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Hi all,
I've got 1500 points of chaos, and I'm wondering what the good folks at dakka think of it. I'm looking for general tips for improved performance without getting to the powergamer stage.
(before you say it, I'm already aware of how shoddy the possessed are, and I'm open to suggestion for what to replace them with)

Daemon prince: MoN, Wings = 150

10x Possessed =260

5x Terminators : MoN, 2 PFist, Reaper = 235

10x CSM: HB, Meltagun, AC, PFist, MoN = 260

7x Plague Marines: 2 Plasmaguns, Plague champ, PW =221

5x Raptors: 2 Flamers, AC, LightningClaws =150

6x Havocs: Lascannon, Autocannon, Missile Launcher, Heavy Bolter =180

Predator: Lascannon side sponsons, possession =150

Total = 1486 points

Basically I'm aiming for a tough, yet versatile army. Raptors are for horde control and objective grabbing, Plagues are for holding ground/objectives, havocs and pred are anti-armour static firebases, Daemon Prince is the speedy choppy tough meteor of doom, the termies and CSM have no defined roll, they are the versatile jack of most trades, and the possessed- erm... well the models are nice. I usually end up sending them straight into an enemy squad and hoping they do something useful. Any suggestions or comments are very welcome.

Anyone? heloooooooo?



(And yes, this is just a rubbish post to get me up to the top of the list in the hope that someone might notice the thread )

Well, there is a very useful summary of Stelek how to configure a competitive Chaos army.
Some comments:
Give the DP rot of Nurgle.
Replace the Possessed by Plague Marines (with 2 plasma guns, power fist) as these guys just don't die.
Beef up your Plague Marine squad and drop the regular CSM unit, possibly for more Raptors or Obliterators.
The Pred is asked for getting smoked as its the only tank in your army.

i have been playing for years but still only play friendlies. i refuse to become a "powergamer".
is your pic Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon?


now onto your list.

all of my suggestions will have a reason but if you just have to have your coolest model on the table, keep it in.
i have some imperfect bits and bobs in nearly all my armies because i love the model/conversion/flavour etc.

possessed are poo. i try to eliminate too much chance on the battlefield. these models could fit into one of six different roles. unfortunatelly, you dont find out which role till after you have placed them. you will be placing 260 points with a 1 in 6 chance of puting it where it use its abilities effectively. the idea is really cool and i love the models but i cant field them.
spend the points on more troops.

the 10 vanilla marines
heavy bolter, melta, fist. 3 roles, one squad.
try to pick a role for your squad an optimise it for that role. fist and assault, rapid fire weapons are good together. if you are using their long range HB, then you are wasteing the champ, fist and eight other marines. you have 6 troops slots, use em.

your other squad is great. optimesed. rapid fire weapons, toughness boosted, good for CC.

Havoc squad is messy too. anti troop mixed with anti armour. when you shoot at tanks, the HB and auto are useless, when you shoot at troops, the ML(krak) and LC can kill only two men.

try 2x 6 man squads, one with 2x HB and 1x auto, the other with 3x ML. or just the ML squad. the annihilator is good AA already. ML are versitile, frag and krak.

be careful with using 5 raptors for horde control. five raptors wont go far with a big horde. flae templates are within assault rane so you will probably only get to use them once.

hope this helps.

add oblits instead of the tank too, sorry about the late add. one tank is a target.

Butterfly_Tyrant wrote:i have been playing for years but still only play friendlies. i refuse to become a "powergamer".
is your pic Ming the Merciless from Flash Gordon?

Its Yuri from Red Alert 2. Quite the potent Psyker if I recall

And for the list.

While Possessed are as you said Shoddy, If ya like em use em. In 10's as you have have them I've been told they can actually be quite a fun unit,Again the problem is what power the Daemonkin throws at you.

Now as people have said the DP,Give him Warptime or Rot of Nurgle. My preference is Warptime but Rot can cause some wounds your choice but give the DP a power.

For the CSM's I used to mix the squads with Heavy and Assault and tbh it doesn't work. Even in fun games it really is more fun to have a unit which does a task. Drop the HB for a Melta or a Flamer and give 'em a Rhino and drive them up to the enemy.

For the Raptors, 5 isn't enough imho. Consider dropping the Possessed for more of these if ya want. 10 man squad with 2 Assault Guns makes for a nice squad. Give them Mark of Slaanesh or Nurgle aswell. With Slaanesh they will attack first on most troops and at the same time as most Pesky IC's. And T5 Raptors can help them survive if they are caught in a fire fight out of combat.

With the Havocs again, If ya drop the possessed for 2 squads of 6 Havocs, One with AI and one with AV weaponry can make all the difference.

Not a Pred. user so can't comment.

So to summarise. Work the possessed in as a major element and see how it goes. If ya don't like em drop them for the 10 man Raptors and more Havocs.

Thanks for the good input guys.
Since I've only been in the hobby for half a year that list happens to be my entire collection of models. But I think I can get some good changes in for another box of havocs and another box of plagues. Here's my new list:

DP: wings, MoN, Nurgle's Rot = 165

5x raptors: AC, LCs, 2 Flamers = 150

5x termies: 2 fist, MoN, reaper = 235

9x CSM: AC, PFist, Meltagun, MoN = 235

14x Plague Marines: Champ, Fist, 2 Plas = 382

Predator: Lascannon side sponsons = 130

6x havocs: 2 Lascannons, 2 MLs = 200

total = 1497 pts.

CSMs now are more inclined to get close to the enemy, Plague marines will survive through nuclear holocaust, DP has some anti-tarpit, Havocs are dedicated tack/MC killers, although the Pred is less survivable now.
so I've got one less scoring squad, same wounds, greater firepower, defined roles, a rock hard unit, and a weaker assault.

Alternatively, against hordes, I could go

DP: wings, MoN, Nurgle's Rot = 165

5x raptors: AC, LCs, 2 Flamers = 150

5x termies: 2 fist, MoN, reaper = 235

9x CSM: AC, PFist, Meltagun, MoN = 235

14x Plague Marines: Champ, Fist, 2 Plas = 382

5x havocs: 3 HBs, Autocannon = 235

6x havocs: Autocannon, Lascannon, 2 MLs = 185

total of 1492 points, one squad of havocs will have 11 s5+ shots spewing into large squads, while the other can take smaller chunks out of hordes but deal with medium armour. Plagues deploy centrally and take as many shots/attcks as they can. I'll still use possessed in fun games, or ones where I really need some assault. So, What do guys think?

what no Defilier? got to be one of the most fun vechical in the army (personal lay out remove the heavy flamour and auto cannon and shove on 2 more close combat weapons ... and run him into combat firing off his battle cannon or fleeting if its destoryed)

chaos bikers with the mark of nurgle work well (toughness 6 makes wounding them a pain)

and a HQ choice i'd probly go for one of the speshal charictors ...Fabius Bile is a good one 160p (enhance warriors +3pts/per model, fearless and +1 strenth is a good buy even; if theres a chance you'll roll a 1 or 6 for the enhancement)

So, Tri, you'd basically throw out his army list and substitute your own? Great advice. Not only that, but Defilers are crap, Fabius Bile is awful and Nurgle bikers are decent at best. Epic fail.

Tek_K42:

5x raptors: AC, LCs, 2 Flamers = 150

This squad is rather small to be investing in a champ, IMO. I would not be confident in getting these guys into combat, or achieving much once they're there. I would either add a couple more bodies or drop the champ.

5x termies: 2 fist, MoN, reaper = 235

I don't think the IoN is worthwhile with only 5 Termies, especially not in this list. Considering that all the enemy's AP2 firepower will be directed at these 5 guys, most of which will wound them just as easily whether they're T4 or T5, I doubt you'll get enough of a benefit to justify the high per model cost of the IoN.

9x CSM: AC, PFist, Meltagun, MoN = 235

What's the point of these guys? What possible advantage do they have over a unit of 7 Plague Marines (with change to spare)?

14x Plague Marines: Champ, Fist, 2 Plas = 382

Overkill. There's no need for such large squads. You'd be better off trimming these guys, turning the CSM unit into more PMs, and using the points to buff the numbers of the other squad.

Predator: Lascannon side sponsons = 130

6x havocs: 2 Lascannons, 2 MLs = 200

A terrible waste. Preds can be fairly cost-effective anti-horde, but they're overpriced for an AT role. Oblits are better than them and AT Havocs.

Second list:

5x havocs: 3 HBs, Autocannon = 235

Not enough ablatives. One casualty and every casualty thereafter loses you a heavy. Also, the AC is pointless. You diminish your effectiveness when firing at hordes, and if you fire at a light vehicle you waste 3 HBs. 3! Stick to all HBs for this squad.

6x havocs: Autocannon, Lascannon, 2 MLs = 185

Why the one AC?

This squad would be better off as Oblits.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:So, Tri, you'd basically throw out his army list and substitute your own?

Considering the rest of your post basically rubbishes the original poster's army list and suggests the same tired old Obliterator-spam based snore-fest you and Stelek insist that every Chaos Marine army should have.

Teh_K42:

You might want a second look at the Possessed. Their Daemonkin rule really only shines in combination with an Icon of some sort.

With regard to flexibility, you have a list capable of doing many things, but it's full of brittle units. The Havocs, for example, will lose effect fast as they take casualties because they have lots of Heavy Weapons spread around few bodies. Likewise the Raptors and Terminators have lots of expensive gear that'll disappear once those units suffer two or three casualties, which isn't much even for Chaos Marines.

It might be something to think about the things you want to do, and how your units will complement, synergize, or back-up each other.

Complementary units will do different things: Havocs can complement Raptors, for example, if you want to destroy vehicles with ranged weapons, and you want to destroy infantry at close range and in assault. Likewise you might want Havocs to be dedicated to anti-infantry while your Raptors hunt vehicles.

Synergetic units enhance each other, and you don't really have any of those since you aren't summoning any Daemons although you have Icons and Champions to summon them into or around. Likewise you don't have many vehicles, and of those none have Dirge Casters. And your Daemon Prince isn't Slaaneshi with the Lash of Submission, which synergizes well with both assault troops and shooting troops.

Back-ups or redundant unit basically allow you to do something in spite of some units either being destroyed or breaking. Having two units of Havocs is an example of redundancy, but so would be having a flexible unit of Raptors and a flexible unit of Havocs. Taking a single Predator without redundancy gives all the anti-tank weapons (S8+) in your opponent's army something appropriate to chew on that they can handle. Taking three, for example, would not ony spread that firepower three ways, but mean that you would have that mobile firepower (albeit reduced) if one Predator was unavailable (destroyed, not on the board yet, etc).

If you want a versatile army, I'd suggest doing it with versatile units (Daemon Princes are versatile) that can all shoot, assault, move, and take damage. A Daemon Prince leading an army of Raptors, Chaos Space Marines, and Havocs if you want to go all infantry. If you wanted Predators, then I'd suggest dropping the Havocs and taking Rhinos for the Marines.

HQ
Daemon Prince - 165pts
-Mark of Nurgle
-Nurgle's Rot
-Wings

Troops
2x Chaos Space Marine Squad -570pts
Chaos Space Marines (10)
-One Melta Gun and One Melta/Missle Launcher/Autocannon
-Icon of Nurgle
Rhino
-Extra Armour or Daemonic Possesion
-Havoc Launcher or Combi-Weapon

Fast Attack
2x Raptor Squad - 490pts
Raptors (9)
-Two Melta Guns
Aspiring Champion
-Lightening Claws
-Melta Bombs

Heavy Support
Havoc Squad - 260pts
Havocs (10)
-Two Lascannons
-Two Missile Launchers

Yeah, obliterators suck.

I love how all of the squads in your list lose 3 guys and start taking morale tests.

I'd argue with you, but it's a exercise in futility since you don't know how 40k really works since I don't think you play.

cult marines aren't the only way to have an effective army.

i agree for shooting troops fearless is amazing, and even sometimes in combat, and oblits are chaos' best anti tank...

i also think undivided armies do good. i use word bearers and have only IoCG in the list for fluff, but it turns out nicely in the game as well. moral tests suck, but with undivided taken that is offset some by the reroll.

Nurglitch:

Considering the rest of your post basically rubbishes the original poster's army list and suggests the same tired old Obliterator-spam based snore-fest you and Stelek insist that every Chaos Marine army should have.

I suggested swapping one squad of Nurgle-marked CSMs for Plague Marines (wow, big change!) and dropping AT Preds and Havocs for Oblits. Tri suggested (for no particular reason) swapping out upwards of 600 points of units for something totally different. I hope you can see the difference.

Are Preds and Havocs very exciting compared to Oblits? I wasn't aware. They all seem equally boring to me. At least with Oblits you get the novelty of weapon morphing, firing on the move and DSing (if you like). With Havocs and Preds in 5th ed, you basically deploy them and shoot. And shoot. And shoot. That's all they will ever do. The fact that they're unpopular does not make them any more interesting to use or face.

Bastirous666, cult Marines may not be the only way, but the OP has 9 CSMs marked for Nurgle and equipped as if they were PMs! A knife and a spoon may be meant for different things, and thus not directly comparable in general, but when you buy a knife with the sole purpose of using it as a spoon and modify it to be as spoon-like as possible, any fool can see you'd be better off just buying a spoon to begin with. Sometimes the better choice really is clear.

Tegeus-Cromis:

Tri suggested (for no particular reason) swapping out upwards of 600 points of units for something totally different.

fair point didn't explain myself i'm not a fan of a single MC in an army what with the new rules coming out. ok it has 4 wounds and immune to instant death; but IMHO any 5 man unite of snipers could kill him in 2-3 turns (eldar 1-2) ... where as a normal infantary model could at least be hidden in a unit ...

ok next why Bile? well i picked my favourt of the SC's that was near the same cost as his Daemon Prince. Kharn or Lucius would be just as exeptable but i like the enhance ablity. For example use it on a unit of Raptors and you have some thing quite scary and on a Large unit, a roll of 6 might even be wanted (+ the Icon of Khorn for an extra attack).

Defilers would replace the preditor. Can always shoot its battle Cannon (Daemonic Possession) and when it comes down to it there aren't may things that could get at it and damage it (yes armour 12 but getting heavy weapons to see him would be a hard if played right). Again for example unit Assault Marrines Deep strikes they have nothing that can damage it at range... defiler turns round and fires it battle cannon at them then assaults; melta bombs (assuming they have them) needing 6 to hit, power fist atacking last only one attack (new rules). wonder who'll win combat? AM Move 3D6" off the board (cause you fall back to the closest board edge and i see no reason for the defiler to be in the midle of the map).

good call on "swapping one squad of Nurgle-marked CSMs for Plague Marines" (completely missed that he'd done that) that would make sence since they then get feel no pain. Though i'm not a massive fan of Obliterators ... still deep striking HW that can shoot on the turn they arive is useful, its just not me ... still this is not an army i'm building so hope the OP can desided how he wants to build his army ... after all no army list is perfect, its finding some thing you enjoy playing with (hell my eldar army has swooping hawks in it simply cause i love destoying Monliths and LR with them ^_^ if i wanted a more effective army i'm sure there are better things to spend their points on)

Woah. I go away for a while and this thread is resurected with everyone contributing. That's a nice surprise.

I didn't go through with my list. As is I just gave my DP Nurgle's Rot and got a Land Raider, otherwise it is identical to the list in the OP. I kind of abandoned the idea of a tooled up list because my (very) small game group are all relatively new to W40k and just play casually. I pick what I take on a game-to game basis, rather than have a list.

I do like the Land Raider, it has a nice habit surviving battles. Does this count as 'redundancy' for my pred nurglitch?

@ tegeus Cromis: I'm not taking the Icon of Nurgle off those termies NOW, I spent ages painting the gits all rusty and diseased like, so it's a bit late. Nurglitch's idea of giving the possessed an icon intrigues me, but I don't know how much more effective t5 possessed would be. Might get another squad of seven Plagues down the track, i'm thinking 2xplas and fist.

So thank you all very much for your help, but considering my current gaming environment putting all that money, time and energy into a good list seems a little pointless. I'll try to learn nice, cheap tactics instead, like those ones Nurglitch referred to.

tegeus-Cromis wrote:Nurglitch:

Considering the rest of your post basically rubbishes the original poster's army list and suggests the same tired old Obliterator-spam based snore-fest you and Stelek insist that every Chaos Marine army should have.

I suggested swapping one squad of Nurgle-marked CSMs for Plague Marines (wow, big change!) and dropping AT Preds and Havocs for Oblits. Tri suggested (for no particular reason) swapping out upwards of 600 points of units for something totally different. I hope you can see the difference.

Are Preds and Havocs very exciting compared to Oblits? I wasn't aware. They all seem equally boring to me. At least with Oblits you get the novelty of weapon morphing, firing on the move and DSing (if you like). With Havocs and Preds in 5th ed, you basically deploy them and shoot. And shoot. And shoot. That's all they will ever do. The fact that they're unpopular does not make them any more interesting to use or face.

Bastirous666, cult Marines may not be the only way, but the OP has 9 CSMs marked for Nurgle and equipped as if they were PMs! A knife and a spoon may be meant for different things, and thus not directly comparable in general, but when you buy a knife with the sole purpose of using it as a spoon and modify it to be as spoon-like as possible, any fool can see you'd be better off just buying a spoon to begin with. Sometimes the better choice really is clear.

i was merely replying to stelek's contempt with regular CSM's that's all. anyway i never said the plague marines aren't better here, as i personally feel they are, but i was sating that it's alright if he wanted to use em' so long as they were marked with undivided, sorry carry the banner