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Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Heroes:

-Vampire Lord
Master of the Black Arts, Forbidden Lore, Lord of the Dead
Extra Level, Black Periapt, Power Stone x4

-Vampire
Master of the Black Arts
Dispel Scroll x2

-Vampire
Avatar of Death, Flying Horror
Book of Arkhan

Core:

-15 Skeletons
Standard, Musician

-15 Skeletons
Standard, Musician

-12 Skeletons

-5 Dire Wolves

-5 Dire Wolves

-5 Dire Wolves

Special:

-12 Black Knights
Barding, Standard, Royal Standard of Strigos

-6 Black Knights

-6 Black Knights

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 84

I can cast with 12-20 power dice each turn plus the one bound spell. I can effectively focus on one spell with all my dice every turn, meaning that I can burn through scrolls faster than ever before. I have one flying S7 model running loose and the Knights have ethereal mounts and thus ignore terrain. The hammer unit's banner provides hatred against all enemies for the Wight riders and their steeds. Barding doesn't slow Black Knights so they still have M8, but it does cost 4 points per model.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/02/28 22:29:34


 
   
Made in us
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




dude just wait like two more weeks. the new codex comes out.

If Rampage Jackson was in warhammer, he would be an ork. 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






"Dude" you didn't even bother to read through my post. This is a list from the new VC army book. The new Vampire Counts have been out for a couple weeks now.
   
Made in fi
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






Espoo - Finland

Altough I don't have the book yet so I can't comment on the details yet, it seems that vampire lord with boosted casting, fast support characters + lot's of knights are indeed the basis of the new vc due the possibility of casting a zillion vanhels. And I even thought I need not get so many knights as a chance of pace to my chaos as I start a new vc army. Silly me.

...silence 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






What's the logic on Forbidden lore?

"I've still got a job, so the rules must be good enough" - Design team motto.  
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






This list is by no means final. I could also just as well go with a flying lord (on the 1 wound Hellsteed mount that you can't kill separately) that kills 7-8 of almost anything on the charge (4 flaming S7 attacks that hit on 3+, re-roll misses every turn, and you get extra attacks for every wound you cause before any saves are rolled) and protect him with a 2+ armour save and a 3+ ward save ranged attacks of any sort. He would also have Walking Death for 1 point of static resolution. He would then break almost all units in the game all by himself.

However, the casting lord is nice too. Forbidden Lore allows him to have all the spells in any rulebook lore (except life) or the lore of Vampires. In addition to all the spells in any lore, he knows Invocation of Nehek. This guarantees that he gets Vanhel's Danse for mass re-casts. He's only level 3 and even with the bloodline power Dark Acolyte that grants a second extra level he would only have four spells (and Invocation of Nehek) and not having Danse would be an unfortunate possibility. Spell Familiar no longer exists.

I'm also contemplating of taking four units of six or seven Black Knights instead of what the list has now. You simply can't underestimate the power of Knights with non-stop ethereal movement. It's sick.

The new VC book offers so many possibilities. All my other lists are based on Ghouls, because if you buy Ghoulkin (25pts) for one Vampire, all of your Ghoul units can move 8" before the game starts. This means that Vampires with 18"-20" movement can get off first turn charges, or alternatively you have moved your infantry core 16" towards the middle of the field. From there that 12" range for summoning new units of Zombies isn't limiting at all. Summoned Zombies and Vanhel's Danse is still hardcore. You just have to have 5 Zombies (or wolfs or bats) behind the enemy, ready to auto-destroy them when they break.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2008/02/29 17:05:28


 
   
Made in jp
Ship's Officer






The Land of the Rising Sun

I only read the WD so I´ll probably be mistaken but although they can be the-killer-unit-from-hell sinking 400+ points on a vampire lord sounds to me to risky, what if a cannon hits you.

M.

Jenkins: You don't have jurisdiction here!
Smith Jamison: We aren't here, which means when we open up on you and shred your bodies with automatic fire then this will never have happened.

Raxmei wrote:24ps is the range. 24". If that were the points cost then lasguns and plasma guns would cost the same amount and flamers would have a cost of "Souffle".

Every year Golden Week Tournament at www.nagoyahammer.com 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User





I would do my vampires like this instead:

1: Dark acolyte, avatar, book, talisman of lycni

2: Acolyte, fly, 2xscroll

1 power dice less, but all of a sudden 2x fast str7 attacks
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Los Angeles, CA

I hashed out the flying vs flying steed argument with a friend the other day.

We agreed flying was 100% better as you are able to join units and are therefore not cannon bate so easily. It lets you attack from a position of relative safety.

Call me The Master of Strategy

Warhammer
Army Strategy
Unit Strategy 
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






cypher wrote:I hashed out the flying vs flying steed argument with a friend the other day.

We agreed flying was 100% better as you are able to join units and are therefore not cannon bate so easily. It lets you attack from a position of relative safety.

100% better if it was free. Hellsteed isn't taken away from your bloodline points allowances, and you need to have infinite hatred+red fury if you want to be killy unless you're going to be wielding Dreadlance, and then you need a mount and not flight form. So, basically, you will need to spend 20 points on Avatar of Death, 30 points on Flying Horror and 50pts on Red Fury. You now have non-magical non-flaming S7 attacks and no re-rolls every turn and or no auto-hits. As a bonus you can join a unit in the beginning of the game. You will still have to spend points on Flayed Hauberk and a ward save, so I'm not seeing the gain here.

If I go the fighty route, I'll just take the 3+ ward save and smile while I make those saves against the odd one or two bolt throwers that might be able to draw LOS on me after I demolish one of their units.

1: Dark acolyte

In general the Dark Acolyte is a waste. You don't gain dispel dice, you only gain 1PD and 1 spell. The level 1 Vampires aren't there to be casting Vanhel's Danse. For that spell you either take a fully caster Lord, or Necromancers that get the Danse guaranteed and carry as many power stones as they can.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2008/02/29 22:11:37


 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Why 3 units of skelies instead of 2 larger ones? Also, why no champs? Some things can still kill vampies (Treemen characters with annoyance come to mind...) And no carts? They are great support.

Also, I like both the casty and kill Lords; 2 diferent theories, though. Casty may have trouble with things like HEs that can ASF and reliably kill lots of zombies, whereas killy can get in there and butcher. OTOH casty is safer v. dwarf gunlines.

Not sure I am sold on the ghouls- they seem waiting to get shot up. Skelies are cheaper for that. I guess as a fastball delivery system the ghoulies are nice. Those models are horrible, though. ;-)

-James
 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User





Jmurph: He need 3 core, wolfs doesnt count anymore.

Therion: Why then take extra power dice on the regular vamps at all? I think your list would benefit more from having two fast cc guys, or one vampire fully dedicated to cc and two necros...
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




To Miguelsan: By sticking your character in a unit, they gain an effective 2+ save (look out sir!) against cannons and such. With that many Black Knights running around, most players would rather knock one or two down before trying to snipe the enemy general. However, the new Black Knights can grow back, so maybe sniping the general is a better idea...

To Jmurph: I could be mistaken, but I do believe Invocation regenerates champions first, so he'll just grow one with magic rather than pay for one (since his Lord has Lord of the Dead.)

His list doesn't have much to kill Treemen. I'm sure he has enough magic to redirect them with zombies, though. It's a little trickier with Raise Dead due to the shorter range compared to the old Invocation but it's still do-able.

To Therion - if the Treemen do start to pose a problem I would suggest dropping two stones off your general for the Helm of Commandment, and giving your 12 Black Knight unit the banner of flaming attacks. WS 7 Knights with magical flaming lances stand a good chance of knocking a Treeman down.

Back to Jmurph - Corpse Carts aren't needed to support this army. The Black Knights will be too far away to benefit from the ASF. He already has buttloads of powerdice so the extra raising won't add too much. And he has magic defense down with 6-7 dispel dice and two scrolls.

Back to Therion - I like your list, Therion. The Vampires are a little fragile for my liking (no armour or ward saves) so a determined fast unit (Pegasus Knights, Hero on Pegasus, Nike lord...etc) could assassinate your Heroes quite easily. However, defensive gear takes away from their casting abilities, so I know where you're coming from. I'm sure you'll just hide them in a skeleton block behind the other two skeleton blocks, anyway. Good gaming!

Zoned
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Has anyone of you played VC before on a tournament level? Some of your questions seem little absurd.

There are no champions because the caster Vampires join the small Skelly unit with nothing. They stay right behind the large units. This has been called a Necrobunker for years. Secondly the Vampires need dice so that they can keep summoning new units of Zombies and making them big. Thirdly, 25 Zombies in the rear of a Treeman win combat every turn and all it takes is one 5+ cast to replenish the casualties. If the Treeman hasnt failed morale by turn five the Black Knights will bring two or three more resolution to the fight. Finally, if I should use a fighty lord on a Hellsteed, why should I worry about Cannons? He isn't a large target and thus can be screened. Warmachines are hunted down by massed wolfpacks, and if the boss does get shot during the game he would have a 3+ ward save to fall back on.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/03/01 18:32:00


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User





There is no need to be rude here is there? You posted your list here for comments after all.

With my combo your vampire would have enough pd for 1 raise dead/ 2 invocations as well as some mobile hitting power. But if you dont like it, dont use it.

PS. You should make your fast vampire bsb. Too good not to have, especially in a knight-heavy army.
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






Here's another version:

Heroes:

-Vampire Lord w/ Extra Level
Red Fury, Infinite Hatred, Walking Death, Hellsteed
The Balefire Spike, Flayed Hauberk, Wristbands of Black Gold, Book of Arkhan

-Necromancer
Extra Spell x1, Power Stone x2

-Necromancer
Extra Spell x2, Power Stone x2

-Necromancer
Dispel Scroll x2

Core:

-21 Zombies

-20 Zombies

-15 Ghouls

-5 Dire Wolves

-5 Dire Wolves

-5 Dire Wolves

Special:

-12 Black Knights
Standard, Royal Standard of Strigos

-6 Black Knights

-6 Black Knights

-6 Black Knights

Total Points: 2000
Total Models: 105

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2008/03/02 00:16:14


 
   
Made in se
Fresh-Faced New User





Looks very nasty indeed... although i would consider banner of the barrows over standard of strigos so that you dont have to pursuit/overrun.

Do you use barding on the knights?
   
Made in us
Elusive Dryad




I don't have the book, so feel free to disregard the following. However:

1) Why necromancers over vampires for casters? Points?

2) Yes, black knights are very good, but do you have enough killing power in your list? The lord, 12 knight unit
and flank charges seem to be what you're relying on to break your opponent.

3) There's a noticeable lack of vampires, which means a notable lack of marching. 16" ignoring terrain is unbelievable, but once you get out of the 12" of your vampire, you're going to be relying on the 3 Vanhel's you get per turn. Are you worried about getting too spread out? As such, I like your first character set up better; more magic to support your BK strike force.

Alternatively, you could make your casters thralls on steeds, increasing your hitting power, mobility with a loss in terms of casting power and dispell scrolls.

Have you looked at the rare choices? Knights of Blood Keep are too expensive and too easily diverted, but the Varg... is a fast moving vampire, and a combined charge from one of these and a BK unit would be devastating. I have no clue as to where to get the points, however. Finally, logic behind the 12 black knights? Getting a rank while maintaining maximum frontage?
   
Made in fi
Jervis Johnson






1) Why necromancers over vampires for casters? Points?

Points and other reasons. The lord costs 450 points without a mount, so imagine supporting him with three 200 point heroes. Way too expensive considering you don't even have monster mounts. Secondly, the Necromancers automatically get Vanhel's Danse Macabre, and can re-cast it. Hero level Vampires only get 1-2 spells and most likely won't get Danse.

2) Yes, black knights are very good, but do you have enough killing power in your list? The lord, 12 knight unit
and flank charges seem to be what you're relying on to break your opponent.

VC don't need killing power since they can summon new Zombie units and break people with them. However, the more real attacks they get the better. I want to spread out my offensive units, and that's why I have three MSU units, a large hammer and a lord.

3) There's a noticeable lack of vampires, which means a notable lack of marching.

No more lack of marching than in the previous edition. Who needs to march in the army except in the first turn? First I march into position because general is in the middle, and afterwards all I'm doing is charge moves.

Alternatively, you could make your casters thralls on steeds, increasing your hitting power, mobility with a loss in terms of casting power and dispell scrolls.

It would also mean the loss of a Knight unit or two, because of points issues. Necromancers only cost 100 points with gear, while Vampires cost 200 points.

Have you looked at the rare choices?

Varghulf is nice. I could run it instead of the third small BK unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/03/02 21:48:55


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




iowa

have the 7th edition miscast rules slowed down the Necrobunker ?
i tried to play it a few times but im just not a good enough player to pull it off.

When I'm in power, here's how I'm gonna put the country back on its feet. I'm going to put sterilizing agents in the following products: Sunny Delight, Mountain Dew, and Thick-Crust Pizza. Only the 'tardiest of the 'tards like the thick crust. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






I think [edit again] some of you [close edit] may be misinterpreting a rule or two.

First, there is a storm of controversy about whether barding slows the ethereal steeds or not... so clear that with your opponent first thing.

Second, IoN does add wounds back to a unit in a strict order, but you (Zoned) seem to assume if your unit doesn't have a champion, you can 'grow one' with IoN... but since you didn't have a champion to start with, I think I would call shenanigans if you told me you could grow one later.

[Edit] Now that I am home with the book in front of me, the wording of IoN is "wounds are regained in a strict order. First, the champion is resurrected..." which to me says if you didn't have one to start with, you aren't going to grow one later. Also, if you really want to be an ultrapicky RAW um, person, you could argue that no wounds can be regained on a unit until the the champion is killed since his wounds must be regained first. Clearly not the intent.

Therion, I like the first list, with the exception of the 12-strong unit of Black Knights. I think 2 more units of 6 would be much nastier, but that's a personal thing- I've started using smaller units of heavy cav, and it colors my thinking.

I like Forbidden Lore for one reason: when you end up facing another VC army, you can use every spell in the Lore of Light.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/03/05 03:49:36


He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in fi
Mighty Chosen Warrior of Chaos






Espoo - Finland

The light lore spell 6 is indeed quite tasty vs VC. Better save 3 dice for that war altar dispelling.

...silence 
   
Made in ca
Dakka Veteran




Yep, I was wrong on how IoN works, and I did preface my statement earlier by saying "I could be mistaken..." Thanks for the the clarification, Fellblade!
   
Made in us
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




Therion wrote:"Dude" you didn't even bother to read through my post. This is a list from the new VC army book. The new Vampire Counts have been out for a couple weeks now.


sorry man, i just looked at your first vampire, reconized the powers as stuff from the last book, and presumed you were using the old book, my bad. really srry.

If Rampage Jackson was in warhammer, he would be an ork. 
   
Made in us
Crazed Cultist of Khorne




O and just osme stuff that i thought looked good togeather, i dont have the book yet, so dont flame me too much if i sound stupid. The flying hellsteed isnt really necesary. People will realize it has a 20 inch charge range. What i saw some guys doing is moving the vampire and black knights within 8 inches, then using vanhels until he got it off and charged into the enemy. not a bad tactic imo. The banner of the barrows isnt a must for black knights, better with grave gaurd. The regeneration one, or the strigos one (which you have) is much, much better. Personally, i think the balefire spike is worthless unless you know your facing a treeman. a regular lance is fine as it is. Walking death is good, but im just debating the usefulness of it if you stick the vampire with a unit of black knights. If you dont put him in a unit its great, but if you stick him with a unit of knights, your gona be killing like 8 guys a turn+youll have the standard bearer, and maybe 2 ranks? (if you stick it with the 12 man black knight unit.) You'll also be outnumbering the unit your fighting pretty quickly, if they dont break before then. Solid list however. Just some personal opinions of mine.

If Rampage Jackson was in warhammer, he would be an ork. 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending





Houston, TX

Not to go OT, but fellblade, where is this storm of controversy coming from? I don't see any special rule in ethereal steeds that ignores barding movement reduction.

-James
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






It is over on The Warhammer Forum. It comes from the ethereal-rule wording that says no item or spell that reduces movement will affect ethereal movement, and several folks jumping on the notion that barding is an 'item'.

My personal opinion is that some VC players are trying to take a powerful rule and make it stupid, but it is possible that some folks are just pushing a foolish RAW interpretation as a matter of principle, to force GW to write tighter rules.

He's got a mind like a steel trap. By which I mean it can only hold one idea at a time;
it latches on to the first idea to come along, good or bad; and it takes strenuous effort with a crowbar to make it let go.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut



Odessa, TX

I think that it is actually a pretty defensable position that barding doesn't affect their movement speed. This book charges quite a bit more for barding and the way it is worded it seems pretty open to that interpretation. But frankly this agrument doesn't have anything on the one about whether you can cast Invocation into close combat.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




CanadianGreenskinofKhorne wrote: Personally, i think the balefire spike is worthless unless you know your facing a treeman. a regular lance is fine as it is.


The only way for a vamp to get a lance is take a magic one or take Dread Knight bloodline power. DK is 25 pts, a bit too pricey for the lance since he's taking a hellsteed. Vamps only have mount, bloodline and magic item options, no basic gear.
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






.................................... Searching for Iscandar

I'm confused. Where are you putting your power dice again?

You do know you can no longer stack other wizards dice into your most powerful wizard, right?

Just asking.

   
 
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