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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






The Land Raider is substantially larger than a Rhino, yet it can still only transport 10 Marines. Yeah, it has a bit more head room so it can accommodate Terminators, but that hardly explains how all of that extra space is being used. The Crusader somehow has room for an extra five Marines with some lame rationale on how the removed Lascannons free up gobs of space. I guess the solid rounds that the assault cannons and hurricane bolters use don't need to be accounted for.

Anyway, with the Land Raider generally being underused, I propose to increase the transport capacity to 20 Marines or 10 Terminators for all troop carrying variants. This would make them actually cost effective to use as transports and Terminators would finally have a vehicle that a full squad can fit into.

   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Yep, sounds like it makes sense. Of course, things arent always so simple. Here's a few examples:

Is the Land Raider transport capacity actually larger, as it is a tank and not just a transport? (fluff)
How does a carrying capacity of 20 help when most units of marines are capped at 10? (balance)
Would the pricing of these transports now be fair with this change, or are they still overpriced? (balance)
Would anyone put 20 marines in a land raider, or is it just too many points in one place? (realism)
   
Made in ca
Hardened Veteran Guardsman





Ottawa

Actually, I think what really caps off a Space Marines transport limit is not just basic capacity, but the ability to exit quickly while wearing armour. It may be it's "just" bigger enough for 5 Terminators, but not big enough to squeeze extra power armour marines in, seeing as 2 marines are somewhat bigger than one Terminator.

As for the Crusader, remember that the Hurricane rounds are kept on the gun mounts themselves, and the Assault Cannon rounds would use up little or no more space than the Heavy Bolter ones. Generators for Twin-linked lascannons are pretty big.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/01/26 04:12:57


 
   
Made in ie
Crazed Spirit of the Defiler




Ireland

Plus it only has 3 hatches. It'd be a squeeze to fit 20 Marines around the 3 of them staying within 2"

Also how many 20 man Marine Squads do ya see?

By the 37 keys of Tzeentch,We open the way for our brothers,
By the 1000 whispers of Slaanesh we call to them,
By the 12 plagues of Nurgle we fell their enemies,
And by the mighty axe of Khorne we cut open the world for them!

- Ritual of Summoning, Recited by Amphion and Zethus Dark Sorcerers of the Deimos Peninsula,Kronos


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut






open_sketchbook wrote:As for the Crusader, remember that the Hurricane rounds are kept on the gun mounts themselves, and the Assault Cannon rounds would use up little or no more space than the Heavy Bolter ones. Generators for Twin-linked lascannons are pretty big.

The rounds that are on the sponsons are just what they are currently loaded with. There would be crates of reloads that need to be stored. Also, if a Lascannons power pack is so frickin huge, why are they man portable? Devastator Marines with LCs seem to have no more to carry than those with HBs, MMs or PCs. The whole thing is a cocked up excuse so that GW can recycle a model kit and give it different rules without making any visible changes. Much like how a Demolisher has substantially better armor than a standard Russ while sharing the exact same hull design.


Voodoo_Chile wrote:Plus it only has 3 hatches. It'd be a squeeze to fit 20 Marines around the 3 of them staying within 2"

It's not hard to fit 20 models around, I can do it using just two of the three ports. It's not like you have to fit the entire model within 2", just any part of its base.

Also how many 20 man Marine Squads do ya see?

I forgot to mention, up to two squads to be transported.

   
Made in gb
Navigator




Great Land of the British Empire

You could add a rule that you can only dismount one squad at a time, but 20 (around 300 pts) marines in a single 250pt tank is risky if a lascannon gets in range.
550pts down in a single laser cutting shot (lovely)!!!!

As for black templars it would be better to be able to transport a crusader squad.

Best leave the 20 marine transport for Apcolayse games with large battles and lots of points

23rd Arcadian Desert Troops ≈ 800 points 1W/1D/2L

I don't need your satisfaction, just your damn money. XD

Mr. Burning wrote:
After consultation with the Blood God I believe it is pronounced as 'Brian'.


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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

I suppose 20 SM would work for an unarmed Land Raider.

Fluff-wise, the SM are sitting on each other's laps...

   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut




Well firstly like people have pointed out, the largest Sm unit you can buy is 10 models strong, join in an IC and it becomes 11.
So why would they design a transport that will most of the time be half empty?

True you would be able to fit in 10 termies wich I expect is the reason why you wish for the change...
So lets see, one landraider no bitz Xpts, 10 assault termies no bitz Ypts thats over 600 points just waiting to be blasted from the table. by one lascannon blast.

But lets now look at the difference between a rhino and a landraider.

A rhino is an armoured ATV, it has low armour opting for speed, maneuverability and cargo space in place of durability.

The Land raider on the other hand is a tank designed to be a tank that can play a minor role as troop transport unit.

If you look at the actual area that can be put aside for troop capacity you will notice that it is roughly the same size as a rhino.

As for comparing a vehicle mounted weapon with a carried one... well how many rounds does a bolter clip hold? ever seen many spare clips on spacemarines?

How about a carried missile launcher, sure he may have a few spare missiles on the model but does he have enough for a normal fight? No probably not.

Hand held weapons such as lascannons would use batteries, basically clips with X charges in them allowing the cannon to fire X times. Where do you think the SM's get them recharged?

Naturally vehicles using such weapons have larger generators allowing not only the vehicle to fire from the reserves but also recharge battleforces other batteries.

Having said all that

All of the above is pointless!

The reason for landraiders to have 10 transport capacity and 5 termie capacity is balance.

If you increase the transport capacity you will have to recalculate the points cost. Simply stating the unit is underused does not meen it is overpriced, this is a common missconception among many gamers. It may just as well be that somthing else is underpriced.

In reality I think that the main reason for landraiders not being used is the old 3+ army effect on our hobby.

As a large majority of all gamers play the 3+ army types (5 SM codexes, CSM, Necrons...) players tend to build their armies to face thise armies.
This meens there will be many high strength weapons in the armies, high strength usually meens good AP and thus vehicles that according to fluff should be all but indestructable will run a real risk of becoming flaming wrecks nine out of ten games at the first oponent shooting phase.

Thus if GW would stop pampering so damn much with SM's (atleast 50% of all WD articles are SM articles and almost 50% of the remaining ones are CSM articles) and do some serious work in eldar, dark eldar, orks, IG... we would see more players playing thise armies and thus get a more diverse games and thus the landraider would be more viable as a unit.

Im sorry about the rant but the point is still valid.

Stelek wrote:Dude, you cannot FNP MC CC attacks. I don't care how you "read" the rules. I even don't care if you are correct and GW says you can. lol
In short GW rulings are void!  
   
Made in us
Newbie Black Templar Neophyte




Dracula's Moon Base

If you really want to stick more marines in a Land Raider, just get a Crusader! Put an Assault Termie squad with Lightning claws in there with a Chaplain and assault anyone or anything on the board, god willing one of the 10 anti-tank weapons dosen't kill it in the first turn.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Long Beach, CA

I would say its bigger to be able to reinforce the armor.

"Do NOT ask me if you can fire the squad you forgot to shoot once we are in the assault phase, EVER!!!"

 
   
Made in us
Bounding Assault Marine



Long Island, New York

GuyWithHorns wrote:If you really want to stick more marines in a Land Raider, just get a Crusader! Put an Assault Termie squad with Lightning claws in there with a Chaplain and assault anyone or anything on the board, god willing one of the 10 anti-tank weapons dosen't kill it in the first turn.



The problem with that is you need to have 3 force org slots to get that config in the vanilla. I t desperately needs to be changed so that assault termies can use the LRC as dedicated transport.

Chappy~ HQ slot
Assautl termies~ ELITE slot
LRC~ HEAVY SUPPORT slot

It should be, an HQ in termie armor can have an assault termie squad as a bodyguard and a LRC as a dedicated transprt all from the one HQ force org. slot! Problem solved with more termies in a land raider!

War is not your recreation. It is the reason for your existence. Prepare for it well.
~CODEX ASTARTES

Give me a hundred Space Marines. Or failing that, give me a thousand other troops.
~Rogal Dorn  
   
Made in gb
Plummeting Black Templar Thunderhawk Pilot






Worcester, UK

The actual transport section on the Land Raider is not greatly bigger physically than a Rhino(but yes it is bigger) The majority of the LR size is taken up by its armour and cockpit.

Can only go with the Blood Angels Codex but it looks like Termies have been limited to max of 5. Don't know if it will be the same for the vanilla marine codex when re-released.

Instead of saying, increase the capacity by an extra 10xmarine and 5xterm, why not just increase it enough to accodamate 2xHQ charactors who may have joined the marine or terminator squad? Just a thought

 
   
Made in gb
Proud Phantom Titan







... odd always thought land raiders were fairly priced ... see as you can buy it as a transport and it is still a scoring unit. OK only one unit can be tranported but come the end (if it hasn't been ripped to shreds) means can capture an objective. Black Templars have it best the Crusader Squad (troop) can have LRC (with blessed armour ignorings the lancing rule), this leaves you 3 heavy support slots which you can fill with more tanks (have played a 1.5k mechanised only army, it was fun but completely out numbered ... draw if your wondering)
   
Made in ca
Morally-Flexible Malleus Hearing Whispers






Well I kind of moved near Toronto, actually.

they just aren't Lascannons, they are GODHAMMER lascannons. And they need POWER.

This thread wants me to get my mechanized Space Wolf army going again. Watch I'll make a whole thing and then Blood Claws won't be 10+ models anymore.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/04/18 21:42:34


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Made in gb
Navigator




Great Land of the British Empire

I reckon it should be able to add one extra capasity for an IC so that the Land raider could transport a full squad.

23rd Arcadian Desert Troops ≈ 800 points 1W/1D/2L

I don't need your satisfaction, just your damn money. XD

Mr. Burning wrote:
After consultation with the Blood God I believe it is pronounced as 'Brian'.


DQ:90-S-G+++MB+I+Pw40k(2)04+D++A+/areWD292R+++T(P)DM+ 
   
 
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