Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So this came up a couple days ago. Would love to hear what Dakkites think.

I have a battlewagon sitting in my backfield. It was full of lootas, but the BW got penned and the lootas were forced out, they are next to it in a cluster.

I have a trukk standing sideways pretty much facing the battlewagon head on from the BW's side.

Cunning Tau get a single AC shot off into the trukk, and blow it up.

A 'Kareem' result occurs. No, no points were scored.

The Trukk scatters into the middle of the BW and the Lootas.

I'm assuming since I can't find any rules other than the 'deep striking on top of friends' ruling in the 40K BBB FAQ and that disembark/embark isn't allowed in an opponents phase...

The unit inside would thus be destroyed?

That's how we played it, so it was pretty funny but I'd like others 2 cents.

I don't believe the unit inside the trukk is destroyed. the Kareen says afer it scatters, use the Kaboom result which states the unit disembark and then take a pinning test. Seeing as this can only be done in the opponent's phase, just like emergency disembarking due to a pen hit, there is nothing wrong with simply disembarking the models from the vehicle, as long as they are within 2 inches of the trukk's access point.

Well if there is no place to disembark because the trukk and everything within 2" is a friendly model...they still live? I'm not so sure about that.

Don't think of it so much as deep-striking as a blast-template full of Orks. Apply the hit to the Battlewagon (impossible to penetrate or even glance its armour) and anything else in range, then disembark the trukk's transported Orks. If their disembarkation is blocked by the Battlewagon, then you get roasted Orks just as if they could not disembark a destroyed vehicle.

Stelek wrote:Well if there is no place to disembark because the trukk and everything within 2" is a friendly model...they still live? I'm not so sure about that.

Then no, they die. Pg 62 of BGB, last paragraph. If there is no room to disembark due to a compulsory disembarking, every model that can't fit is dead. Rather harsh, but I've seen this take out a Land Raider full of terminators, and I didn't shed any tears.

However dont friendly vehicles have to stop when the impact on other friendlys since you "cant move over friendly models"

Its in the Tankshock section P70 of the big book

It would depend on how the kareem rules are worded. The Trukk might just stop at that point or the models would have to give way for the Trukk. if it is the latter than is possible that the Trukk is now surrounded by Lootas on one side and the Battlewagon on the other. In this case all transported models will die and the Trukk becomes Terrain or a crater depending on the result.

Given the rules on PG 70 I would say the Trukk would stop as soon as it hits the unit of Lootas and then the models can get out. However there might be someting in the Ork rules that will overide this.

Turbo_MMX wrote:However dont friendly vehicles have to stop when the impact on other friendlys since you "cant move over friendly models"

Its in the Tankshock section P70 of the big book

The Kareen rule states you stop movement on this if the Trukk gets within 1 inch of an enemy model or terrain but this wording doesn't include friendly models of any type, which leads me to believe that it is possible for your trukk to end up on top of your own models. I really don't know if that Tank Shock reference is really valid, but I may be wrong. I've tried looking, but the Kareen rule is very unique in the way it deals with the vehicle scattering, and as it stands, the rules aren't exactly crystal in how to handle such obscure developments. Kind of like my question of what do you do if you scatter a trukk off the table? Guess it'll open a can of worms like the whole "tank shocking off of the table" thread. What a nightmare.

which leads me to believe that it is possible for your trukk to end up on top of your own models

Look through the official rulebook errata on the GW homepage. It says that models are never allowed to be placed on top of any other models.

DaBoss as the rules in the main rule book have not been overridden by the Ork Codex the Trukk will stop as soon as it makes contact with one of your modes. Its as simple as that.

Therion wrote:Look through the official rulebook errata on the GW homepage. It says that models are never allowed to be placed on top of any other models.

I would tend to agree with you, but again, its not exactly supported by a lot of rules. Rules also state you can't place your models on enemy models either, but this is specifically clarified in the Ork 'Dex, but not for friendly models. Either way, until there is an FAQ, I would use the 1 inch rule for friendly model's too, just to be safe.

Pg 15 of the rules book covers this fairly clearly, the BGB says a model may not move into/through the space occupied by a friendly model or through a gap between friendly models smaller than it's own base size.

Since the Kareen move isn't dropping the Trukk on top of the mob in question it would move normally.

Thus it would stop in contact with friendly models.

Agreed. P15 has it.

Mannahnin wrote:Agreed. P15 has it.

Page 15 refers to the Movement Phase and standard movement. The Kareen rule has nothing to do with the section described on page 15.

It’s still movement. Movement outside the movement phase has to be considered to follow the usual rules of movement in the movement phase except where specifically overridden, or the game breaks down. Try making movement in the assault phase (or Fleet movement) work while disregarding all the rules and restrictions from the earlier chapters. It doesn’t work.

Playing Kareen this way makes for fewer conflicts and bizarre situations. If you don't think page 15 applies, that leaves you grasping for resolution. In situations the rules don’t explicitly cover, the next step taken is generally to compare it to similar situations. Drop Pod scattering is the closest thing that leaps to my mind. The DP rules have the exact same hole- they state that the pod stops short of enemies and impassible terrain, but fail to mention friendlies. The FAQ for pods clarifies that friendly units also count as impassible for this purpose, and you can’t land on them.

The best and simplest way to play it seems fairly clear to me, by whichever method you arrive at it.

Agree with Mannahnin you need to follow the standard rules for movement in this case unless the rules for the situation specifically state differently.

I entirely agree with the both of you. I would play it that you would include friendly units in the definition of Kareen as it does for enemy units. However, I only point out that this logic isn't exactly supported by much. You state that this is considered standard movement that it is not possible to land on units in play, but doesn't Deep Strike do this too? The FAQ states you can Deep Strike on friendly models and says nothing about disallowing it to happen in general. I believe this is a very unusual movement that by its very nature isn't movement in the traditional sense. Again, I agree that until an FAQ comes out to clarify this, friendly units should be included as well.

DaBoss wrote:I entirely agree with the both of you. I would play it that you would include friendly units in the definition of Kareen as it does for enemy units. However, I only point out that this logic isn't exactly supported by much. You state that this is considered standard movement that it is not possible to land on units in play, but doesn't Deep Strike do this too? The FAQ states you can Deep Strike on friendly models and says nothing about disallowing it to happen in general. I believe this is a very unusual movement that by its very nature isn't movement in the traditional sense. Again, I agree that until an FAQ comes out to clarify this, friendly units should be included as well.

Actually the BGB FAQ stated that you cannot occupy the same space as a friendly model (I believe it mentions deepstrike).

Ravenous D wrote:

DaBoss wrote:I entirely agree with the both of you. I would play it that you would include friendly units in the definition of Kareen as it does for enemy units. However, I only point out that this logic isn't exactly supported by much. You state that this is considered standard movement that it is not possible to land on units in play, but doesn't Deep Strike do this too? The FAQ states you can Deep Strike on friendly models and says nothing about disallowing it to happen in general. I believe this is a very unusual movement that by its very nature isn't movement in the traditional sense. Again, I agree that until an FAQ comes out to clarify this, friendly units should be included as well.

Actually the BGB FAQ stated that you cannot occupy the same space as a friendly model (I believe it mentions deepstrike).

Including friendly unit in the description is not needed. The inclusion of enemy models was included becasue it is normally Legal to tank shock enemy troops. It is not legal to tank shock your own however it is legal to move inot contact them. So the kareening vehicle will move in the required direction until it runs inot something it normally isn't allowed to move through (friendly troops or board edges) at which point it will stop. So the truck inquestion could not have moved into the center of the loota's as it normally would have to stop when it contacted them, and no rules in the karreen result overide this restriction.

Doesnt the ramshackle rule state that the Kareening vehicles stop when they get within 1" of friendly models(Is it just vehicles maybe?) or terrain. So maybe if it were to hit a single loota then it would stop(Strong loota ya see ) and they hop out.

Not sure as I don't have the Codex and might already have been covered.