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Really, there's not that much wrong with the content and layout of the army list. A few minor tweaks would see it become a more viable force.

Grey Knights: Grey Knights have access to ancient and blessed technologies. Every Grey Knight's suit of armor has been passed on for generations. They are maintained with the utmost care, and the Grey Knights receive special attention from the tech-adepts of Mars. All Grey Knights wear either Terminator or Artificer armor, and thus all Grey Knight models have a 2+ armor save. All other current Grey Knight rules remain unchanged.
Note: This change is due to the fact that a Grey Knight Terminator (GKT) receives tremendous advantages for only 6 points over the cost of regular terminators. Frealess, S6 power weapons that actually swing at I4, Aegis, The Shrouding and Deep Strike all apparently are worth 6 points, using Terminators as a baseline. Regular Grey Knights are in my experience speaking with other gamers nearly universally considered to be good models with excellent offensive capabilities that die far too easily for their own good. The 2+ save is, I believe, a reasonable buff for the 10 points above and beyond the cost of a regular space marine.
Grey Knights are routinely teleported into battle, as their Battle Barges are of the most ancient and revered sort, and have dark age generators the workings of which have long since been forgotten. All Grey Knights may Deep Strike in any mission they are held in reserve. All Grey Knights may re-roll their deep-strike scatter dice.

Armory: Remove restriction on Justicar's weapon options. Allow full access to the armory for Justicars.
Digital Weapons: +1 attack on the profile at the current cost. Also considering a 15 point version that adds an additional power weapon attack at +2 strength and base initiative every assault phase.
Holy Relic: Cost reduced to 25 points to make it an attractive option.
Combi-Weapons: All 10 points.
All Needler weapons gain rending in addition to current rules.
Psycannons: Removed from Armory. New Profile: S6 AP 3 Heavy 2/Assault 2 36"/18". 25 points. Still ignores invulnerable saves. (don't freak; no more dual Psycannons in any troop GK unit!)
Incinerator: S6, otherwise the same (note that incinerator and psycannon both still replace the stormbolter and nemesis weapon as standard)
Hellguns/pistols: S4 AP6 24" Rapid Fire, Pistols 12" Pistol

Vehicle Upgrades:
Blessed Hull: Same as for Black Templars.
Unguents of Warding: Same function as current Blessed Hull.
Extra armor adjusted to 15 points.

HQ:
Inquisitor Lords: Strength 4. He's wearing power armor after all. Force Weapon is overcosted in the armory for inquisitors w/ S3. Access to a Psycannon.
Henchmen: --Acolytes have their armory cap raised to 30 points of wargear, allowing for some pretty interesting options. They are also psykers and have access to one psychic power each. Their base cost is increased to 10 points, and they get carapace armor as standard.
--Gun/Combat Servitors: Same weapon options. Armor save increased to 3+. They're robots. Come on.
--Warriors come with Scout Shotguns standard (Assault 2 S4 AP- 12")
--Sages grant one ranged to-hit re-roll per sage. Cost remains the same. No model can ever get more than one re-roll for any single roll.
--Mystics retain their abilities and have access to the following powers at the current point cost: Word of the Emporer, The Scourging, Banish Demon.
--Heirophants provide a stacking +1 leadership bonus to all models within 12". Cost increased to 10 points. May purchase an Eviscerator from the armory as the holy symbol of their order. *smirk*
--Familiars are unchanged.
Transport: All current options, plus Razorback.

Brother Captiain: Two wounds. Lose IC status and make a retinue mandatory at the current 2-9 Terminators. Brother Captains gain access to holocaust from the psychic power list and are treated as a normal psyker; the nonsense with a psychic attack affecting the whole squad is dropped.

Grand Master: To make this characer a less-optimal and higher game-point-level option, his retinue of 2-9 terminators is also mandatory. This is for balance purposes.

Elites:
Venerable Dreadnaught added. All weapon options preserved ala the current codex. Otherwise, exactly like SM Venerables.

Ordo Inquisitor: Gun Servitor option removed. Otherwise the same. Same transport options as ISTs. (note absence of access to psycannon compared to Lord)

Option for a Techpriest ala the Witchhunter Codex.

GKTs: Become 0-2. Brother-Captain same as HQ option.

Troops:
Grey Knights: Become 0-4. Special weapon options remain the same, except you can only choose one incinerator or psycannon. Justicar armory restrictions removed. Justicars gain access to The Scourging psychic power, and are treated like normal psykers. Psycannon 25 pts Incinerator 15 points.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (ISTs): Unit size becomes 6-12. Option for a Razorback transport in addition to the Chimera and Rhino currently offered. Rhino modified to match SM rhino point cost. Veteran Sergeants still cost 10 points on top of a normal trooper, but come with a power weapon/hellpistol as standard. Hellguns receive buff: S4 AP6 24" Rapid Fire. Pistols 12" pistol. Option to upgrade one trooper to a Gun Servitor with the same options as Gun Servitor Henchmen.

Fast Attack:
If the 5th edition leak proves accurate, this section could use some serious modification.

Orbital Strikes are moved to this section. All other current entries removed (with exception to the "By the Authority of the Emporer..." options from other force books).

New Fast Attack Option: A single Grey Knight or Grey Knight Terminator squad can be taken as a fast attack choice. This squad must be held in reserve, and may deep strike on any turn you wish (after the first) on a successful dice roll of 2+. They may assault the turn they arrive as long as they obey all the normal rules for shooting and assaulting.

New Fast Attack Option: Grey Knights often launch Dreadnaughts from orbit via drop pod and into the heat of battle to exert pressure where it is most needed. Up to two dreadnaughts can be purchased as fast attack choices and must purchase drop pods (in exactly the same way as the most recent dread-pod rules--forget them at the moment).

Heavy Support:

Purgation squads become 0-1 and are limited to 3 incinerators or psycannons. Psycannon 25 pts Incinerator 15 points.

Land Raiders brought in line with SM Land Raiders in every way.

Ordo Inquisitor: Option for combat servitors removed. Otherwise the same. Same transport options as revised ISTs.

-Edited for formatting and clarity.

Why not keep the point costs the same, but give the regular
GKs a cover save in addition to the power armor save and
the shrouding rather than just make them all statted out
as Terminators.

I agree. I think that if 1ksons have a 5+ (or is 4+) invun save and an ap3 bolter for 23pts. Then why dont GKs get an invun. Also yes on venerable dreads. Still makes no sense to me why normal space marine dreads are better than GKs.
I like the idea for the psycannon but i think alot of people would b*tch alot about an ap3 heavy2/assault 2 for only 25pts. maybe make a psycannon varriant like that for the dread.
I would like to the the armory open to the justicars as well and maybe not even everything but at least sacred incensce. Also with the ageis rule it should count as a psychic hood. Cause if it affects psychic powers cast on them then why not all psychic powers?
New stats for the hellguns would be cool but i dont think that will fly. Having access to a better trasnprot like the razor back would be cool and really helpful.
I agree about the deepstriking GKs and GKT to be able to assault the turn they arrive. Still not sure why that havent fixed that. If its something that GK use regularly then why can we appear ready to fight but oh wait no you cant stand still please and die.

I think the base 2+ save is better. The shrouding already has its own effect and I don't think it needs changing, but regular GK definitely need a 2+ save. I lose the vast majority of my own GK to simple, basic melee attacks and basic ranged fire breaking through the 3+ save.

The Ageis is also fine as is. Every unit shouldn't have a psychic hood.

As far as psycannons go, the fact that you can only get 1 per unit and 1 unit with three, it's a max of about 8-9, if you just try and get all psycannons, in any standard-sized list. And that leaves no room at all for your own armor or anti-tank needs. 8-9 psycannons at Heavy 2 AP 3 would be scary, true, but they are all in separate units, and with the other weaknesses such a psycannon-heavy army would inherently contain would mean they lose often and lose bad. Any balance GK heavy army under this revision would be less lethal than an Eldar army that contains two units of dark reapers, which can put out 20 Ap3 shots per round at 48". I use them often. I know the weaknesses and how much they can hurt.

This is balanced because in the Eldar version, you have another whole 1300 points of army backing up the reapers. In this version, your whole army would consist of 6 units of GK and 2 units of GKT, with 10 total psycannons. And no ranged anti-tank at all. No good. And that's the idea.

I included the unit caps because GK are supposed to be extraordinary and rare elite troops (which in this version they certainly earn their namesake), and to balance the AP3 psycannon. IMO an army taken from the Demonohunters book should include some of the cool Inquisitorial options, and the squad caps encourage that and make the GK seem even more precious.

Eldar have it better; they get a starcannon for the same point cost and it has AP2. And they can easily take eight in an army in fearless, neigh-invincible troop squads, on neigh-invincible vehicles, and in addition to two squads of Dark Reapers...

My issue with psycannons is the 17 dollar price tag...

See here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/206434.page

I think 2+ saves on 25 pt models would make the small elite, careful army that is grey knights into "LOLZ try and kill all mah 2+ save doodz" with tactics similar to the current falcons. Ya know, march out in front of the whole enemy army with impunity...and actually still be effective.

Yeah, i'll agree that it is easy to beat GK just by forcing 3+ saves, because they have so few models, but 2+ is just too much. There should be a 2.5+ save...

An invuln save would cut down on casualties, 4+ might be too much but maybe not. Maybe turn the shrouding into a hit modifier or something. Perhaps just a point decrease, someone compared GK to 1k sons which are 23. And well lets face it, 10 1k sons would probably demolish 10 GK. 1k sons might specialize in killing marines, but you don't see GK's killing tanks either.

Also I think daemonhunters need more anti tank in general. I hate seeing my bud with only a ML/TL-LC dread with weapons above str7...then it dies...then he gets boned. LR's are also not really points effective for just buying lascannons.

With a 2+ save half as many would die as currently...and GK still get pwned by:

Powerfists
Power Weapons
Terminators
Hardened Vets W/ Plasma
Basically all special weapons generally used
severe outnumbering
anything else with a 2+ save

not to mention that in order to fully utilize the GK proposed here, you'd pretty much have to be operating within 24" of the enemy, which is the red-zone. Terminators suffer from the same issue; a 2+ save is beefy but when you're in the thick of it...

So, really, instead of half a squad being taken out by rapid-fire, casualties on your 25 point models become manageable. You might even last until turn 6, still being outnumbered 3 to 1...

Haven't you ever fought terminators? They're a joke to kill unless they're in a land raider ride...

EDIT: Re: Mr. Wang:
That's an interesting discussion. I'd still like to know what you think about what you would say if I said...hey, let's try these rules and see if the GK work this way...

I'm still undecided about the Psycannon...it makes the GK that buys it a 50 point model, which is hefty, but extra killy plus a defensive boost might still be over the top. Who's in favor of keeping the normal Psycannon rules (it'd have to drop in points, though)?

Okay, AP3 psycannons are probably OTT.

Here's an attempt at rebalancing so that opponents would actually want to playtest this:

Changelog: Dropped psychic power access from acolytes. Dropped Acolyte armory cap from 30 points to 20, to exclude powerfists and psycannons. Psycannons return to normal with slight point decreases. Clarified that Purgation squads may not be chosen for Teleport Attack! Clarified that Dreadnaught Strike! was indeed for normal GK dreadnaughts. GK that are upgraded with a special weapon retain their NFW. Heavy weapon costs for Gun Servitors reduced slightly. Sages brought in line with rumored blast template rules. Iron Will modified to include any Leadership test.

Grey Knights: Grey Knights have access to ancient and blessed technologies. Every Grey Knight's suit of armor has been passed on for generations. They are maintained with the utmost care, and the Grey Knights receive special attention from the tech-adepts of Mars. All Grey Knights wear either Terminator or Artificer armor, and thus all Grey Knight models have a 2+ armor save. All other current Grey Knight rules remain unchanged.
Note: This change is due to the fact that a Grey Knight Terminator (GKT) receives tremendous advantages for only 6 points over the cost of regular terminators. Fearless, S6 power weapons that actually swing at I4, Aegis, and The Shrouding all apparently are worth 6 points, using Terminators as a baseline. Regular Grey Knights are in my experience speaking with other gamers nearly universally considered to be good models with excellent offensive capabilities that die far too easily for their own good. The 2+ save is, I believe, a reasonable buff for the 10 points above and beyond the cost of a regular space marine.
Accurate Teleporters: Grey Knights are routinely teleported into battle, as their Battle Barges are of the most ancient and revered sort, and have dark age generators the workings of which have long since been forgotten. All Grey Knights may Deep Strike in any mission they are held in reserve. All Grey Knights may re-roll their deep-strike scatter dice.

Armory: Remove restriction on Justicar's weapon options. Allow full access to the armory for Justicars.
Nemesis Force Weapons: All Grey Knights are granted one of these formiddable weapons. They are one-handed weapons.
Digital Weapons: +1 attack on the profile at the current cost. Also considering a 15 point version that adds an additional power weapon attack at +1 strength and base initiative every assault phase.
Holy Relic: Cost reduced to 25 points to make it an attractive option.
Combi-Weapons: All 10 points.
All Needler weapons gain rending in addition to current rules.
Incinerator: S6, otherwise the same
Psycannon: The same, except 20 points in the list, 25 from the armory.
Hellguns/pistols: S4 AP- 24" Rapid Fire, Pistols 12" Pistol S4 AP-

Vehicle Upgrades:
Blessed Hull: Same as for Black Templars.
Unguents of Warding: Same function as current Blessed Hull.
Extra armor adjusted to 15 points.

HQ:
Inquisitor Lords: Strength 4. He's wearing power armor after all. Force Weapon is overcosted in the armory for inquisitors w/ S3. Iron Will modified to include Leadership tests as well.
Henchmen: --Acolytes have their armory cap raised to 20 points of wargear, allowing for some pretty interesting options. Their base cost is increased to 10 points, and they get carapace armor as standard.
--Gun/Combat Servitors: Same weapon options, with Heavy Bolter=10 pts, Multi-Melta=15 pts, Plasma Cannon=25 pts. Armor save increased to 3+. They're robots. Come on.
--Warriors come with Scout Shotguns standard (Assault 2 S4 AP- 12")
--Sages grant one ranged to-hit re-roll per sage per player turn for any model in the unit, OR each sage may subtract 2" from the distance of a template scatter result per player turn for any blast weapon in the unit. Cost remains the same. No model can ever get more than one re-roll for any single roll.
--Mystics retain their abilities and have access to the following powers at the current point cost: Word of the Emporer, The Scourging, Banish Demon.
--Heirophants provide a stacking +1 leadership bonus to all models within 12". Cost increased to 10 points. May purchase an Eviscerator from the armory as the holy symbol of their order. *smirk*
--Familiars are unchanged.
Transport: All current options, plus Razorback.

Brother Captiain: Two wounds. Make a retinue mandatory at the current 2-9 Terminators. Brother Captains gain access to holocaust from the psychic power list and are treated as a normal psyker; the nonsense with a psychic attack affecting the whole squad is dropped.

Grand Master: To make this character a less-optimal and higher game-point-level option, his retinue of 2-9 terminators is also mandatory.

Elites:
Venerable Dreadnaught added. All weapon options preserved ala the current codex. Otherwise, exactly like SM Venerables. Just to be clear: no option for a pod.

Ordo Inquisitor: Gun Servitor option removed. Otherwise the same. Same transport options as ISTs.

Option for a Techpriest ala the Witchhunter Codex.

GKTs: Become 0-2. Brother-Captain same as HQ option.

Troops:
Grey Knights: Become 0-4. Special weapon options remain the same, except wording is changed so that GK that buy a psycannon or incinerator retain their Nemesis weapon. Justicars gain access to The Scourging psychic power, and are treated like normal psykers. Psycannon 20 pts Incinerator 15 points.

1+ Inquisitorial Storm Troopers (ISTs): Unit size becomes 6-12. Option for a Razorback transport in addition to the Chimera and Rhino currently offered. Rhino modified to match SM rhino point cost. Veteran Sergeants still cost 10 points on top of a normal trooper, but come with a power weapon/hellpistol as standard. Hellguns receive buff: S4 AP- 24" Rapid Fire. Pistols 12" pistol. Option to upgrade one trooper to a Gun Servitor with the same options as Gun Servitor Henchmen.

Fast Attack:
If the 5th edition leak proves accurate, this section could use some serious modification.

Orbital Strikes are moved to this section. All other current entries removed (with exception to the "By the Authority of the Emporer..." options from other force books).

New Fast Attack Option: Teleport Attack! A single Grey Knight or Grey Knight Terminator squad can be taken as a fast attack choice (not a Purgation Squad, though!). This squad must be held in reserve, and may deep strike on any turn you wish (after the first) on a successful dice roll of 3+. They may assault the turn they arrive as long as they obey all the normal rules for shooting and assaulting.

GK Dread becomes: New Fast Attack Option: Dreadnaught Strike! Grey Knights launch their Dreadnaughts from orbit via drop pod and into the heat of battle to exert pressure where it is most needed. Up to two Grey Knight Dreadnaughts can be purchased as fast attack choices and must purchase drop pods (in exactly the same way as the most recent dread-pod rules--forget them at the moment).

Heavy Support:

GK Dreadnaught removed from this category.

0-2 Purgation squads: Psycannon 20 pts Incinerator 15 points.

Land Raiders brought in line with SM Land Raiders in every way.

Ordo Inquisitor: Option for combat servitors removed. Otherwise the same. Same transport options as revised ISTs.

ColonelEllios wrote:I'd still like to know what you think about what you would say if I said...hey, let's try these rules and see if the GK work this way...

It's fine either way, but my preference would be to follow the GW lead to streamline / simplify (i.e. nerf) and reduce model cost where possible / appropriate / accordingly.

So if GK are "weak" / die too easily for their points, then I would conclude that the problem is that they are overpriced, and you should take more models that can absorb more casualties.

Also, I'm not a big fan of the wrist-mounted Stormbolters, nor the flathead jousting helms. So I wouldn't be adverse to seeing more substantive changes being made to the GK specifically.

What do you think about the following possible rule for psycannons:

Psychic Guns: Psycannons are powered by the psychic talents of their user. Once per game, a model armed with a psycannon can nominate the use of a special alternate profile to use for that phase for the weapon. (each psycannon never gets to use more than one special profile in any game, including abilities that allow "free shots") In order to use this alternate profile, the model with a psycannon must pass a psychic test. If the test is failed, the weapon cannot fire that turn. If a Perils of the Warp attack results, resolve it on the model that caused the attack (so roll each gun separately). All of these alternate profiles must obey all the normal rules for firing, passing the psychic test simply allows the use of the alternate profile (so roll to hit, wound, etc.).

Destroyer rounds: if Destroyer rounds are used, adopt the following alternate weapon profile: Heavy 2 36" S7 Ap1, Ignores Invulnerable Saves

Eviscerator rounds: if these rounds are used, adopt this alternate profile: Assault 3 24" S5 Ap3, Ignores Invulnerable Saves

Purgator rounds: if these rounds are used, use the normal profile but apply the following special rule: Units designated as "demons" receive no saves of any kind

EDIT: Updated the "revised" list above. EDIT (2): Add clarification that using special psycannon rounds counts as using a psychic power for that model for that turn.

We've been using them as R36" S6 AP4 Assault 4 for quite some time. They work with four shots. Don't need much else.

BYE