads are ok, but having to put your anti-tank within 24" of the enemy is a bad thing, especially since they have souped up rockets above 12".
Sisters really need to be able to take at least a heavy bolter in standard squads, preferably a multi-melta as well to even start being as flexible as other armies. You have to take a minimum of 10 girls in a unit anyway, so you can't even benefit from the handy Razorback type heavy weapons Marines have. The army is WAY too focused on taking out infantry as opposed to being well rounded, so much so that as a stand alone army they have issues as written.

Not really a problem if the codex is being rewritten. Immolators can be downgraded to transports and standard sister squads could be allowed HB's and MM's. I think a pure SoB force or SoB & GK combined force should have enough heavy weapons knocking about without having to resort to allies in sub 3,000 point (non-Apocalypse) games.

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Well, yea, if they rewrite how things work is might be fine. If they knock the squad sizes down to say 6-20, so regular squads can take an Immolator, then it might work out. But hey, if they are going to rewrite everything, I have a pretty long wish list


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Boss_Salvage wrote:I think the mono-codex concept means you deliberately *cannot* combine army books for one force.

A quick glance at the fate of LatD

No. The mono-Codex concept addresses things like needing Codex: Eldar to use Codex: Craftworlds, and Codex: SM to use Codex: BA / DA, along with things like LatD. Tied Codices like Craftworlds, Armageddon, DA / BA / LatD are dead because you can't buy one book and play your army - you *need* to buy two books.

And if you were taking Allies with BA, that would be *3* books: BA, SM, and WH/DH. What a mess.

A combined Inquisition with the Allies rules is different. Inquisition would still be playable as a "pure" force, just as SM would still be playable as a "pure" force. Nothing would force the player to take Allies. But the option would be available. And the rules could be simplified and clarified to support this cleanly

Getting back to LatD, that was just a bad decision on GW's part. There were no models, just a list. As GW is a models company, not a rules company, LatD never should have been released in the first place.

Inquisition models date back to Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition, as Imperial Allies, and the Allies model carries all of the way through today. To suddenly take Allies away entirely just wouldn't work because those armies are designed to be fielded as part of a combined force. Except Sisters - they're actually playable standalone, but then, Sisters also had a 2E Codex.

Wehrkind wrote:The trouble with WH (my main list) as I see it is that it wasn't built to stand alone,

Totally agreed - WH is actually 2 lists - Sisters of Battle, and freakshow. You can't really combine the two concepts effectively because of the way Faith works. It's a real mess.

George Spiggott wrote:Allies belong in Apocalypse now, not standard 'codex' 40k.

Complex Allies should go away. Simple Allies would be OK, and should be defined in the rulebook.

Wehrkind wrote:Immolators are not real tanks.

Likewise orbital bombardment is unusable,

Sisters really need to be able to take at least a heavy bolter in standard squads, preferably a multi-melta as well to even start being as flexible as other armies.

You have to take a minimum of 10 girls in a unit anyway, so you can't even benefit from the handy Razorback type heavy weapons Marines have. The army is WAY too focused on taking out infantry as opposed to being well rounded, so much so that as a stand alone army they have issues as written.

Agreed.

Immolators should be Transports. Orbital Bombardment is overly restricted and should be unrestricted and treated as non-visible Indirect Fire for the increased scatter.

Sisters definitely need more flexibility in weapons and doctrine - Combat Squads would be a good option for both Sisters and Storms, with Immolators and Razorbacks available.

   
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JohnHwangDD wrote:Complex Allies should go away. Simple Allies would be OK, and should be defined in the rulebook.


Perhaps we could agree that allies should be a choise of last resort, and that the priority should be beefing up SoB units so that they don't need allies.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Sisters definitely need more flexibility in weapons and doctrine - Combat Squads would be a good option for both Sisters and Storms, with Immolators and Razorbacks available.


Combat squad(esque) rules may be the answer for SoB; lowering the squad sizes to 5-15 and giving them one weapon slot (Melta, Flamer, Multimelta etc.) per five models solves lots of problems as well as cheaper Rhinos and Immolators for Troops.

I'm not sure combat squads for Storm troopers would be to their benefit, I'd rather be forced to take squads of ten men than have twice as many five man squads.

Enforced upgrade to veteran leaders would be a good move for both of them.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/01/05 00:43:33


Spain in Flames: Flames of War (Spanish Civil War 1936-39) Flames of War: Czechs and Slovaks (WWI & WWII) Sheffield & Rotherham Wargames Club

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The only downside to Combat Squads for Storms is that you can't take 6 to 9 models. You still have the option to take ten and field them as such. But as Storms are currently fielded as 5-man throwaways with 2 Specials, Combat Squads and Razorbacks wouldn't hurt at all.

   
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Okay, so let's do this.

Basically, I'm going to write this in the same vein the Chaos lists are done in WHFB; your HQ choices define how your Troops choices are structured. Non-Ordo troops units are 0-1. Non-Ordo FA, Elite, and HS units are restricted, unless they are starred, in which case they are 0-1. This helps round out the various Ordos and makes everyone more competitive.

Ordo Xenos units get Preferred Enemy against any alien unit (that is, everything but Imperial lists and Chaos)

HQ:

Inq Lord (access to Inducted Guard Platoons, Stormtroopers as Troops, Assassins, Daemonhost)
GK Brother-Captain (Malleus)
Cannoness (Hereticus)
Deathwatch Librarian (Xenos)

Each HQ comes in "badass" and "cheapass" variants, to allow hybrid lists without undue hardship.

Elite:
GK Terminators (Malleus*)
Repentia (Hereticus)
Assassins
Daemonhost (0-3 as single choice)
Deathwatch Veterans (Xenos)
Arco-Flaggelants (Hereticus)

Troops:
Inducted Guard. If entire opposing army is wiped out before turn 6, each guard squad rolls a Leadership test; if they fail, they've been corrupted and the opposing player gains control of them. I know a lot of people hate this about the Apoc GK rules, but frankly it's fun and fluffy as hell - Inquisitors regularly cull Guard that have fought against Chaos and succumbed, and those guard would likely fight back.

Storm Troopers (Gain Deepstrike)
Sisters of Battle line squads (Hereticus)
Grey Knights (Malleus)
Deathwatch Tac Squads (Sargeant and ammo upgrades only, combat squads) (Xenos)
Zealots (Hereticus or Inq. Lord only, 0-1 for Inqs)

FA:
GK Purgation Squads (Malleus)
Seraphim (Hereticus)
Deathwatch Bikes (Xenos)
Arcoflagellants (Hereticus*)
Arbites Fast-Response Team (S4 Ap6 Assault 2 shotguns, carapace armor, Stormtrooper profile, Stun Batons count as Poisoned Weapons)

HS:
Land Raider / Crusader (Maleus, Xenos; each have appropriate upgrades availible for bolter ammo on Crusaders)
Retributors (Hereticus)
Exorcist (Hereticus)
Penitent Engine (0-1, made Monstrous Creatures, up to 3 as single choice, deploy independently)
Orbital Bombardmant (May buy up to 3 as single choice, S6 AP3 Ordinance Blast, called in at any time from Turn 2 on without rolling for reserves, does not scatter)
Dreadnought (Malleus, Xenos, bolter upgrades)

Don't think I missed anything big.
   
 
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