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Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Manchild 1984 wrote:
8 hits wounding on 5+ not good enough?
seems better then 4 hits wounding on 4+

You have *2 attacks *2/3 wounding *2/3 armour penetration (8/9 or 89% of your regular damage when you downgrade to whips), so you always do less damage and with +1 Strength Stratagem the non-whip can do a bit more damage. Either way, Dreadnoughts do not die to Wraiths. You want Heavy Destroyers, Warriors or Doomsday Arks.
   
Made in fi
5th God of Chaos (O'rly?)





Vs dreads it's dead even but without cp spending. Better vs death guard infantry. Albeit it's niche but with all -1 flat 2 has lost it's appeal a lot to a point even d3 can be preferable.

2022 painted/bought: 227/322 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

tneva82 wrote:
Vs dreads it's dead even but without cp spending. Better vs death guard infantry. Albeit it's niche but with all -1 flat 2 has lost it's appeal a lot to a point even d3 can be preferable.

ye, d3 -1 is 1/3+1/3+2/3 which is more then flat 2 -1

Im not a believer of having 6 very specific units for every case. I want a plan B for every unit I take.
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

Hey guys.

In my opinion mephrit gaussbikes are our best/ most reliable shooting. I’m also expecting health points drops. 36 ish points is costly and don’t you dare compare them to things outside our book because...

I was wondering about a direct comparison to destroyers and heavy destroyers output. Could someone run the math for me?

The bikes have the advantage in range, mobility, consistency (pending math) and are a much less valuable target to an opponent than heavy destroyers. Bikes can have a 5++ without support.

Bikes can expect the extra ap but not the destroyers.

High volume of strength 5 ap3 shooting that ignores all the -1 dmg which seems to be getting pretty popular.

Not ideal going into heavy armor but 28 shots (I like squads of 7) hitting on 2’s wounding on 5’s with disintegration capacitors auto wounding... seems more efficient than a doomsday arc hoping to get lucky or heavy destroyers trying to play peak a boo with targets that outrange them.

What do you guys think ?

I was all set to give me old destroyers a run but couldn’t get over the 24” range or the points cost.

Reasonable that both units would get points drops so let’s compare them to each other now and see what happens?

Cheers

All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

AP-3 Gauss is good for shooty Necrons. In general I like melee better.

I put the bikes in my meme list on christmas eve, without gauss. https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802653.page

I will not do mathhammer till point changes come in.

I bought neither of the destroyers, I think Immortals are overlooked a bit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/03 21:15:48


 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






Killing 5 Tactical Marines costs 280 pts for Tomb Blades, 290 pts for Destroyers.

Killing 1 Drukhari Raider costs 560 pts for Tomb Blades, 320 pts for Destroyers.

Killing 1 Dreadnought costs 450 pts for Tomb Blades, 410 pts for Destroyers.

That's with Tomb Blades in RF, no Mephrit. Gauss blasters are not anti-tank, they are anti-Marine. Gauss cannons, gauss destructors and gauss blasters have different roles, each outperforms the others at its intended task of killing light vehicles, killing Dreadnoughts and killing heavy infantry.

Some numbers to keep in mind:
*Destroyers hit 17% more than Tomb Blades.
*S6 increases damage against T5/6 by 33%/50%
*Damage D3 is an average of 2, but will leave a Marine alive one third of the time for an average damage of 1,33 and will do 2 damage to a model that reduces damage by 1 one third of the time for an average of 1,5.
*Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/03 21:18:14


 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

 vict0988 wrote:
*Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.

1/n where n is the numbers missing? seems correct
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

Thanks for the math.

I did say that bikes are not ideal going into heavy armor.

I said I think they’re the best shooting UNIT we have. All around.

The lethality seems pretty comparable. The points might be the same for killing marines but the bikes can go get those marines from almost anywhere. The destroyers have to be deployed somewhat close and have to worry about exposing themselves. Heavy destroyers don’t want to play that game. Volume is more consistent than quality in such an instance. (Right?)

Are you really killing a meaningful amount of raiders in any necron list? Before they do their job? How tailored would you have to be?

The bikes having volume of fire, with the autowounding strat and the mephrit strat for 3 mortal wounds don’t really have a target they just hate shooting at.

Destroyers into a screen or marines doesn’t feel so great. Destroyers into anything -1 damage or anything with a good invuln, doesn’t feel so great. I can be ok wounding up to t8 on fives with a fistful of dice. Probably with the same ap (though not a given).

The breakpoint of wounding t3 on 2’s doesn’t feel substantial because what’s t3 that you want to shoot with destroyers? Heavy destroyers will be wounding t5 elite infantry on 2’s but youve only got three shots, decent ceiling low floor.

I guess heavy destroyers are about the very last thing a unit of ork buggies (t5 right?) wants to see but that’s pretty niche and there is a fair chance of good counter play (non los or just fast).

The bikes can go kill a unit off an objective and then hold that objective. Either with ap-3 or obsec, you’re getting things done. Go ahead and shoot me, I like it. Actually have a chance of reanimating and the -1 to be hit helps you get to roll for it. Same t5 but I’ll always have my 5++.

If in relentless expansionists, turn 1 they would have Pre game 6” plus 1 each for relentless March and sudden storm on top of their 14” move. 22”+d6 and you could pop their strat to maybe get a cheeky character snipe or ace a backfield objective holder, or open a spot for a deepstrike or murder the hell out of a screen. If you had a min squad that could be some serious bad touch potential.

The destroyers/ heavy destroyers just get to sit there looking cool hoping for good targets. They have good movement but they only care about cover and angles, they don’t go do things. It’s hard to pass up the buff bots (overlor, destroyer lord, maybe a techno)for destroyers or heavies which are all great but expensive and shoehorn you into a play style. The bikes only want +1 to hit and a slap on the ass and are ready to go do work. If we are talking about a ccb then he gets to go around doing things with the bikes or just being a maneuverable asset. Overlord on foot makes more sense for the destroyers but now he’s static.

I feel like there is a much greater chance of playing into a list that has not much armor than not much infantry. Vs a parking lot? We’re in trouble regardless and only going to win by playing objectives.

I’m not saying destroyers or heavy destroyers are bad I just don’t think they’re as good as bikes. I think a lot of people are kind of sleeping on bikes. (The models suck)

There would clearly be room for both destroyers/ heavies and bikes in the same list but now we are getting into gun line territory instead of being complimentary, especially with the support that turns the destroyers into monsters.

In such a list I imagine the destroyers would do more damage into favorable targets but that you would get much more value from your bikes. If there wasn’t heavy armor on the table then it doesn’t feel like much of a discussion.

Next to an overlord, destroyer lord and maybe a technomancer, a unit of destroyers and a unit of heavies all hanging out within range of each other and a juicy target(s)... it doesn’t get better than that. If you’re wanting to be able to delete any one thing in any one round of shooting that’s your best bet. That sounds like 8th edition though.

Incredibly resource intensive. That’s your whole hq contingent, way lots of points, creates a very valuable target for your enemy that pretty much needs a screen and hopefully the mission allows for castles.

You HAVE to have units to play the mission. You do not always HAVE to have (ranged) anti tank. Clearing screens and knocking small backfield units is going to be needful much more regularly than pure anti armor.

If the destroyers were d3+1, had range 30 without such sticker shock I think I’d maybe feel differently, they just arnt good enough at what they’re good at and don’t bring anything else to the table. Glass hammers to the max.

Happy to be “proved” wrong I just think the bikes bring a lot of non quantifiable elements and are right up there in the damage output department. Much more flexible.

Cheers.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/01/04 00:49:25


All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in de
Ladies Love the Vibro-Cannon Operator






Hamburg

 Manchild 1984 wrote:
 vict0988 wrote:
*Going from 3+ to 4+ Sv increases damage by 50%, 4+ to 5+ increases damage by 33%, 5+ to 6+ increases damage by 25%, 6+ to 7+ increases damage 20%.

1/n where n is the numbers missing? seems correct

Erdös said n is a number.

Former moderator 40kOnline

Lanchester's square law - please obey in list building!

Illumini: "And thank you for not finishing your post with a "" I'm sorry, but after 7200 's that has to be the most annoying sign-off ever."

Armies: Eldar, Necrons, Blood Angels, Grey Knights; World Eaters (30k); Bloodbound; Cryx, Circle, Cyriss 
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Maine

@Cauthon

I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.

I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?

God is real! 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
@Cauthon

I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.

I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?

you could do the all invul route with wraiths and Lychguard. Heavy Support not needed I don't think. Maybe the Command Barge.

Making a list before point changes is futile.
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Maine

So what, do we just not play the game until the rules team makes an update?


God is real! 
   
Made in gb
Furious Raptor




Play a better faction in tournaments is what I do and just roll out the Necrons for the lulz occasionally. The main thing is I'm not buying/building/painting new units based on power, just on what I want in my collection for the future. They'll come good eventually right?

Tomb Blades vs Warbikers is a good example of where the Necrons are lacking.

A 25 pt Tomb Blade has a BS3 18" Assault 6 S5 AP0 gun and has WS3 1A AP0 in melee. Defensively it is -1 to hit 2W 4+, res protocols and living metal. And a Ld of 10.

A 25 pt Warbiker has s BS5 18" Dakka 10/6 S5 AP0 gun (half the BS but "twice" the shots) and has WS3 3A AP1 in melee. Defensively it is -1 to hit 3W 4+. Ld 7. Also has re-roll charges. The Nob also has +1S +1A +1W.

But, then you start looking at chapter tactics, Eternal Conquerors/Relentlessly Expansionist is probably better, but I think I would quite happily try out Freebooterz / Goffs / Blood Axes / Deathskulls / Snakebites (replace SQUIG with DESTROYER) as Necrons. Deathskulls are Szarekhan with obsec for Skorpekhs and Lychguard.

And then you look at super doctrines, Command Protocols (good luck staying within 6" of a character with your 14" move Tomb Blades) vs Waaagh (lets not have Ghaz call it and you just pick between two turns of either global range +1A melee or -1AP shooting). That is the issue Necrons have, they are missing that extra layer of free rules strength as their rules were so poorly written.

It is fixable. They are missing free rules, so the solution is a points drop to compensate or the most OP factions all getting points increases.
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Maine

To that point, doesn't command protocol activate in the command phase? So we can assume being within 6" T1 is no problem. WAAAGH only lasts 2 turns (the second one being less effective). So it seems like it is pretty equitable to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'm with Cauthon, I think that TB's are a slept on option for Necrons. They offer alot of what seems to be lacking in the codex (again, this is from the perspective of someone who doesn't play Necrons, so take all this with a hand full of salt lol) which is speed.

When I proposed the idea of my ork biker spam to my other community, people aid it wouldn't be good for various reasons. But currently, I can't play it at my FLGS because no one has an answer to it and I don't want to be a WAAC TFG

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/05 18:31:26


God is real! 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
To that point, doesn't command protocol activate in the command phase? So we can assume being within 6" T1 is no problem. WAAAGH only lasts 2 turns (the second one being less effective). So it seems like it is pretty equitable to me.


Command Protocols are declared start of each battle round, but the unit has to be within 6" of a character when that protocol is useful. So T1 Sudden Storm can be decent for that +1" move, but after you've moved away from your characters it's not as easy. Ones like Vengeful stars don't care if you started within 6" of a character, it cares if you are still there when you're shooting.

Waagh may only last for 2 turns, but the boss that declares it could be sitting in a corner while the boyz, bikers, and other units are all in the front lines. They don't need a babysitter character to get their rules.

There's also something to be said for actually having the Command Protocols arranged in an order that actually benefits you. Hungry Void is worthless if nothing is even able to make it to combat that turn, and that's something you have to decide before the game begins.
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
So what, do we just not play the game until the rules team makes an update?

you can play the lists you already have, but it's not the best time to innovate.

Tomb blades are good, but cannot retaliate in CC even with counteroffensive cause no attacks.
Comparing them to Orks seems weird to me.

Immortals and Tomb Blades seem both good to me. Better then all long ranged perhaps.
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:
@Cauthon

I'm new to playing necrons, but I play against them quite frequently. And with that experience I tend to agree with your point. Bikes are durable, fast, and shooty. Whereas they may not be the best in any of those departments, the fact that they possess all three means that they have value, especially if they are spammed.

I spam the Ork bikes currently. Their stats are pretty comparable with Tomb Blades, the notable exception in their favor being they are 3w, but I think that is countered by the fact that they have low BS and LD. (Same points cost btw). People don't know what to do with the speed and durability in their face T1. I'm planning on building a similar necron list (27 tomb blades as the core) but I'm not sure what else I should be looking at the back it up. Ideas?


If I was going heavy into bikes like that I would consider taking an outrider to also have wraiths and some scarabs. The wraiths have similar move as bikes but are more durable and have a little chop to them. If you had a mind to, a unit of wraiths and a unit of bikes, with their t1 +2 movement, you could really put a lot of pressure on a flank turn one. You could also deploy balanced and then jump over to one side or the other t1 leaving a cpl enemy units doing the travolta meme.

They go do a thing, make your opponent react. next turn you still have two squads of bikes to go out and get something done. (Because phaeron is buffing two units at a time, missiles away x2)

Scarabs are a wonderful backfield objective holder and zoning. Cheap as chips, ton of wounds and a huge footprint.

I would look at something like an outrider with ccb (reroll charges for core warlord trait) technos or maybe a chronomancer if you have the points (you don’t) 3 units of bikes, two units of wraiths a unit of scarabs. A unit of skorpekh to play linebacker, easy to hide but they move fast enough to be a problem solver, nightbringer and a squad or two of immortals for (new) rod.

Having wraiths and bikes for immediate pressure, your nightbringer and skorpekh can afford to chill so they can come out later in the game. If you can afford to just hang back with the nightbringer for a bit it really reduces the enemy’s ability to knock him out. He will be on their mind even if he’s not moving up the board. Your backfield scarabs have the option to keep doing what they do or you could bring them up to screen for nighty turn three perhaps. They are fast enough and don’t mind advancing if they go into screen mode.

None of this is really fun to shoot at. Your skorpekh would get lit up so they have to be cagey, if they have a 5++ and -1 damage, pretty not bad. They can easily ace a vehicle if need be but really can’t afford to get interrupted on.being able to move 8” in any direction plus charge (rerolling) you have a massive threat radius in your backfield while also threatening a center objective if there is one. All depending on cover of course.

It’s amazing how often my opponents think they HAVE to take out scarabs ASAP. Chronomancer makes that not appetizing and they will bring great value to your skorpekh when it’s their turn to dance.

You won’t have a ton of cp but you won’t need a bunch to make your army operate.

1 cp puts 10 immortals into strategic reserve. You will need the skorpekh to rod once. Feasible that skorpekh get both of your corners and the immortals walk onto the rest. Not the easiest but pretty doable. Especially if your bikes shoot out some of their zoning to make it easy to walk on. Engage and rod are my (and most peoples?) go to. Banners is out. If you don’t have the points for the immortals then you’ll have to do a no mercy secondary.

1 for the bikes advance and shoot strat if you want to blow someone’s mind with your threat radius.

1 or two cp for skorpekh whirling dervish

2-3 cp to let your bikes auto wound on 6’s

1 for a clutch nightbringer spell

1 or two to ignore cover.

Your mileage may vary but those are what I keep in mind.

I’d recommend 7 bike squads but I like where your heads at. The problem is they’re so damn clunky, you really can’t hide 9 behind anything. Gauss all day everyday.

If running a pair of bike squads with the ccb to roll around with the +1 to hit, a techno can spend to revive models in two squads and heal the ccb but you’d be counting on a misplay by your opponent to take wounds off two squads without killing one. You could get clever with your model pulling though. He can pretty much keep up, just don’t give him the relic staff of light so he doesn’t care about advancing. That’s a lot of points but it’s fast enough to work the flanks or just bail out if threatened

I’m pretty split on the dynasty. I’d probably go mephrit because your bikes are your workhorse but a pregame move for them would be tasty and jumping out 22 inches before charging with obsec could absolutely steal an objective they thought you couldn’t possibly. The mephrit warlord trait is a bit of a trap, you can buff the hell out of a ccb but it only makes it ok-ish in combat. Fair chance he’d get punked regardless.

My napkin math says if you want nightbringer that’s really going to cut into your secondary hq’s, would limit the bikes squad size a little. I think he’s a great compliment though. Scarabs can get dropped too, they’re just so cheap..

I think a list like this would be fun and you’d raise some eyebrows when you say you’re running necrons and pull this out, plays like elder lol. (Not really but kinda)

I have a competitive list in the forum that has a similar build, just no bikes.

Yeah points are going to change but you can still figure out what you WANT to run. Can come up with a play style you like or figure out what units you like. Hard to imagine some units going up in points, not like we have anything broken. I feel like if you came up with a list you really liked, you’re only going to drop in points. Not like bikes are going up in points while destroyers come down.. it’s all coming down. I could see scarabs going up, maybe? It’s not like they are going to drop destroyers down from 55 to 40 making me dumb for not taking them. They’ll be a lot more worth taking but I’m not seeing them go to an auto include because they still have real drawbacks besides their price tag.

Yes points changes are going to change things, they would have to do something insane like dropping warriors to 11 points before we had a net list to rule them all. Possible but not worth waiting on. See what you like, see if it works, see if it drops in points.

Cheers.




All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

Hard to imagine some units going up in points, not like we have anything broken.

I used to think that before the last update when ccb and the Chronomancer lance went up 10 points. And neither was broken.

Is the Chronomancer weapon worth 10 points?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/05 22:31:01


 
   
Made in dk
Pyro Pilot of a Triach Stalker






 Manchild 1984 wrote:
 Kaptin_Grubkrumpa wrote:

Hard to imagine some units going up in points, not like we have anything broken.

I used to think that before the last update when ccb and the Chronomancer lance went up 10 points. And neither was broken.

Is the Chronomancer weapon worth 10 points?

Why wouldn't it be? D3+3 damage is pretty great. The other weapon is cute but it doesn't really do anything. CCBs weren't being spammed, but I think Chronomancers were spammed to a degree, nerfing CCBs was the wrong decision, but if you don't think the weapon is worth 10 pts just take the other one.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

I believe in the rumor that wraith go up to 45. But i dont like it, wraith are pretty good.
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

I went ahead and wrote up that bike list.

All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

Cauthon wrote:
I went ahead and wrote up that bike list.


You'll enjoy it.
Make sure & magnetize/pin your weapons though. That way you're flexible as stats/pts/etc shift. It's a PITA to magnetize 81 sets of guns, but it's well worth it in the end.
   
Made in us
Tough-as-Nails Ork Boy





Maine

Cauthon wrote:
I went ahead and wrote up that bike list.


Well then?

God is real! 
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

Sorry I had posted it in the army list section.

Ccb- thrall, veil, gauss

Immortals x5
Immortals x5

Skorpekh x5
Nightbringer

Scarabs x3
Wraiths x5
Wraiths x5

Bikes x7 gauss, shade
Bikes x7 gauss, shade
Bikes x7 gauss, shade.

All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in us
Pyromaniac Hellhound Pilot






One thing they could do to help us a lot is to allow us to pick our protocols at the beginning of the turn like Admech canticles it is literally the same thing, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/07 23:04:54


   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




 CKO wrote:
One thing they could do to help us a lot is to allow us to pick our protocols at the beginning of the turn like Admech canticles it is literally the same thing, right?


The protocols need a complete rework for me. If you want an example of a good army wide special look at the Strands of Fate rule Eldar are getting. It's really fluffy BUT it's simple to unlock (just have a pure craftworld Eldar army), it's easy to use in game, it will almost always provide you with some benefit and that benefit (turning a dice result into a six) is strong. Plus it can't be switched off.

Compare that to command protocols:

Must be mono necron faction AND must have a noble as your warlord AND units only benefit if they are close to a character.

The buffs are mediocre at best and situational at worst and you have to choose them and the order of them before you know turn order. So difficult to use and get the best out of them.

Then, you can shoot characters to essentially switch off the army wide bonus.
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

Multi dynasty with Dynastic Agents as HQs might be the way for mixed strategies.

Im hoping for point reduction.. 120 point Szeras.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/01/07 23:45:17


 
   
Made in us
Nimble Ellyrian Reaver



Longmont, Co

I’m my opinion I don’t think szeras will get a points drop. He will have been highly represented in our tourney lists that do “well”.

Things that are powerful in our book may see slights points increase for the purposes of internal balance.

Which is how I’d explain the ccb and chronomancer getting slight points increases.

At the time both were total auto includes.

I’m having a hard time believing in a 15 point increase on wraiths. Yeah they’re really great now but there hasn’t been enough time between the rules update and whenever they adjusted our points for it to show up I’m tournament results. 35-50 points is a ginormous leap. Especially x 5-6 dudes per squad.

All of the things. Most of the time. 
   
Made in ch
Irked Necron Immortal




Switzerland

I heard 45 points, 50 would be in the unplayable range.
   
Made in de
Prescient Cryptek of Eternity






Germany

The leaked photos show 45 for wraith. All of our HQs need a 10% drop. Actually, our entire army needs a 10% drop. Protocols are useless, RP is useless on multi wound models.

I just dont understand why szeras is 160. He has two useless abilities. His buff is random (which is ridiculous for a necron with millions year of experience), he has no inv. A 160 pts. HQ with no inv ?? He dedicated his life to improve necrons, but he didnt improve himself ?
   
 
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