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Hi, I'm wondering what are your opinions on the combination of powerfists with furious charge (ie: on assault marines). The obvious default option for a weapon on vet sarges has always been the powerfist, but I'm wondering if it's still worth taking if I'm going to put furious charge on the squad as well. On the charge, an S10 powerfist attack will hardly be any different from an S8 powerfist, and the initiative bonus is lost as well, so it seems a bit of a waste. If I were to take furious charge, what should I put on the sarge?

Point of note, you add the +1 after doubling the strength, so it's actualy strength 9.

That aside, it is still totally worth it. The point of the fist is to deal with monsterous creatures and independent characters that you run into and even if you end up at strength 5, it's not anywhere near as effective as strength 8.

the S9 is definitely worth it, every time. especially against things like wraithlords, nurgle marines, and tanks.

I threw two Asp Champs the other day into a Land Raider. Between the pair of them they had 10 S9 attacks with 2 re-rolls.

Couldn't kill the damned thing. So depressing.

But anyway, yes, S9 is good for a squad as it means they can reliably hunt vehicles as well as smashing through infantry.

BYE

It is interesting to me that the Str(+1) is added AFTER the PF doubles your strength, but that it does not give you the +1 initiative(for a total of 2)....

All your answers are contained within the entry for Power Fists.

The first part says that the Strength is doubled before any additions are made, and the second says that they always swing last (or always swing at I1), regardless of any other factors.

I'm surprised people don't know this...

BYE

Right well whatever, S9 instead of S10 then.

So lets say I keep the powerfist instead of using other weapons, and I don't plan on throwing the fists at vehicles (they'd purely be hunting non-vehicle models..I plan on using specialized vehicle slayers for tank-busting)....should I just skip FC altogether and just go back to vanilla assault marines?

If you take FC, take TtFtT with it. With bolters true grit is better. Also, if you aren't hunting MC's or Vehicles, then taking a powerfist is like holding on to a primed frag grenade. A power weapon will nearly always get a hit or two, but with the power fist your opponent can just remove his casualties all sneaky-like and deny your big, bad fist the hits it so justly deserves.

Of course, this would make your army an assault army, and in this respect exactly Marines are horrible. They are terribly slow, and other than LR's an assault means spending a turn in the open.

A power weapon will nearly always get a hit or two, but with the power fist your opponent can just remove his casualties all sneaky-like and deny your big, bad fist the hits it so justly deserves.

You make it sound so easy. In practice, it's rarely possible to remove casualties so as to leave the PF-user unengaged. If it happens, it is usually due to the Marine player's carelessness.

yea as long as the powerfist wielder is part of the unit rather than an independent character.

Powerfist = Insurance

Nobody wants to have it, and nobody understand why it's such a big deal, until you have to use it.

Also, whats not cool about a giant FIST.

I am not disagreeing with taking a fist, in fact, i have lots of squads with fist Vet. Sarge's, but what i am disagreeing with is taking fists if you aren't taking them to kill MC or Vehicles. Against lo-tuff IGEQs a powerfist can quickly become rather redundant. Also, when fighting horde armies you risk your fistie-boy is killed before he gets any decent hits in.

akira5665 wrote: It is interesting to me that the Str(+1) is added AFTER the PF doubles your strength, but that it does not give you the +1 initiative(for a total of 2)....

It does - just not in the way that you think. It raises the wielder's Init by 1 (from 4 to 5 in the case of a marine), then the Powerfist lowers the init to 1.

Your viewpoint is too reductive. The PF is beneficial against many targets that aren't MCs or vehicles. ICs are a glaring omission. High T models that aren't MCs are another--a squad with only a PW could end up stuck in a fight with Plague Marines or Wraithguard for quite a while.

It's also a mistake to think that you will always be taking a PF "to kill [whatever]". Just as often you don't take the PF to go hunting, but rather to prepare for these things hunting the squad or other nearby squads.

True enough. Had forgotten the IC and insurance part. Personally i have a certain grudge against PF's (which makes me wonder why i have so many in the first place?) since they in perfect agreement with the fickle Dice Gods let me down on a relieable basis. They never seem to be worth the points.

until that hidden squad powerfist takes down a CSM lord or sorceror. when things like that say booya!

And then the rest of the time they are 20 points sitting in the middle of nowhere, with absolutely no use. Units that aren't supposed to, and suddenly find a use for the fist signal that you are in neck deep, possibly even in over your head!

That's why you don't put powerfists on things that will be sitting in the middle of nowhere, like Devastator sarges.

Fists do most of the legwork in assault. Squad of Marines charges, kills 2 opposing Marines. Then the Sergeant kills another 3.

How can anyone not see how good they are?

BYE

I know this question was more about Space Marines than PF in general, but I would like to add my 2 cents. I run Orks (who all get FC) with a good number of Power Klaws. My friends totally hate my Biker Nobs now after one extremely lucky Nob was able to single handedly take down two 5 man Necron Destroyer Squads while the lone surviving Nob from my Trukk Slugga Boyz killed his Necron Lord. They both had PKs, and that made all the difference.

I agree completely, what i appear to be arguing for is not to take powerfists just for the sake of insurance. Taking PFs on tac squads with a good chance of seeing CC is perfecttly reasonable. Assault squads should have one, on the sergeant or an attached character. Tac squads that can afford one should have one, but not all squads should have one, and if taking furious charge, fighting low tuff enemies like tau or eldar, taking a power weapon might be a better idea. But that's just my (probably strange and naive) view.

Yeah I recently wondered the same thing with my orks.

Power fists should always be taken in every squad that can have one. A competent enemy will be skilled in applying his strengths to your weaknesses. Expect any squad without a fist to get assaulted by a MC or Walker - because that is where they would be most effective.

Only in the rare case where you can be certain that your enemy is completely unable to engage a squad should you leave it vulnerable to attack.

If you always know who you are going to face (campaign, friendly group, etc.) then you might have a bit more leeway. But in tournament play you should be prepared for anything.

no it's still a waste of points putting th fist on every darn guy in the army, even taking vet sergeants for each squad in the list is a waste. many SM squads are mainly for shooting, so why make them have 30pts of unneeded stuff? the HB/plas squads and las/plas squads should almost never have those PF's in them. sometime the HB/plas, but never the las/plas. things in this game need to be single minded in purpose in order to fulfill their full potential. hence why splitting dev squads with 2 HB's and lascannon is dumb

Democratus wrote:Power fists should always be taken in every squad that can have one.

So... 6-man Las/Plas Squads and 8-man 4ML Dev Squads should all have Power Fists?

I don't think so. That's what's often called 'inefficient' or, perhaps more accurately, a 'gross waste of points'.

Powerfists belong in squads that are going to use them, not wherever they can be taken.

BYE

You don't always have a choice of which squad does or does not end up in combat - unless you are also moving your enemy's armies for him. I can't count the number of times a squad of bikers has run into the backfield under cover and then charged my devies. Or a Dreadnought drops in a pod far too close to my 6-man las/plas (behind the pod so the Las can't be used against him). Worse yet are the multi-wound flying units, like Flyrants or a Winged Chaos HQ...or Mephiston.

A single Dreadnought or IC killed in combat pays for a power fist many times over. Being prepared is not a waste of points, it is a wise use of assets.

Perhaps in the area where you play all the above mentioned things are rare. Maybe your enemies move in predictable ways. Or you might just be so brilliant that your troops never end up in a situation you didn't want. If so, then you are definately ready for the GT circuit.

if the enemy is taking the time to move those things all the way around our battle line then yes you might wish you had one, but i've never had that happen where lone anti tank units were assaulted by things that were unharrased. seriously how does the rest of your army get so far ahead of your back field that they can cover your own guys? my CSM front line of CC troops is never more than i'd say 36" away from my back field, and that's pretty far. usually they end up a lot closer, and for marines yours should be even closer to the back field as your main thing is shooting. also if you don't deploy crazy style you should be able to use you CC troops as herders while you move up. they form a screen in front of your own troops that pushes enemy CC troops to the sides if they want to reach the back field, and most likely your opponent will charge your CC troops with his. It sounds to me like your placement of troops, and maneuvering of CC troops is where you are lacking, not in PF's for dev squads, because that is always a waste. any experienced player will tell you likewise.

In answer to the origional question, when I have Furious Charging assualt troops, I have about 2/3 fists, and 1/3 power weapons. Powerfists are better in general, but if you have 6 assualt units in an army, a couple of S5 I5 power weapons are nice.

If you take furious charge and lots of powerfists anyway, IMHO, then you waste the FC. The difference between S8 and S9 is squat, unless trying to knock out AV 14 vehicles. And if it's there for insurance, then gods why? Take a trait that is more useful in that case. For example, if you want to avoid two disadvantages, take Take the Fight to Them instead. Having every single tac squad member have the option to switch his bolter for CCW/BP for free far outweighs the extra (and redundant) point of strength and wasted +1 Ini.