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 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?

Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).

Jezzails still seem weak compared to Trans Arq's. Lower strength means you're not wounding on 3's against T5 characters, or 2's against weaker t3 pyskers or commissars. You also lose the chance for mortal wounds, and extra damage, at less than half range. For only... 30ish pts cheaper than a double ranger sniper squad, you'd probably be better off going snipers. This was true in the index, and is even truer now with the points reduction on ranger squads (10 pts off the same sniper unit you were already bringing)

I still think many folks will continue to run a 5 man unit of x2 trans arq rangers depending on if their primary opponent brings a lot of character psykers or reroll machines (4-5W target models or less). Those of us who face armies only with beefy opposing characters that wound require 2-3 turns of sniper fire to maybe kill will probably continue not bringing them.

Stick the rangers into a Stygies detachment, park em in cover, and they get to take advantage of not only a -1 to hit them, but also the +1 cover bonus. Give them a little bit more survivability in case your opponent panics as you remove a character on T1.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?

Actually, the question now is: Is there any reason to take Vanguard? Rangers are 1 point cheaper and last just as long. (It's just like how Servitors are the cheapest Elite at 13 points.)

Clay_Puppington wrote:

Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).

Are Rangers not 25mm and T3 1W 4+ 6++? Oh. You expect them to do something other than die?!

Suzuteo wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?

Actually, the question now is: Is there any reason to take Vanguard? Rangers are 1 point cheaper and last just as long. (It's just like how Servitors are the cheapest Elite at 13 points.)

Clay_Puppington wrote:

Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).

Are Rangers not 25mm and T3 1W 4+ 6++? Oh. You expect them to do something other than die?!

I'm still bigger on the vanguard than the Rangers. Sure, they're 1 pt more expensive, but when it comes to "maybe doing a thing" when getting deepstriked, they're leaps and bounds better than the rangers. If any survive, they soften the opponent up for a countercharge of Dragoons, priests, rusts, whatever you brought.

The overwatch against a deepstriking army alone is probably enough to keep me favoring them over the rangers.

The fact that if my opponent isn't a big deepstriker, I can still advance and shoot while I run to cover/objectives/aura, means that even on the shittiest times for them, they can still possibly contribute something.

5 pts for "maybe something". 3 units of vanguard over rangers costs you 15 extra points. 15 points total for 3 units of "maybe something" that are better in pretty much all stages of bubblewrap. Nothing really else to do with those 15 pts in most lists that would really help rangers be nearly as useful.

I dunno, still think rangers outside of x2 trans arq are bunk, even at 5 pts cheaper per unit.

Wait. What? Why do you think that? How are you deploying your Vanguard? Mine are 9" in front of my artillery, and my Dragoon screen no more than 18" in front of them. The Vanguard shoot once and move 6" backward to the 3" line. Rangers aren't going to be much worse at this. In fact, 30" range probably means they will get to shoot twice before running back to the 3" line; the second time, perhaps Rapid Fire.

Vanguard and Rangers both aren't expected to deal any damage at all during Overwatch. (The average is <1 for most melee units, such as Berzerkers and Boyz.) In fact, they aren't expected to do ANYTHING AT ALL except stand there and make sure the enemy has to walk 18" to 27" to CC me. They are just there to satisfy requirements.

In light of this, saving 30 points in a Brigade to go into your artillery (which wins you the game) is more important than having some guy who might deal one or two extra damage when you're about to lose horribly.

Normally I deploy in a castle. Artillary core at the back, Dragoons in the next row, and vangaurd in the front line.

If someones deepstriking in 9.1" away and unloading on something, I'd rather they blast the cheap vanguard to bits (or be forced to charge into their overwatch). I lose less with them (both in points and in follow up countercharge effectiveness) having the vanguard die before dragoons rather than the other way around.

Any opponent I've had dropping stuff in, is launching purestrains, or plasma hhooters, or da jumping big squads of Boyz, or other heavy hitters, which are really just wasting themselves killing vanguard, but that's the only target I leave for them (if I read your deployment layout correctly, you're leaving the dragoons to die to the deepstrikes, and countershooting with your very healthy troops)

Those vanguard teams that live (on the side the deep strike doesn't happen, or somehow live through), then go on to accomplish stuff, like threaten objectives, or continue to eat fire. the ones that survive are why I will pay the extra 5 pts per squad over the rangers. If my opponent happens to not have a healthy deep strike, I then get left with more effective units to go do stuff.


Replacing them with Rangers, they have the same survivability against the shooting, and if they die, they die, sure. But those that live then go on to not contribute as much as the more mobile vanguard, nor can they then really assist my dragoons or whathaveyous in a countercharge due to not having the -1T aura the vanguard put out.

Either way, my troops are there to fulfill unit requirements, and protect everything else against deepstrikes.

Rangers and Vanguard will die just the same, but Vanguard offer more if they live, and I'd rather lose them first than dragoons (which if I used the same way you're suggesting, would die to plasma or rough melee, leaving my rangers/vanguard there to try to actually kill things in minimum squad size, rather than the other way around).

That is why I skip them altogether.

Clay_Puppington wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Is there still any reason to take rangers in any form other than min squads with Arquebuses? Or to take the Jezzail on the Dragoons?

Without Arquebeses... probably not. For only 5 pts cheaper than your Vanguard, they bubblewrap worse, eat charges worse, reengage in combat worse, and are less effectively mobile (compared to advancing assault guns).

Jezzails still seem weak compared to Trans Arq's. Lower strength means you're not wounding on 3's against T5 characters, or 2's against weaker t3 pyskers or commissars. You also lose the chance for mortal wounds, and extra damage, at less than half range. For only... 30ish pts cheaper than a double ranger sniper squad, you'd probably be better off going snipers. This was true in the index, and is even truer now with the points reduction on ranger squads (10 pts off the same sniper unit you were already bringing)

I still think many folks will continue to run a 5 man unit of x2 trans arq rangers depending on if their primary opponent brings a lot of character psykers or reroll machines (4-5W target models or less). Those of us who face armies only with beefy opposing characters that wound require 2-3 turns of sniper fire to maybe kill will probably continue not bringing them.

Stick the rangers into a Stygies detachment, park em in cover, and they get to take advantage of not only a -1 to hit them, but also the +1 cover bonus. Give them a little bit more survivability in case your opponent panics as you remove a character on T1.

That certainly works. I fully intended to use Stygies (my custom Forge World favors stealth and range. They even wear green cloaks!). I wasn't intending to use the Jezzails instead of the Arquebuses, I want to use them in addition to them. Especially with that -1 to hit from Stygies. Sticking them in cover and having them snipe at stuff while giving them a -2 to be hit and +1 for Cover would be nuts. But honestly, at that point I might just be better with a Ballistarii. And at that point I would be overcommitting to ranged. Taser Lance Dragoons with Stygies will be pretty nice, especially if Stygies can do the Raven Guard sneaky deployment since that doesn't prevent movement. That same Strategem will allow me to drop in a squad of Ruststalkers. It still saddens me incredibly that Sicarians don't get some sort of bonus to charge. They are such cool looking models, but their rules suck so bad.

Clay_Puppington wrote:
Normally I deploy in a castle. Artillary core at the back, Dragoons in the next row, and vangaurd in the front line.

If someones deepstriking in 9.1" away and unloading on something, I'd rather they blast the cheap vanguard to bits (or be forced to charge into their overwatch). I lose less with them (both in points and in follow up countercharge effectiveness) having the vanguard die before dragoons rather than the other way around.

Any opponent I've had dropping stuff in, is launching purestrains, or plasma hhooters, or da jumping big squads of Boyz, or other heavy hitters, which are really just wasting themselves killing vanguard, but that's the only target I leave for them (if I read your deployment layout correctly, you're leaving the dragoons to die to the deepstrikes, and countershooting with your very healthy troops)

Those vanguard teams that live (on the side the deep strike doesn't happen, or somehow live through), then go on to accomplish stuff, like threaten objectives, or continue to eat fire. the ones that survive are why I will pay the extra 5 pts per squad over the rangers. If my opponent happens to not have a healthy deep strike, I then get left with more effective units to go do stuff.

Replacing them with Rangers, they have the same survivability against the shooting, and if they die, they die, sure. But those that live then go on to not contribute as much as the more mobile vanguard, nor can they then really assist my dragoons or whathaveyous in a countercharge due to not having the -1T aura the vanguard put out.

Either way, my troops are there to fulfill unit requirements, and protect everything else against deepstrikes.

Rangers and Vanguard will die just the same, but Vanguard offer more if they live, and I'd rather lose them first than dragoons (which if I used the same way you're suggesting, would die to plasma or rough melee, leaving my rangers/vanguard there to try to actually kill things in minimum squad size, rather than the other way around).

I would argue you are doing it wrong. I deploy screening units according to their ability to cover ground, not their durability or ersatz importance. If I put Vanguard out in front, they have to cover a larger area with a smaller body size and less movement. This makes them less capable of stopping threats that are much faster than they are. Same goes for Electro-Priests: I would keep them closer so that they can act more with more timeliness.

If my opponent wants to shoot my Dragoons, they are free to do so. That's what they're for. If Vanguard were standing in their place, it would not change matters except that the Vanguard aren't as capable as Dragoons in intercepting things like Rhinoxes. Forcing them to disembark as far away from your artillery as possible is important.

The only time I castle is against something like Tau, in which case I make a huge box along the table edge with zero space for a Commander to stand. There's no point in using anything to screen against units that move so fast and fly.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
That is why I skip them altogether.

Which is all cool until you have to play an objective game and 1 orc boy beats 6 dragoons as he has objective sercured :/

Either way, I think rangers are better than vanguard now as they offer more bodies for the price. They do very similar damage.

Also, I think Heavy Arc is a typo too, now that you mention it xDD

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
That is why I skip them altogether.

Which is all cool until you have to play an objective game and 1 orc boy beats 6 dragoons as he has objective sercured :/

Either way, I think rangers are better than vanguard now as they offer more bodies for the price. They do very similar damage.

Also, I think Heavy Arc is a typo too, now that you mention it xDD

Well, your artillery should be clearing those objectives. But yes, I think it is safe to say that every army now will have at least a Battalion with 3 Rangers to access the 3 CP.

But here's something I've been tinkering with:

This list is a prototype at 1957 points. I have been thinking of ways to minimize the number of dead points in my armies.

Note how there are two large detachments here. Mars for shooting and Stygies for durability. In the Mars detachment, Cawl and an Enginseer with Autocaduceus provide the repairs; in the Stygies, Cawl (who repairs all AdMech) and an Enginseer. I may try to find room for a Datasmith too. I divvied up my Crawlers according to my experience and Mathhammer. Icarus needs rerolls to make them effective against non-Flying, so they are an auto-include in the Mars list, as are the Kastelans. The Neutron Crawlers benefit more from the Stygies dogma since they usually do trades with other 48" artillery, such as shooting transports--Razorbacks, Rhinoxes, etc. 3x5 Rangers serve as bubblewrap for the Kastelans; they are in Mars simply to fill a requirement. In Stygies, 2x2 Dragoons act as a mobile screen, and 1x3 Lascannon Ballistarii for more anti-tank. These Ironstrider units are deployed last to exploit a potential Deep Strike into the enemy backline. I probably will do it with two units of Dragoons forming a "wedge" in front of the Ballistarii to force deepstrikers outside of the 12" radius for the Stygies dogma.

Thoughts?

Suzuteo wrote:

Thoughts?

I think this guy gets it.

Could you squeeze in a Knight?

Not sure about Neutron without Cawl. Missing those shots without a re-roll feels reaaaaally bad

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Not sure about Neutron without Cawl. Missing those shots without a re-roll feels reaaaaally bad

it's worked for me so far. and now we have a strategem that gives them +1(or is it +2 to hit) when they start with a 3+ to hit anyway. what really feels bad is rolling 1 for the shots.

I will NEVER spend 1cp to upgrade a single onager's To Hit. So that's irrelevant.

 axisofentropy wrote:

Suzuteo wrote:

Thoughts?

I think this guy gets it.

Could you squeeze in a Knight?

Eek. That one I have been unsure about. I don't think simply adding a Knight has much value any more. Fact is, there are so many strong synergies that result from having a large amount of CP, so you would have to do the same with the Knights.

In essence, we're looking at something stupid like this:

Basically, two sacrificial Battalions to serve as a screen for melta and plasma troops early on. Graia for durability and the Mitre for +1 CP. All those HQs babysit the Knights while you spam Rotate Ion Shield, Knight of the Cog, and Machine Spirit Resurgent to your heart's content.

I also consider doing two full-dakka Knights, but I doubt that would get the value we need out of them. Getting into CC is the way to go.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Not sure about Neutron without Cawl. Missing those shots without a re-roll feels reaaaaally bad

Sure. But these are the trade-offs we are considering.

Lose 1 CP and one Enginseer's repair OR pay 52 points and lose one Enginseer's repair to replace -1 to hit at 12" on those Crawlers with Cawl rerolls.

Then again, I have 43 free points. If 9 get freed up, it's a no-brainer.

Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.

 Kandela wrote:
Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.

What you gain is 52 points to use somewhere else.

What you lose is 2CP, the data smith's combat ability which isnt terrible, and the ability to go back to aegis for late game moves. I rarely want to be stuck in place on turns 6 and 7

It depends what you're spending those 52 pts on. If it's just 5 vanguard, don't bother. If it means you can upgrade your Knight to a crusader then it might be worth it.

Silentz I believe the immediate robot switch costs 1cp

It is really annoying that we need at least 2 vehicles in every detachment or we'll feel bad about the useless Enginseer

Suzuteo wrote:

Well, your artillery should be clearing those objectives. But yes, I think it is safe to say that every army now will have at least a Battalion with 3 Rangers to access the 3 CP.

Eh. I'm not going that route currently. Wasting 202pt for 2CP isn't really worth it in my book.i would rather have more substance. Most of my lists have 5 or 6 CP, depending on build, which is enough to do the basics (Wrath, Deep Strikes, Binharic). And I still screen with 3-4 Stygies Dragoons so thie mediocre Skitarii aren't a big deal.

ObSec is great, but I can't see it being a big deal. I usually wind up on a few in deployment, so as long as I blast them off theirs and take a few strays I should be good. This has worked well so far, at least.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kandela wrote:
Do you guys think it will be worth it for one unit of Dakkastelans to skip Datasmith altogether and just use Bhinaric Override to turn into deathball turn 1? I could see it working out great, just have to position them in good spot.

Most of my games I deploy them where they wind up staying all game. At this point I am heavily considering dropping the Datasmith, since usually all he does is swap to Protector and then repair. With the Enginseer and Binharic, I see no point unless I am tight on CP.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It is really annoying that we need at least 2 vehicles in every detachment or we'll feel bad about the useless Enginseer

i mean.... onagers and kastelans are both vehicles so....

gendoikari87 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It is really annoying that we need at least 2 vehicles in every detachment or we'll feel bad about the useless Enginseer

i mean.... onagers and kastelans are both vehicles so....

Yeah, but you alwyas want them to be Mars :(

Sad sad

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

gendoikari87 wrote:

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
It is really annoying that we need at least 2 vehicles in every detachment or we'll feel bad about the useless Enginseer

i mean.... onagers and kastelans are both vehicles so....

Yeah, but you alwyas want them to be Mars :(

Sad sad

actually with the new auto switch protocol i'm thinking agrapinaa hitting on 5 means average of 10 dead marines from a squad of 4 kastelans so pretty much whole squads of marines, so playing MEQ shouldn't be a problem. so unless the protector protocols got changed so you can't double fire on overwatch they should be good all by themselves. throw in an HQ or two to help mop up and that's a nasty surprise.

The more I think about it, the more I want to give out "activity" artifacts to the Enginseers. So they have something to do other than fix. Like re-roll for skitarii and surround him with a bunch of dragoons. Since it says "friendly skitarii", I can put it on an enginseer in the Lucius Detachment and have him just stand arround the Stygy Dragoons and Lucius Vanguard. And the other repair enginseer can have the re-roll canticle warlord trait.

Skiitari is just the vanguard/rangers/dragoons/ballistarii? maybe the sicarans?

Hi guys.

Just an idea.

I recall Suzuteo had a fun mechanised vehicle list that was heavy on the onagers with dragoons for screaning. The list accommodated a barebones knight Crusader.

Now knights are no longer sensible from what I gather. Would a list using dragoons for screaning in maybe a battalion formation with Cawl and nuke Daka bots(5-6) work?

Could you still use a knight Crusader and just dragoons for screening with a couple of neutron onagers or would this list be too fragile?

Cawl
Enginseer
Dakabots(5-6)
Knight Crusader
Neutron onager
Neutron onager
Some dragoons...

I love using a knight but wonder if Is it time to put the knights back in the box?

Yeah, Knights just seem underwhelming as they get no goodies from the codex without paying CP. (yes, you can repair them for 1 hp, woweee >_> )

I'd honestly expect Knights to still get their own codex as you'd figure they'd get Relics and stuff.

Oh, that's a shame. Whoops for buying one recently. That's a £100 that could be better spent on robots

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Yeah, Knights just seem underwhelming as they get no goodies from the codex without paying CP. (yes, you can repair them for 1 hp, woweee >_> )

i mean 24 wounds at toughness 8 with minimum 12 D3 damage attacks at str 8 and ap -2 isn't bad. then you add the guns.....